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The State of SE: My Thoughts

Discussion in 'General' started by iN5URG3NT, Feb 20, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    1301 hours in game, until I rage quit a couple of weeks ago. It's funny I'm in the same boat as many people here it seems, even though there's some level of disgust for the un-playability of many aspects of the game... we keep an eye on things just in case KSH manages to steer the ship back in a favorable direction. I've been checking forums since I quit regularly just in case. Many of the gripes here are things I have had issues with but what I find most amusing is people mentioning how they have been flamed for far less, and that this is more of a respectful outpouring. Of course there are people here now griping about bugs that were all too happy to flame me for rage quitting only a few weeks prior, or for posting concerns about the DEVS seemingly arbitrarily designing content while blatantly refusing to fix well known and documented bugs The reasons for this no longer concern me as I've already cancelled my server and uninstalled the game. The silent updates to branches, the content without fixes, the general malaise that has plagued MP and survival for months/years. I still hope to see it turn around but as many here have said it just looks like they are going to roll out a half baked turd that was once THE SH|T and move on to greener (i.e. less shi*tty) pastures. But alas it's good to know that despite the reaction to my quitting the unreasonable lack of oversight and planning that is still being masqueraded as a game... that there is a thread like this still going strong that speaks to the dissatisfaction that has been left in many of our hearts, and imaginations for what at this time seems to be a game that's losing life blood and hope, but could have been one of the most awesome space sandboxes... (the only?) of all time.

    Past-tense all the way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    He made a point to mention that these things are being worked on in the vid. They're watching this..

    About communication.. I dunno about you guys but when life gets busy I can't be arsed check this forum, and steam forum, and discord, and Reddit, and Facebook, and twitter.. and each venue has a base of users that feel the same way, which I think is ridiculous when there's an official Keen forum. Not to lash out at Reddit for example, but when developers post there then what reason to those users have to hit the official forums? It all seems very fragmented.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  3. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,175
    So far I have played 2995 hours of Space Engineers. I like to think that I have been one of the more optimistic community members so far. And I still am. Working in the gaming industry for a couple of years now as QA and BI I know of the perils that can be encountered when working with a project which has a scope that has outgrown it's technological limits. It happens more often than one might think simply because game design, dev department and project management are simply not linked up well. But that is an explanation, not an excuse. Poor tech management still is a major problem among European gaming companies and KSH seems to be no exception to that.

    I have made it my cause to produce my creations as multiplayer friendly as possible: easy to produce, easy to maintain, easy to salvage and no moving parts that are not merge block related. But since we have arrived at Beta I am experiencing problems with those creations. Not in the usual way - something is introduced, it breaks something else, it gets fixed - critical bugs are piling up and not being properly worked on. Something is severely broken in the QA-dev communication chain and it needs fixing before everything else.

    The game feels more like a pre-alpha-tech-demo than it felt a year ago. I am immensely thankful for all the jolly good times that I've had so far and I will definetely continue to poke around the game to see if I can come up with new bricks that I like but currently my intense love has cooled off. That's not only due to the bugs but also caused by many other things, most of which have been already mentioned in this thread.

    The game design is lacking in many key features:

    We have survival elements that can be used but no real survival chain - proper enemies, proper environmental threats, proper production chains - everything has been left untouched after first mechanic introduction. Food, solar flares, temperature, water, animals, varying NPC ships - only the placeholders are there

    We have faction management but no functionality behind it - custom ranks, access systems, sharing options, spawn options, false flag possibilites, antenna frequency options or proper weaponry settings - again only placeholder features

    Tier/ specialisation based block groups are there, waiting to be expanded - while we have different cockpits, the arc furnace, thruster specialisations - the system feels totally undercomplex - why implement weaponry if you do not plan to expand the variety? Why prepare specialized refinery tiers if you don't implement them? Where are smaller medbays for recharging only, airlock-doors, armour variety, merge-block based decouplers, capacitors? I don't say we need new block mechanics, but look at what the community has brought in terms of adding variety to existing block mechanics!

    And while we're at new block mechanics - atmospheric drag, parachutes and entry heat are stuff that would benefit the engineering challenge and make it so much more interesting to incorporate planets into daily gameplay.

    The engineering challenge would of course also benefit from functional moving blocks but that is a bug-problem and thus does not belong in the list.

    The content design is missing stuff as well:

    We've been waiting out on block variation, decorative blocks (inner walls, thin walls, statues, furniture, the freakin' space toilet, pretty much anything Eikester has done, you name it) and some gaping holes in terms of QOL blocks (can I haz rounded 2x1 ramps and the missing corner blocks, ploxx)

    The prefab library and the behaviour of the NPC ships is a joke - if you have Aragath, for the love of god, use him and create loads of new drone bases, leftovers, automated enemies, dungeon bases, whatever.




    I could go on and on about the stuff that is NOT in the game. Remember the threads we did in the forum about what features planets could and should have? What NPCs, even if only drones could do? I accept that this is not a game to be played by 120 users on one server at a time- I also accept that there are limits to the performance of large ships - but this game is a large pile of prototype-state features that have been left untouched for ages now and scream of potential. If they felt like they could not offer more I would be less upset. But I WANT that ship to have a kitchen, I WANT to have a small faction with their own rooms in my destroyer that they have properly customized, love to death and make sure they keep it alive, I WANT to go take a landing party in that small shuttle through a storm to find that plant that can save us from radiation poisoning so we can go and hunt for alien artifacts near that wrecked ship on that planet that is infested with automated tanks that taunt you via intercom. Because I can feel that the game could do so.
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Like Like x 4
  4. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    Do you want a hug or something? People get flamed. I got flamed before. Everyone gets flamed. There are things called opinions. Sometimes people or even a lot of people disagree with you or don't like YOUR opinion.

    Context is everything. You got flamed for rage quitting? Yet you felt you needed to post a "F.This.S." message because? It's basically the needless selfie of the rage quit. Quit if you're going to quit. Then people flamed you. Hmmm... like that never happens. No one is special. Sorry, pumpkin.

    Do you still need that hug?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
  6. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    Well, literally at the moment I'm writing this a player contacted me from my server... his ship just fell out of the sky for no reason on the server... boom. Batteries are fine... he was just hovering. Oh the derpy bugs. But here's the rub... players just up and rage quit after they've spent hours and hours making things and they just randomly fall out of the sky... or randomly decide to phase into a planet and explode.

    I feel that the original KSH team is all but gone and now we have hired guns just trying to finish this up without getting too involved.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Well at least we won the welder skirmish of Feb 2017.
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    100
    Speaking of the state of SE has anyone been to the ME change log? Devs actually responding and commenting on the stuff hell I think the Dev was the second post and had 2 or 3 in the first 10 posts......
     
  9. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    I remember when ME just started and it became the neglected step-child not too long after...

    I guess the roles have reversed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    100
    I do not have ME I was just curious the differences. I personally do not think either should be neglected if it is two teams working on the games. I would like to get ME but I am hesitant :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    It's too bad because I don't give a flying f about more mideival age games. They're even more overplayed than WWII games.
     
  12. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    I'm fine with getting flamed, I wasn't bitching about it. You may have been speed reading your way through but I'm amused by it now (I was able to sneak that in there for the eagle eyed reader to pick up). After certain frustrations were removed and I stopped taking certain recreational activities so personally/seriously I can laugh at the delusion now. And I am fine with people expressing opinions. Even ones contrary to my own... sometimes those are the most fun. Literally no where in my post was I hating on people for having differing opinions (back to that "cleverly hidden amusement" reference I made earlier.)

    And for the record the "F this S" message was more of a "Good luck with this S people, I am done frustrating myself". I know the distinction may be lost on some... but it's there nonetheless.

    And finally.... Yes I would still like that hug, but somehow I fear you may not be sincere!
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
  13. hellokeith Apprentice Engineer

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    335
    Very telling that even in the Reddit post, several people said they do not play anymore due to the unplayable bugfest.

    Well I don't play anymore either, but no regrets, I definitely got my money's worth 2 1/2 years ago when multiplayer was stable..
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    I will give you a great big hug with your feet not touching the ground. All warm and fuzzy.
     
  15. Muttly (Muttly's Pirates) Trainee Engineer

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    56
    well you lot are complaining now, MP is gonna be pretty rougth in the not to distant furure. With the release of Torch not to far off, which is to replace server extender and essentials, the devs working on it said concealment (entity management) wont be in the intitial build and will be added later. Which imo is a mistake, soo rip sim speed good luck running a pop server with 10+ players without that feature available :(
     
  16. Sentinel-Ghost Apprentice Engineer

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    108
    I'm somewhat confused about that Reddit thread and what some players had posted in it... Compared to the Steam Forums the KSWH forums have a pretty low level of "@#!#-posting" and "whining", so quite why some players don't bother with the OFFICIAL forums is beyond me...
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. Foxhound71 Apprentice Engineer

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    178
    Ahem, remember Miner Wars? Yeah...
    Needless to say that if SE does end up being rushed out the door unfinished and buggy like this I'm never touching anything by KSW ever again that's for sure.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  18. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    Every time there is even the most remote mention of trouble in SE someone says this like they're lifting the veil of deception.

    We all know Miner Wars was a flop. We are hoping we can avoid the same fate for this game.

    All things considered, they mentioned that they are still working on things like physics and performance. They know these things are a concern. It's sad that that is probably the only response we are going to get from Keen, but it does mean that they are aware of the community's concerns (to an extent) and that they want to finish the game right. It's safe to say that all of us would never touch a KSH product again if SE is rushed out as a buggy and incomplete product under the guise of a finished and functional game.

    Starforge's devs got away with that shit twice, but SE has a lot more players. Keen would be finished if they screwed everyone and I think they know that.
     
  19. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    353
    It's sad how it is with SE. The Idea is great, and with all the users, I think KSH has hit a topic that many players are interested in. But sadly, it seems to me that that KSH has bitten off more than they can swallow. Havok is obviousely the wrong physic engine for space flight simulations. Also rotors and pistons fail partwise because of havoc. At the moment, the game is not playable any more. It's just no fun. And honestly, I doubt that this will change. My hope is that SE2 will be better, but maybe KSH has to sell the titel to get someone better to produce SE2. The Idea is still good. But I think at the actual state it's easier to start completely new than to fix the existing mess.
    I have now 2646 houres of play time, so I don't complain about the money I spent, but maybee I take a look at the end of the year again, otherwise this game is dead for me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Sirad Trainee Engineer

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    20
    Yeah.

    Shutting down 'Keen Software House *LTD*' and reopening a new LTD: a few bucks.
    Dicing out a new Company Name: a few bucks more
    reserving new domain and advertizing a new game with the early acess sheme: a few bucks.

    reward: guess ? Millions ?
    drawback: none. read your terms of license :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    888
    It's because Reddit is a giant circle jerk.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  22. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    True. But it wouldn't take long for the community to sniff out the rebrand and the albatross hung back around their neck. It would dog the new company and would be a SEVERE PR nightmare since it would be seen as Keen trying to pull a fast one.

    Besides, what would be the more likely scenario would be for some key members of the original dev team to use the opportunity to jump ship or find funding for another start up. It's not a bad thing to have two million units sold under your watch and asking for funding and some structured management. There are enough space voxel games out there NOW that the idea of doing a space voxel game would be like wanting to do a first person shooter or a big fighting robots game.

    Keen's best position would be to finish the game with some integrity, learn some lessons, and then make SE2 on a brand new engine with a set number of features. Build EXACTLY that. Deliver it. Then offer an SE2 Expanded edition with a bunch of advanced features and deliver EXACTLY THAT. That I'd pay for again without complaint... because they delivered EXACTLY what they promised. They could deliver expansion 2, 3, 4, etc. and people would pay for them as long as the content was pre-ordained, delivered working as promised, and all the bugs squashed.

    That would be a much better system for development as you'd be able to get new rounds of funding and people could stop and still play whichever expansion they decide to get off the train with. However, each expansion should have new features that really pop... not just new lame blocks. People can just mod those back into earlier versions anyways. But they need a new engine. Vrage ain't it... and the system should take advantage of GPU physics modeling... on Nvidia and hopefully AMD as well.

    But Keen has to cross the finish line on SE1 and it has to be good, not just done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  23. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    This. A thousand times this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  24. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    Here's hoping they pull it off.

    Also, thanks for the offer of hug. Truly... more random acts of kindness are sorely needed in our society at large.
     
  25. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,975
    The problems with the game's direction in one dark nutshell:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    -) First and foremost: terrible gameplay decision.
    -) Secondly: if it even IS one. We have no idea if this is intentional other than knowing they want it like this. This might be a bug, this might be a feature; we don't know. @Xocliw fix that. You need to tell us what's intentional and what isn't.
    -) No graphics options to change this other than the Creative-exclusive F12 debug menu (that we all know won't survive to Release anyway).
    -) No World Option either.
    -) As you see in one of the screenshots: small ship Corner Lights with maximum range don't help. At all. The Mauler was about five meters away from the Asteroid when i finally saw something. This makes Spotlights mandatory.
    -) Lighting in DX11 has have never, ever worked correctly in DX11. At all.
    -) It's a subtle difference but in complete darkness my CPU has about 5 to 10 percent more load compared to the very same room with shadows disabled in the F12 menu. You'd think needing to render less would make the already taxing game easier on the system, but it actually has to calculate all of those shadows.
    -) Real Talk: i'm colorblind. They recently made the game darker than it used to be, and it was already on the verge of being way too dark for me - once it gets too gloomy, the dark colors just turn into one uniform black screen for me. The inside of Asteroids was already unbearably dark last week, but i could at least see where i was going. THIS, though... it's not just that i don't WANT to play like this, i CAN'T play like this. The Engineer's suitlights help a little working up close in Survival, but i need to see my surroundings.
    Which brings me to the saving grace, i suppose: it might yet be a bug. This is what the game looks like in a big ship:

    [​IMG]

    Way too dark for my taste, but this is playable. Even for my eyes. So whatever the hell is wrong with lighting seems to be restricted to Voxels. Somehow. Which brings me to the second point on the list - we don't even know if this is intentional...
    -) If it WAS intentional: they didn't even have the decency of giving a warning out beforehand, other than the talk of triggering Rotal on Xoc's stream. Well, don't know about triggering but i'm certainly pissed off right now. A warning wouldn't change anything but it'd be nice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496

    Well that's disappointing. I haven't had a chance to play after the update, but I was super excited to sit down and try it out since they fixed the planets/asteroids/grids not appearing for some players. I was going to say that this update was a step in the right direction in terms of playability.

    I guess it really IS, but you can't call a bug fix "Multiplayer Optimization". That's very misleading, in my opinion.
     
  27. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    New updates, how's it looking so far.... oh... if Rotal is here it can't be good. I see they are still neglecting STABLE... so that's good news(?). I have to admit watching this forum now is way more fun since I stopped playing lol.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

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    1,500
    So I am not seeing an issue with the lighting to be honest and I think as always it is about what individual people like and want.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So from the two above images this is the dark side of the planet. I think the lighting seems adequate. Having stood in a very dark near total darkness place on Earth (hard to find these days) after your eyes adjust to there being no aritificial light sources it is darker than this. This is brighter I would assume for gameplay reasons ( not stumbling off cliffs etc) so I find it immersive enough.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    So next test I drilled a hole into the ground to see if the lighting has changed and it doesn't in my opinion. It is dark and I expected that. Also took a pic with my head torch on and again it seemed perfectly acceptable and immersive.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Next one was in an asteroid to see if there was a difference between the two voxel objects and as far as I could tell it was again acceptably dark with no light source on. Like I said devs are never going to win on this because everyone wants something different. Just my two pennies worth on this subject.

    EDIT: also something that might be unknown to players, the more lighting you add the darker the unilluminated areas get. Which when you think about it is correct because if you shine a torch in a field at night your eyes adjust to that cone of light and everything else can become darker. If you turn all light sources off your eyes adjust and everything is a little bit more clearer dependant on how dark it is. I THINK that is what I was seeing when driving around a planet in a rover.
     
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    • Informative Informative x 2
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  29. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

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    1,032
    So I had no chance to test this myself, but from my point of view this seems perfectly fine to me. Though I see that this new lighting restricts the gameplay inside voxel caves, but with the proper equipment this should be immersive.

    If Keen adjusts the large spotlights, caves could be flooded with enough light to be playable.

    Don't know about you guys, but I like that darkness is something I need to be prepared for, not just a cosmetical thing and spotlights should be useful, not just decoration.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  30. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225

    Agree'd
    I'd rather s**t my pants when a wolf pants when a wolf bites me in total darkness than see one running up to me because i have perfect night vision.

    Pitch black so theres a reason for lights.
    could also make flares a thing.....led super bright white leds or glow sticks that the player can throw or place for temporary lighting...but oh well chances are that won't be a thing.
     
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