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To Keen: the main reason people quit this game in the past and in the future

Discussion in 'General' started by lightzy, Mar 25, 2019.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I've been playing this game for awhile now...not as long as many, but long enough to understand a few things. Since my time has, with one small exception, been single player, I expect that playing multiplayer requires a different mindset. I'm not sure what exactly, but different; not unilateral thinking.

    That said, however, I've also been the victim of a hack (from a workshop map) that erased everything in my saved games folder. Absolutely everything. It was reported to KSH and the user was banned (and, hopefully, the exploit was sealed). Sure, it was disappointing to lose many, many hours of some really advanced builds, but it's my own fault for not performing adequate back-ups. Sure, I could have been really upset, but I should have been more diligent. Some of the best lessons are the hard ones.

    Say when. Say where. Then have the patience while I learn how to play in a multiplayer environment... :tu:
     
  2. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    The Internet is a series of tubes.
    The tubes are full of cats.
    The cats must flow.
    -- Network Engineer Mantra
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  3. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Does Bernoulli's equation work for flowing cats in those tubes?
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  4. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    You have to understand that SE has been transformed from a single player building sandbox to a server-based multiplayer sandbox. How many games are there out there like this? I don't know, but I found SE without looking for it, and continuing to look has proved fruitless. Lotta spase survival games, lotta space building games, mostly single player. From my perspective, most online multiplayer games are shooters. The idea of respawning "far away from the action" is a deal-breaker for those types of games. At Keen I suspect there was a conversation between maybe two or three people, and they decided on an arbitrary number, knowing that if it turned out to be a bad idea they could change it in an update.

    And in a video game production studio, who wants to be the person that says "Wait a minute, hold up everyone..."?

    I've never played SE in a multiplayer environment either. Still I am no stranger to having a lot of work lost because of an update. I've been building and re-building the same ships since 2014 because of updates and/or mods not kept up-to-date. Every time it happens I cuss for a day or two (ok, a week or so) and then I start over and learn a few things.

    I believe the difference is that in multiplayer everything you build is going into service immediately, and when an external force takes it away it's a true setback, and the thought that it could happen again is the final straw.

    I have to say, though, that griefing in general should not be unexpected. For people that tend to behave that way, an SE server with a lot of unattended builds and an inattentive admin has to be like a candy store. To me, going on even a friend's server, building your best ship ever, then logging off for more than 24hrs and expecting it to be unscathed seems a bit ludicrous. I don't know how many other online multiplayer sandbox games are out there, but I bet they all have the same problems and no good solutions. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    It would, except cats ignore equations.
     
  5. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I expect you're right.
     
  6. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    In fairness to KSH, I could have sworn I've seen people complain in the past that it's a problem in multiplayer that you spawn too far apart so it's hard to find each other.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    This week's challenge - find something about the game that nobody's ever complained about !
     
  8. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I'm really pissed about...uh...wait...no, that's already been said.

    OK, I'm really pissed about...no, that's already been done, too. Dang!

    I've got it! I'm really pissed about space balls. They're just not funny enough. That seriously pisses me off!!
     
  9. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Got it! Cockpit displays that have been teased. It's a good thing but... they didn't do it MY way so they SUCK!



















    ;)
     
  10. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  11. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    No one has complained about there not being Roman Candles or Sea Shells in the game! :p
     
  12. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Because we're supposed to complain about what is in the game, not what's not (which is just about everything).
     
  13. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    @Spaceman Spiff people are always complaining about things that are not in the game...where you been man?? Lol.

    (This statement is made in good spirited fun!)

    Sad have to put a disclaimer of what is a joke so people don't go away thinking I am trolling. :D
    (Don't mean you Spaceman, there are sensitive folks out there.)
     
  14. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Hey, I'm easy. Except when something pisses me off! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (Not much of that these days... :D)
     
  15. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    yeah..... you two would have a literal conniption in multiplayer servers. The biggest horror for you guys in particular is this silly notion of "save often and reload a backup" HA! -wouldnt that be nice. NO. SUCH. THING!

    Sure the server had savestates and backups for when it crashes, but like Clang, the server cares not for what happened to any of the puny inhabitants.

    Stop and think about that for a sec. Build something. drive it for the first time. launch it. explore, try new things out, meet people. Re-enter atmosphere of the alien planet. No reloading possible. It would be like playing "ironman" singleplayer: max backup savegames=0

    Sounds exciting to me. To strive and thrive regardless in the FACE of Clang, and Trolls, and #theInternet and #KidsTheseDays. With no do-overs. Granted- a lot more of what is ever built gets lost-to all involved- but thats just a new paradigm: I just dont expect or feel entitled to keep all my toys intact forever. I dunno about you, but that kinda gets my blood pumpin just stepping into that arena. :)

    ooh! and that is a great segue to a fantastic quote, that I read on a bronze plaque on a navy warship (USS Port Royal)- which is a solid (now go in there and die) inspirational speech from someone we may have heard about:
    [​IMG]

    Now, with that all said and done. (do you not feel nudged towards the Arena, now?) GET IN THERE AND PLAY. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,216
    Well, I believe I said somewhere that no server would ever be a safe place for the timid.

    I also said no kid in their right mind leaves their toys in a public server. At least, not after the first time ;)

    I am saying that as a future server admin, it would be nice if I could engage some sort of protocol that could alleviate much of the distress due to the actions of predators that just want to see the world burn. Right now limited access and active monitoring is all I've got. Just turning it on and letting it go is no way to run a server, and those kinds of servers are a troll's best friend.
     
  17. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I think the only reason I would join a multiplayer group would be to collectively create things, not destroy them. The whole "kill it, then kill it some more" philosophy seems pointless to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

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    Agree 100%. This is the thing that's always thrown me off about MP in SE. At it's fundamental level it's an Engineering game, a building game, but online is nothing by battle and destruction, the violent preying on everyone else. It feels like current online SE is the absolute antithesis of what the game is at it's heart.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,413
    Actually, it isn't, and never has been. Most of my many hours in the game has been played on public servers, and I have only very occasionally seen (or suffered from) the destructive players causing a problem. I've managed servers on and off for four to five years which were mainly occupied by players who enjoyed building incredible and insane ships and stations, and I could count the number of times I had to deal with antisocial players on one hand - far less than the times that Klang aka Keen was the offender. I never had the server closed to a steam group except during testing or special events.
     
  20. Einharjar Junior Engineer

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    I've seen threads like this pop up what seems like, daily, on the subreddit and every-time it's pretty much the same sentiment.

    It really seems like the OPs had a bad run in ONE TIME, or THEMSELVES are the BAD RUN IN for some one else and that's where they're judge the experience for everyone off of. I've done public servers and I have no had this issue. I can totally see where it can be a problem but was generally greeted with open arms and most people just wants to group up to build shit since building stuff by yourself in survival modes is, well... tedious.

    The game practically encourages you to team up to get stuff done as many open MP servers have restrictions on script use and mods and even the PCU limits so, having multiple people work together is literally the easiest benefit.

    The current complain storm on reddit is the spawn radius. Everyone complaining about 4km apart spawns and how that leads to immediate griefing. I mean, yeah, if you're the troll who just, does that in-games. I see them everywhere, in every game. It makes no difference here.
    Where this complain is hilarious though was that last I checked, dedicated players of SE (not the trolly ones) legitimately WANTED control over our spawn distances to other players because before hand? IT WAS BORING AS HELL NEVER RUNNING INTO ANYONE. The obvious "fear" of getting "raided" was (and is) due to game balance and the simple fact that you get materials easier and sometimes, faster, if you're simply went full A-hole and attacked people for their stuff.

    The solution was to have us spawn together or close enough that we could literally walk up to the other guy and say "hey, can I join you?" and you'd probably make a faction right after.
    All of my games online, ALL OF THEM, are ALWAYS cooperative in nature. It's just easier.

    The farther away another group, the higher chance of hostility due to LACK OF CONTACT and assumption that the foreign contact may just raid you for resources. It makes for really cool political dynamism as you always begin communications with another group with "caution". However, players who spawn close by and clearly faction-less make easy recruits for assisting in space ship construction labor!

    I'd also point out that their's a distinction between Open MP and Private MP. Dropping in an playing on public MP scenarios of any game always runs that risk but the majority of my hours in MP are actually in private/friend only settings and for OBVIOUS bloody reasons, there's no griefing ever. I might do crap like, cage my AFK for 5 minutes partner in some light armor so that when he comes back, he sighs at my joke but... that's about it?
    To be blunt, if Open MP is SUCH A PROBLEM for you and you can't stomach the risk of an Open MP Sandbox, get some friends and try hosting a private game for just you and your mates? I mean it makes all the damned difference. It's easy to get a discord up for you guys, too. You can all match mods, agree on game modes, play anyway you like and it's all mutual.

    Seriously, Open or Public MP is literally just ONE WAY to experience the game. There's other ways if you cannot handle public MP.

    Lastly, in my experience, people tend to burn out on SE due to SE's general lack of deeper gameplay. I say despite having nearly 3000 hours in the game, but even I get burnouts because of the lack of ... well... GAME. I still love the game but Survival, even post overhaul? STILL NEEDS AND OVERHAUL. I do think it's fair to criticize the game for this but I also encourage people to be supportive of Keen. We've gone through watching several major members of our community have fall outs or literally just go insane, assuming and claiming Keen won't support SE and that it's all dead... yet here we are in 2019, full release and still getting NEW BLOCKS and being teased on getting even more content as time goes on.
    It's important to support Keen and to foster a good community here, as we're getting a lot of new people thanks to the official release.

    if you really think trolling and griefing is a problem, or you see a newby getting punished by such behaviors, do them a favor and recommend other servers that have active admins or hell, HOST A GAME YOURSELF AND INVITE THEM. Don't throw your arms up and give up - literally MOST PEOPLE are NOT having a griefing problem, so clearly there's solutions to the situation and it's important to keep new people on board as that equals more support for Keen and thus, more support for continuous improvement of SE.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Hosting the server myself has been my solution. I am pleased to hear that doing so minimizes the griefing effort.

    3000 hours of MP Survival? If anyone knows what else Keen could do, it's you.

    Spill it, dude.
     
  22. ObjectZero Apprentice Engineer

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    361
    The only time I really ran in to a lot of players looking for a fight or player's just doing random damage, was during that free trial they had going. But I really was expecting it and it was fun to watch (even if it was hard to keep the server up due to the amount of junk pilling up).

    Other then that most MP I've run in to has been CO-OP really. I've seen more damage from klang or player error then from people looking to start a fight. The fights I did see where people asking and looking for one and generally both sides agreed to the fight and picked a location and time. The closest thing I've seen to "greifing" where pranks on players in their own faction. You know simple thing like flipping controls, hiding remotes, turning off or down thrusters and setting a gyro to spin the ship when on. But this was generally all in good fun and very few people got hurt and most had a good time with it till the server crashes.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  23. Spets Master Engineer

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    as far as I know, there is griefers in almost every game. Even in ArmA 3. That is why communities exists, were the members follow the rules and stuff. Pubs is always a pool of griefers and trolls, and as I said, in almost (if not all) online games.
     
  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,847
    You don't solve someone being thirsty by throwing them overboard in the middle of Lake Superior. Too bad no one at Keen actually plays the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    This person came here to show you how he plays the game, legally, and within the boundaries of all laws and all game mechanics. Using no 'cheats, or 'exploits'.
    These actions are determined to be 'griefing' by himself and others, and several persons have decided to instantly escalate the conversation.
    Why?
    The OP is not causing anyone 'harm' by 'griefing', the game is. If this game allows these mechanics, and these mechanics cause you 'harm', then the game is causing you 'harm', and you need to stop playing it immediately.

    There were some great suggestions on designs/traps - that trick the griefers. But, unbridled hate directed at someone using the game correctly is insane.

    I treasure my designs and the builds I make, and what I learn. Thus, I would never spend a SECOND in multiplayer. But, I wouldn't threaten anyone who just likes neat explosions in a video game...
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  26. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Keten Kennek Because there's something called "fair play", regardless of what is actually possible to do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Keten Kennek Trainee Engineer

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    yup and blowing up spaceships is allowed and considered 'fair play'.

    I suspect you even know you are trolling at this point, so I'll just block you. Poor attempt- 1/10 made me reply. Tootles.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  28. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,182
    Go on and block the lot of us, then, mate. You will not have a lot of fun here if you block everyone who answers you in a way you might not like. It's a forum with a long history of people who like to argue in a critical manner. Malware is one of the most polite, serious and gentle persons around here. I assure you, he's not trolling nor will he ever be. He's interested in semantics - because they matter.

    So, think again, friend: A guy comes in here and complains about griefers because, well, they are eegits who ruin the gameplay for other players. Then he says that he is one of those griefers. He's not forced by the game to do so, he choses to. I play multiplayer and I do not grief. The game does not force me to. Saying that it's the game that causes harm is like saying the world is at fault for making it possible to commit crimes. OP is doing something that is possible to do but should not be done. He thereby harms the creation and experience of other players. That's not fair play.

    Here, I explained it to you, wasn't that hard, right? Which gives me the idea... might YOU be the one trolling, not one of our most active and respected community members? Gollygosh, that would be a shocking revelation!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. ThisIsADogHello Apprentice Engineer

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    Interesting juxtaposition with the inspirational message in your avatar...
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    This is the griefer mentality in a nutshell. If something is possible, it's "allowed". This is their "license to destroy". They seem to believe there is no other purpose in playing except to destroy what others have done, especially when they're not around. Public servers are their personal shooting galleries. Thing is, they themselves seldom build anything other than something to blow someone else's stuff up with. They never risk anything.

    Know who else thinks like that? Cowards.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
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