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Thoughts on DLC Cockpit's DLC Gate

Discussion in 'General' started by TartarusMkII, Apr 8, 2019.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. TartarusMkII Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    13
    Hey all, firstly, I do not want this to be a discussion about the DLC itself. I understand some people have different opinions, and there's a lot of misunderstanding about it. I just want to talk about the Cockpit, which is as far as I know, the only truly functional block in the DLC.

    As I understand it, if a player does not have the DLC, they cannot enter the DLC Cockpit. So if a ship is made with this cockpit, they cannot (easily) use it. Now, this is not a critical issue, as I mean, you could just replace the cockpit with anything else. But to me, this seems really clunky, and is too much of a big deal to notice. And I'm going into this assuming that KSH doesn't intend to wave the cockpit in front of player's faces to try to get them to buy the DLC. I really don't believe that.

    So in short, I want to suggest that the Cockpit, while staying DLC of course, be an exemption to the rule that you must own the DLC to use an item.

    What do you all think?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. CyberBlaster Trainee Engineer

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    16
    I haven't tested it myself but I thought they said on stream you just couldn't build them. You could still use them.

    *edit*
    Sadly you are right, I turned off the DLC and I cannot use the toilet. That really sucks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  3. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    54
    Personally, I have a ton of questions about how this will affect the Workshop. How do you download, use, or project bp's with these blocks if you didn't give the extra $4 ? What happens to the industrial cockpit? Does it transform into another cockpit?
    I bought 5 licenses of SE over 5 years ago. I've supported and praised the game, on Steam, other communities and irl. Over 2000 hours of play time. SE was my distraction on long, lonely biz trips while my colleagues got blitzed in the hotel bar.

    This is a bit of a kick to the nads. Especially after the amount of time taken for the full release.

    Not really happy, but I will stop here, lest the rapid fanboys start furiously typing... I guess we should be grateful we got the ladders back for free...
     
  4. CyberBlaster Trainee Engineer

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    16
    I assume it would work like you are missing mods, just removes the block.

    *edit*
    Now thinking about it, I bet it just leaves the blocks there. You would have to grind down and replace yourself
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  5. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,741
    I don't like DLC. But I understand its need. Keen needs revenue sources to further development and number of new purchases are probably going to be diminishing returns as selling 2 million units is a fair amount of market saturation for a game with a limited scope of appeal unlike something like a first-person-shooter akin to Fortnite.

    Will I buy the DLC. Probably. It's relatively inexpensive.

    As far as the game mechanics around the DLC, I think everyone playing on a server should be able to use the item (ownership and faction rules applicable) but unable to place the blocks, weld, or repair them rather than just not use them at all.

    It's $4.00US. I'm not going to cry a river over $4. Most of the items have equivalents for free in the workshop or someone will no doubt make free equivalent mods using their own designs.
     
  6. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    54
    $4 isn't much. But there a principle, and a new biz model that is being followed.
    But, whatever...
     
  7. CyberBlaster Trainee Engineer

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    16
    They talk about not splitting the community but if you cannot use the DLC at all if you don't own it then, unless everyone at your base has the DLC, you can't use the cockpit at all on your ships.

    Mining and cargo ships that the cockpit it aimed for are usually shared between the team. So it's a waste to use the new cockpit on them unless you make sure everyone has the DLC.

    Although it has the added security of helping prevent people from stealing your ship if they don't the DLC as well lol
     
  8. TartarusMkII Trainee Engineer

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    13
    I agree, my feeling is that using a block shouldn't matter- just not being able to place something is enough.

    It's only $4, but even new players who encounter these things and find they can't use them at all will get turned off.
     
  9. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,741
    You can always think of it as a way for existing players to support further development of the game. Salaries have to come from somewhere and I don't think they'll be releasing the deluxe, deluxe edition where Marek delivers the copy personally in any attire of your choice.

    I digress. For the people who purchase it, you get to be the a-hole who brought the special cockpit to the party that no one else can use, for example. So that's going to limit using it in multiplayer. If Keen lets faction-mates use the cockpit, then you're like the guy who brought the keg to the party. You get to be the unicorn player rather than the guy spawning special stuff for his exclusive use.

    I think Keen will sell more units if other players can use them as a fringe benefit of someone else having them. But that player will still have to place the block or weld it himself or with a welding block that he owns.

    There's also the issue with unfriendly players being unable to interact with the block unless they have the DLC installed as well. What are the rules for hacking the blocks? The DLC doesn't bother me as it's not pay-to-win DLC... but it might do exactly that if the rules aren't thoughtfully planned out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,413
    You bet it stinks if you can't use the toilet!
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  11. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

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    78
    Im not happy about the DLC at all...

    - Why was something the community asked for YEARS released in this way?
    - Why is the Cockpit or the storages only usable for buyers? This creates a bunch of really awkward problems , especially if they are featured in the new encounters?
    If it were really pure decorative blocks , but no , you had to make storage and cockpit...Which contradicts the label "Decorative" , these are FUNCTIONAL and USABLE blocks. This is called FALSE ADVERTISING

    So this is why the game came out from EarlyAccess / Beta , dick move Keen...

    -According to https://support.keenswh.com/spaceengineers/general/topic/glass-for-small-ships Keen thinks :
    "
    Space Engineers Support ● 6 months ago


    Hello, Engineers!
    We believe Space Engineers has too many blocks already, and it would increase the game's complexity too much.
    Cheers,"

    but suddenly its ok to sell blocks (that are a blatant rip-off of free mods on the workshop) ? Really strange attitude there...

    - Will all requested features in the future now be paid? Like other suits, the afformentioned small ship glass , more npcs... ?

    - I mean the "game" isnt even a game , when the only interaction with the tiny amount of npc is to fire weapons / attack each other ?
    In its current state , SE is only good for pretty screenshots and videos , while MP is unplayable with the "engineering" blocks like rotors,pistons and merge blocks (i cant count how many times in the last weeks my rotors exploded half the ship while it merged with another or the small ships in the hangar sunk in the floor ,only to explode if interacted...)

    - These new DLC-Blocks will split the community even further , first we had "vanilla-only" and "mod "-users , now we have "vanilla-with-dlc" , "vanilla-only "and "mod"-users , "mod-with-dlc" - users...

    If you really need money , why dont you up the price of the game now its released and the sales were , according to Marek on the stream , really good? Or run a patreon / donations page?
    Or release a really "cosmetic" dlc with skins only , which have no effect on gameplay ?

    I got the "game" in February 2014 , put up with your constant "fix-breaking patching" , said nothing when you branched off to ME (which i cant remember anybody asking for) and SE , said nothing as you moved out of beta and released a unfinished product , but ENOUGH is ENOUGH....


    THIS.IS.THE.WRONG.DIRECTION.YOU.ARE.HEADING.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,552
    @TartarusMkII Did you really think you could avoid the angry mob dumping their salt? You can't mention that 3-letter tag without them coming screaming, no matter how off-topic it is... :p
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. bleakhead Trainee Engineer

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    87
    What the hell is wrong with you guys?
    A question to the haters. Do you buyed a DLC in an other game? Yes? Why? Shame on you!
    Serious, I played this game much as a full price title like Battlefield or ARMA 3... both have DLCs and i bought all DLCs of both to get the content and have more fun in future.
    What are you thinking, SE costs less then 20$ AFTER RELEASE!!! and you cry because one simple COSMETIC dlc costs less than 4$?
    Guys developers need coffee to work, i talk from expericence, so if you do not want to support the game, then do not pay... "but i can not sit on the toilet" boy, if this is your first world problem, then sorry for you. Your life must be realy sad!


    I like this DLC and I will buy the next one too, even if its not decorative. Why not some new content? why not paid? Its just fair to pay for this and c´mon its realy a fair price instead of other publishers... Just to keep in mind, this DLC is not copy & paste from some Mods...

    You can hate keen, if they buy Modders and sell the mod for 15$ (for example)
    But this time, no the hate train is just from greedy kids. Shame on this part of SE community!

    #MyOpinion
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    78
    So anybody that disagrees with your opinion is a "hater " and a "creedy(? you meant greedy?) kid ?
    Way to go , labeling and insulting other people...

    And it did cost even less as it was in EA... but yeah....the way you write the kid seems to be you ...
    Go ahead and be a sheep and buy it , if it didnt bother you to pay for something like a usable and functional block like the cockpit (WHICH IS NOT DECORATIVE or COSMETIC!) why post?
     
  15. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,552
    It's usable and functional, sure, but it doesn't add anything new to the game. It has no function that the default cockpits don't have. Ergo it's a reskin. Ergo it's decorative. The only block that actually adds something new is the console block, which adds scaling to projections, but... that's definitely decorative.

    Huh. I haven't checked if that scaling is available to the original projector. Probably not.

    I do not agree with the gating system though. To at least touch on the OP topic. Disallowing build but allowing use would probably indeed be a better way imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 9
  16. bleakhead Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87

    firstly I wrote that the haters are greedy. The livestream yesterday shows the angryness of those players. Its not just a disagree, its more a hate train and this is simply stupid. If you feeling touched, so you are a hater? If not, than do not feeling touched.

    Other thing to think of: regarding this disagree, Keen could stop development on SE completely, because they see that the community is not willing to buy more. So they create SE 2 and sell it for 40$ is it better? I do not think so. - SE2 is a general good idea - but not instead of SE.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. zopzodeman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    78
    So you will still label others as haters just because they dont share YOUR opinion?
    How old are you ? 12? Because the way you discuss anything in here but the topic at hand makes it look like that...
    And please learn to properly write in english , its really hard to understand what exactly you mean..
    And no , i dont care if it isnt your first language , its also not my first language.
    I think its better for you to leave and let adults discuss the multitude of problems this DLC creates.

    Edit: You can try to answer , but i dont care about you or your opinion anymore ....Welcome to the Ignore list !
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  18. bleakhead Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87
    Did you even read some threads? Go to the latest update section. View the last stream and look in the chat. Saying that Keen is like EA is a big deal for me because Keen gaves us so many updates and realy new functionality. Of course its the state of the art of early access but you as a player could talk to the devs and bring new ideas into the game. Feature requests can made on their board or even while livestream. To say that keen just want to take the money from us is so definitly a stupid opinion because THEY GIVE US SOMETHING BACK!
    Its a donation with a win win... what is the problem? that you not get this cockpit? is this your problem?
    Please Marrek, change your opinion just for those guys who wont pay for progression of SE. Stupid and this is realy stupid, if you do not like it, dont play it! Mod your things on your own...



    SO as you do not see the thing, and do not get it, would you realy have the cockpit? should I buy the pack for a "friend" and send it to you? NO because you do not deserve it. You underline, that you wont support the development of these great developers. I realy hope, that they create new DLCs with content because a year ago I rly want some goal in a "sanbox" game and economy would be something like that. This must be developed. The developers are paid. Yes, they are not for free, could you imagine?
    To "pay" them We buy the DLC, this is how game development works. nothing is for free. So we could say THANK YOU keen, that we get something back for our donation...
     
  19. domingo Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    46
    Although I don't play the game anymore, I will buy the DLC, it's ~3.5€ after all. That way the Keen will have money to pay developers so there is chance the game will be really finished, polished and useable (and not just alpha/beta quality stamped as finished).

    Also I agree with Ronin1973 & Malware that Keen should rethink the cannot-use-policy ...
    You SHOULD be able to use them even when DLC is not active.
    You should be able to build them only when player has DLC OR when Projector owner AND Welder owner has the DLC bought.

    You should be able to grind them down and gain materials from them even when you don't have the DLC bought/activated.

    I am thinking on whether you should be able to hack them (take ownership) or not ...
    The problematic block is the new Industrial Cockpit.
    If you can't take the ownership, you will lose the keybinds when you grind it down and rebuild with standard cockpit.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Sentinel-Ghost Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    108
    After 1535 hours in game [as of 09/04/19] spending another £3 on Space Engineers seems worth it.

    But like others have said the 'gating off of access' is not a good move in my opinion. It also means I now have to complete my large ship WITHOUT using these new blocks so as to allow people without the dlc to use it when I eventually publish the ruddy thing. Then do a 'DLC Version' - that's assuming anyone downloads the ship at all of course ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. bleakhead Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    87

    Arma 3 had a good idea with the dlcs. you could use the vehicel and weapons but you got form time to time a "copyright" banner on the whole screen. This could maybe a solution but even this will be hated because "omg its an annoying banner for material I usually have pay for but get it for free with some copyright"
     
  22. G-Grauger Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    I love SE, and all the painstaking hours of designing, building, grinding and fighting on laggy servers.
    I've been playing SE for 6 years now; purchased a total of 6 gift copies for friends in the past, and I still recommend it to this day.

    I can't help but feel cheated by Keen with this DLC.
    If anyone deserves this DLC content for free, it's those who backed SE in 2013.

    I mean, there is obvious functionality with these blocks that hinder PVP which can be exploited.
    You can't grind down that cockpit to hack it, then steal a ship if you don't own it.
    You can't swindle tools, bottles and ammunition from the decorative blocks..

    This unbalances things for PVP players, which is my main reason against it.

    If Keen is going to release paid DLCs for certain functional (meaning they can do ANYTHING) blocks, they should eventually release it free on the down low.
    Put it up, rake in profit, release it free after 6 months maybe without a word.

    That'd make a lot of people happy without losing the majority of income from the DLC.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    344
    I'm not a fan of DLC to buy. Main reason is that I have bad experiences with that from the past and think that especially minors are prone to be ripped off by such sheems. In this case I bought the DLC. The main reason for this was that I got SE for really cheap compared to normal PC game titels like Skyrim (where I got the DLC in a bundle with the game) but have spent 5752 houers with SE compared to 453 houers with Skyrim, in that perspective 4$ don't hurt me and are justified. I paid more that day for puplic transportation. But would the price be at 10 or higher, I wouldn't have bought it. As other pointed out, there's the workshop for decorations.

    About functional versus decorative, my opinion is that if there is another block with the same funktion (Cargo, Passenger seat, Cockpits) that you can use, then it is decorative, even if it offers some functionality.
    About the usability, I think it is importand that you can grind down the blocks even if you don't have the DLC. I would also prefere if you can use the block once it is fully build, but you can't take over the ownership for PCU's or access.

    All in all I have mixed feelings about this course of action Keen has taken. I hope they don't build their future on buyable DLCs, because the next one I may decide not worth buying and drop the game completely.
     
  24. Tontow Apprentice Engineer

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    259
    I bought the DLC because I wanted to support SE.

    That being said.

    There is no problem with decorative and cosmetic items being paid DLC as those are items that just look nice and wont affect game play. Things like skins for blocks, the hologram/projector table , plants, the toilet, couch, etc.
    I see no problem with having decorative and cosmetic items being available to DLC owners on all servers.




    The main question is: Should functional blocks (blocks that sit there and do things other than look nice. IE: cockpits, storage, etc) be 100% restricted to players that have the DLC.

    Restricting functional blocks creates a mess of problems that absolutely must be addressed in a game where you can share you creations and take ownership of others.
    - Who can build it?
    - Who can grind it?
    - Who can place it?
    - Who can use it?
    - Who can hack it?
    - Should it only be enabled on servers that only let only DLC owners join?



    The last one seems to be the best solution if this business model continues. Just treat it like a mod and require that a user has the DLC to join a server that has the DLC enabled. Just make certain you mod the server enough to keep the sim speed at 1.0.
    Yes it turns it into a paid mod, but just think of it more like an expansion pack. A special server becomes available and you get more functionality.
     
  25. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    One thing that surprised me: I'd assumed that the industrial cockpit had the same dimensions as the existing (standard) cockpit, but it doesn't -- not in small grid. So it's not a drop-in replacement.
     
  26. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,714
    I said in another post that still fits here on my opinion :)

    They are no different than mods really. There are plenty of builds out there that you do not have the mod the build will not work. Yes, the mods are free (something Steam was going to try to have people pay for btw) but 3.99 in the big scheme of things is nothing.
    Plus there is really only one functioning block in the pack (cockpit) the others are decorative, yes they have storage in them but no connectors to add to main storage so those without the DLC really are not missing much. And tbh the one functional block isn't all that attractive. :)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  27. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,741
    People are going to hate any form of DLC. That doesn't make them haters or any negative label that you want to stick on them. It just means that they have an opinion that you don't agree with. I like the limited scope of Keen's DLC BUT they have some logistical bugs to work out in my opinion. Being able to bring in specialized blocks to a "vanilla" server is a good thing. DLC that's not pay-to-win allows core players to access features that would be too costly to implement in a world of players who don't want to spend any more money.

    I bought the original game. I upgraded to the deluxe version though I could give a rat's dirty backside about playing ME or getting the uncompressed soundtrack. I just bought the DLC. I think all in all I'm still under $40US in this game that I've spent over 4000 hours playing. So that's about a penny an hour for my entertainment. That's a pretty good value.

    I think the question is WOULD you like to see Keen develop this game for another five years? Would you like some new features like dynamic water? Weather? Etc. The game is far from perfect at this point. Keen isn't very efficient at producing new content. But they still move forward. It's been a fun (sometimes frustrating) ride. But I've enjoyed it thus far.
     
  28. CyberBlaster Trainee Engineer

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    16
    There is nothing wrong with DLC but this thread it more about the gating off interacting with those blocks.

    This is their first DLC and they need to work out how they want to do things going forward. $3.99 (or $4.65 for me) not a lot right now but we need to look ahead. So if they do more block packs in the future, how many DLCs are you expected to buy before it becomes unreasonable just to play with a friend? If I have them all and someone joins with none or a few, you expect them to buy all the DLCs to play with your base or ships?

    What happens if one of these packs had a door in it? You can say it just looks different "it's cosmetic". However, remember anyone without that DLC wouldn't be able to open the door because the DLC policy prevents you from interacting with it. So therefore someone without the DLC can't even move around your base or ship.

    If you say just don't use the DLC blocks, then whats the point of buy the DLC then? To support Keen? Sure, but there are other ways to do that without affecting game play.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. Timotei~ Apprentice Engineer

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    208
    I thing people here should go discuss on this suggestion two. It is asking for what we are talking about right now.
     
  30. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    1,714
    Wrong. :)
     
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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.