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The State of SE: My Thoughts

Discussion in 'General' started by iN5URG3NT, Feb 20, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    I kinda see a use for Workshop videos too but... the one and only time i opened it i was greeted with bugged controls where i had to press Alt to use the editor... which kept Treebeard's camera moving too. Which was nauseating. Closed it before pressing a single button, returned to shake my head at how fucking broken copypasting is since a week ago...
    --- Automerge ---
    The editor or the campaign? 'cause, not that it changes your totally valid point, but the campaign's two guys. Skinface is helping. Gotta throw some credit there too.
     
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    The editor, of course. I know Skinface is in on the scenario. :) But those guys aren't programmers at all so they can't be in on the bug fixing any way.
     
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  3. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    Well if it is just one guy can he not say fix one line of code to fix a bug? Or if he is apart of the art department couldn't he idk grab some window cleaner? I dont mean to argue with you its not you I am upset with if I come across hateful I just dont see any valid excuse for them to be doing this with so much other stuff needed :(
     
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  4. Malware Master Engineer

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    First of all, the "one line of code" bug very rarely exists. Usually it starts out looking simple, then... Well, first of all you gotta find out where the bug is. Then... Oh, wait a minute, this is actually correct, what the heck... Gotta trace up here then... Hmm.. What the... And suddenly a whole day has gone. Secondly, highly probably, he does, where he can. The "excuse" is simple: The community is highly split. There are people who would be "raging" as much as you are if there were no feature additions. No matter what they do they'll have angry posts. They're juggling here.
     
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  5. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    Oh I have no doubt all bugs are not like that while I am no coder I have seen code and dealt with it in small doses and it does look like a nightmare but if a modder in their spare time can fix a LOT of issues that Keen seems unable to I have an issue. Yes this particular bug may have been one line and others are not but if we are being honest how many times has a modder had to fix or revert something they messed up? Lighting, Windows, Lens Flare etc etc. these do not tell me they are trying to juggle anything this tells me they are trying to make it shiny to slap a we are done sticker on it and move to whatever else and a lot of this I think could be solved with some real information from Keen.
     
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  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    It's not about being unable to. It's about priorities and where to put ones' hours. Which is a huge spreadsheet... Modders have all the time they need. Professional programmers don't. Also, things like the lighting and lens flares, those aren't bugs, they're gameplay decisions, and the community is highly split on it. Things are rarely as black and white as it might seem.

    Look. All I can tell you is that while I don't agree with certain aspects of Keen's choices, as far as these things go, they're really just par for the course. They're juggling a lot of balls, and trying to keep control of a seriously complicated game - with a seriously complicated - and highly split - community. This is not easy. Whether you believe what I say or not, or even whether what I'm saying is right or not, is beside the point, because when it comes to these aspects of software engineering reality has a tendency to impose itself, no matter what one's own plans are. I know that by personal experience.

    And that's where I will end this discussion :)
     
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  7. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    I can understand where the frustration with SE is coming from. But we must remember that the game isn't just early access, it's attempting to be the first game with it's use of physics/ block deformation/ vehicle creation etc. There's no other game that does quite what SE does and the ones following in it's footsteps are making compromises to circumvent the problems that SE is experiencing. What we're experiencing with SE is not just the frustration of early access, but also the frustrations of pioneers.

    Sometimes you just gotta go play something else for a few months. You bought the game and played it for a while. Presumably that means at some point you were impressed by their goal. That doesn't mean you have to make the whole trek with them. By buying the game, you did your part to help them reach their goal of one day finishing a game that you believe will be awesome.


    Now if anything should give you concern for SE's future, it should be the tone that Keen's been setting that SE and ME exist only for the purpose of GoodAI. That Keen itself real goal is GoodAI, which leaves SE and ME as minor concerns for the company until after they get their AI's running around in them.

    If you're so frustrated you need to take a break, try coming back when they introduce NPC's, that'll be when Keen really starts putting effort into it like we've not yet seen.
     
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  8. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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    I've said this before but for the record I will say it again. SE's AI is a joke, Spiders and Hounds appear and make a beehive for the nearest player with no amount of intelligence or path finding common to even the most simplistic of AI implemented in any game beyond the 1990s...

    Secondly KEEN and by definition Mareks track record for abandoning half finished titles does not do them any favors, and here we are again following a very similar path with SE (Bitten off more than they can chew, and unable to plan a way to finalize the game) and despite the majority of people picking up ME purely to finance development on SE, it is instead that title that seems to get the love and attention. Baffling! And yet somehow GoodAI is suppose to be taken seriously?? Will they likely abandon that if it appears to be a little too hard to actually do AI and move on the a side project, BadAI?
     
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  9. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't think spiders or hounds represent GoodAI. I think they're more of a basic move-and-attack AI made to add just a slight bit more challenge to planets.

    GoodAI may suck or it may be awesome. Only time will tell. But it's probable that SE and ME will get their due attention when GoodAI is ready enough to see it's progress hindered by the bugs in the games.
     
  10. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    I thought it was stated GoodAI was never to be used with SE and wouldn't be used? Did I misunderstand?
     
  11. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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    Just an FYI for those still not convinced that we are being messed about with SE...

    Please go here http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ and search for Engineers. You will see that Space Engineers is in the top 100 most played games, with today alone having 4,855 people at peak with at the time of writing this 4,836.

    Now try searching for Medieval Engineers... Not listed, despite having recently been given a quest system (sorely lacking from SE) and a female engineer another huge ask from the SE community. What about this does not scream abandoned and on life support?
     
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  12. Malware Master Engineer

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    No, you did not misunderstand. GoodAI has nothing to do with games.
     
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  13. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    Thank you very much I thought that is what they said but I could have missed something so I thought I would ask :)
     
  14. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    Didnt they test goodai in SE with some spider maze?
    Or have i been misinformed?
    --- Automerge ---
    Or non manevolentAI not sure if it really good one yet
     
  15. Malware Master Engineer

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    Ah, but in that statement you have the answer. They tested goodai in SE. There is (was) a plugin to train GoodAI brains in SE. To test the brain. It had nothing to do with creating gameplay and everything to do with seeing what the brain would do. The GoodAI brain would never create as fun gameplay as a "proper" game AI, because GoodAI is going to be general AI. Besides it'll be years on years before it'll be ready, and before it can even rival the simpler game AIs...
     
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  16. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    Or non manevolentAI not sure if it really
    Yeah thats what i meant. They used SE as a testing platform.
    I tried to find footage of the test but did not succeed :(
    I am not judging marek tho about fund using tho.
    GoodAI is research much more valuable than game like SE is.
    Altough i kinda doubt they will be the ones creating general AI because goodAI is quite smqll company and lack funding of greater companies.
    Even if goodAi does not create the general Ai themselves they might find something helpful in creating one.
     
  17. Malware Master Engineer

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    Neither am I, he's quite allowed to decide for himself what he uses his own money for... :p
     
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  18. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    Its better investment than hookers and beer :D
    Or is it?????:woot:
     
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  19. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    Maybe we need to send them some to get them back in the spirit of things lol might increase productivity after a little break lol
     
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  20. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    I think folks are missing the actual concern here. I know Keen has a hard job, and I'm not faulting them for when things get buggy.

    I am faulting them for poor communication. They keep making decisions without seeking any feedback on how they're going to be received. Welders, armor texture, lense flare, etc. The HUD? We have no idea what it'll be like. Maybe it'll be awesome! Maybe it'll be confusing and disorienting! But since they've kept everything completely dark, we have no idea. Which means that if there's something wrong with it, they won't know until after they roll it out. When they could instead communicate, and get feedback earlier.

    And when something goes wrong and we do the whole early access tester thing and give feedback? Silence. Heck, we still have no idea what's going on with welders; all we were told is "they're working on them." But they're working on them because they made a bad choice that broke their functionality, not as an accident, but as a result of a failure to understand basic gameplay mechanics in their own game; and they made that bad choice because they didn't stop and ask players "hey, how do you use welders? You guys have thousands of hours logged in the game, what actually works?"

    Nobody needs to defend the artists or the coders or whoever; they're not doing anything wrong. But someone isn't doing enough to communicate with players to get feedback on gameplay.

    I am perfectly aware of how many features the game has that are a result of Keen listening to the players, but I am also aware that this is happening less.
     
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  21. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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  22. Rantage Trainee Engineer

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    2014! Good lord, it has been quite a long time. :(
     
  23. sacksquatch Trainee Engineer

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    And nothing ever came of it. Now I'm even more depressed than I was.
     
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  24. Titus Veridius Trainee Engineer

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    Are you playing multiplayer with any reasonable server load? Otherwise you would notice crash to desktops....merge block desync...ships flying backwards a hundred meters while initiating warp which then blow your station up....sim speed dropping to nothing because someone just turned a dozen gravity generators on which apparently now cause excessive lag.....and hundreds of others things experienced in the last 36 hours by people on actual survivor servers.
     
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  25. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    1,018
    The quest system's more like an on-screen tutorial (that you can't hide) at the minute. Female engineer's been in for a while. We got a model improvement.

    Farming feature is cool, though. (Now if only I could trust wheeled vehicles to help with it.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  26. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    It was stated when ME came out that the two games would share improvements and features didnt they? Honestly how hard would the new engineer model switched over? Why have we not seen more of cross improvements did I miss them no longer doing this?
     
  27. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Cross game improvements seem to included voxel stuff (including planets both ways), Treebeard's face, maybe the wolves (i don't remember but i think they were originally ME), the terrible Block Grouping system that got forever to get changed into a useable state again (which, btw, is broken atm), what else, what else... probably a ton of small stuff i don't remember but yes, after Planets that entire thing just levelled out. As for the FemGineer: there's really two ways of doing her.
    1.) Swap Treebeard's face with hers and call it a day.
    Obviously this would be the easier and faster option. Because Treebeard's suit isn't that bulky (btw: why not, dear Realism People? Shouldn't he look like the Michelin Mascott?) it would look a bit unnatural, especially because Femmy's face is on the slender side. But for a first implementation it would be well enough for me.
    2.) Rescale and reanimate the entire model.
    That's the option they went with Medieval Engineers and it's led to a nice result in the body-area. And even the face got reworked to look like, y'know, human. So that's awesome. Trouble is this would mean more time create the model (simply resizing Treebeard would look weird i reckon, with all those belts and pockets and nacelles and crap hanging from the suit) and they're still not even done reworking the new blocks (Reminder that Armor is better now but still terrible in a few select areas ouf choice. Seats still look like melted bananas.).

    What grinds my own personal gears with the Female Engineer (aside from Marek's insulting "Who gives a shit?"-attitude on-stream, which is neither forgotten nor forgiven, but he's off to torment his AI so it is no longer relevant) isn't that she's not out yet but that there is no official "Yes" on that. We BARELY managed to get it knocked down to "Maybe". Like, the entire time people asked for her the main issue has either been: "But we don't see the engineer's face, who says it's not a woman?" - which i agreed with -, and after the helmet got made removable, it's always been "We don't have a head model to use.", which has always struck me as silly (you didn't have one for Treebeard either), and it hasn't been true ever since Good Guy @Deepflame came into power.
    I get it - the decision makers (i'm gonna be charitable and assume they even think about it before saying "no") probably want to do it right (Option 2, which i'd prefer if there's enough time) or not do it at all. Femmy's face pre-rework is a good argument in that regard; i hear that Treebeard's modeller left?
    Anways, back to my point - i don't care if she's literally the last feature to make it in, i just want a proper, official, not-gonna-change, she's-not-going-to-be-a-DLC,-Paid-DLC-or-Mod kinda "YES, now shut up". I get it, priorities are a thing. I'm not asking for her to be implemented tomorrow. But considering the fucking Deer Engineer was literally more work than Option 1 (because, with the new visor design, you don't even need the entire head, just the face) the lack of a "Yes, just not now"...

    [​IMG]

    (I'm going to support any motion for a skin color slider, btw. Works for textures, can't be too hard.)


    Edit: i'm typing up a Bug Report right now and i thought i'd share these little gems.





    This worked perfectly fine two weeks ago. How did nobody catch this in internal testing?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
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  28. Sirad Trainee Engineer

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    RRRRR this is a rethorical question, because we all know the answer aint ?
     
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  29. Sentinel-Ghost Apprentice Engineer

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    108
    The Copy & Paste buggyness has been infuriating me too. Its so frustrating to have something that worked fine before, suddenly become broken for months at a time...
     
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  30. Sirad Trainee Engineer

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    And dont forget about the alignment of Blocks. whenever you want to put down 10 angled slopes, uuuhhh you need to roll around the tiles each slope you put down, because the program forgets the Block alignment randomly.
    This is kinda psychic test whenever you build something large you need to roll around each block because its not about engineering, its about how long it takes until to sink your head into the screen.
    sucks sucks sucks. This worked once and i dont understand why this aint working anymore. Enginering ? sucks.
     
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