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Update 01.066 – GPS, Text panel, Mod sorting

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by George.Mamakos, Jan 22, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

    1) Space Engineers is obfuscated. That means the actual executable code is 'encrypted' as sorts (not really), to make it unreadable to decompilers.
    Now, that's not to say it's impossible, but it's a LOT harder to decompile it, and understand it.
    2) If this were the US, it's even worse as it can be classified a DMCA violation (via anti-circumvention clause, due to aforementioned obfuscation). It's dumb, but no less illegal (in the US at least).
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
  2. Textor Junior Engineer

    If someone posts 50 times "pistons are broken, they do x" and post almost no additional details, it doesn't help anyone. The entire purpose of the bug thing I'm doing this weekend is to gather as much data and details as possible. Even if there are 72 threads about this, if most of them are not providing usable data then they aren't really doing much more than reiterating that there is a problem.

    As drui said:

    I will be providing a full server log and any other details possible at the end of the weekend so they have as much data to work with as possible, along with videos and extensive notes. Dropping out of the project because someone told you that other people have complained in the past helps nothing.
  3. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    I don't know about the number of bug reports, but if you recall when KSH asked for submissions for exploration they specifically mentioned that you should avoid using rotors and pistons. There was no explanation for that, but Ray Charles could see that the possibility exists that they are simply re-doing pistons and rotors, which would make any fix those other guys came up with moot.

    I have as many facts as the next person on this matter, but Keen and his partners/employees are the only people that have a real stake in this game. If it doesn't come out they're screwed, and we just move on. I can understand them wanting to be careful.

    It's one thing to calmly sit at a desk and hack out a "fix" that works on your server and declare that it was a snap why can't they just use my code? You have nothing to lose if your code in fact screws up something in the works that you are not aware of.

    These two fine fellows, Tyrsis and Fingersniffer, they have a game out? Link please?

    There are a kabillion coders out there. Having a job as a coder does not mean you're good, or better than someone that does not have a job as a coder. Microsoft code is bloated because of the many, many fine coders in their employ. Every last one of them brags about being a coder for MS.

    I watched this same crap happen to Bungie. Two guys make a game, Apple and Microsoft fight over them. Microsoft wins. Game comes out. All of a sudden everyone and their brother knows more about the game than the guys that put their money where their mouths were.

    If those two guys want to show ME something they should be aware that I'm expecting a flawless game and no excuses. If they and their friends want to insist that their code needs to be in the game then they should prove it by producing a superior game. That's how it's done in the real world.

    On the issue of this being an alpha game, and that not being an excuse for the game not working flawlessly... actually it's not an excuse. It's an explanation. It does not matter how many boxed copies of the game have been sold. The developers alone determine what the state of development is. If they say it's in alpha, then that's what it is and no amount of ranting on the forums can change that. It does not matter how much money they have made so far because that is now how the development state is determined. The vast majority of us paid ten dollars or less for this game and if anyone that owns the game right now is unaware that it is in alpha just deserves to be in the state of dismay that they are in. Anyone that thinks the game is NOT alpha simply because of the amount of time it's been at this level or number of games sold or amount of money the developers made or the fact that they are developing another game are simply attempting (and poorly, I might add) to assert that KSH is up to no good. Anyone that understands anything about game development should know that alpha means the game simply does not work right all the time, and fixes sometimes breaks stuff that worked. If you are impatient that inherently means this game will never be ready for you soon enough. Even if it comes out tonight. The point is that as long as the word alpha is associated with this game you should have no expectation whatsoever that it will run flawlessly and have every feature you want. None. At All. Get over it.

    If you still want to rant, at least do it in another post. No one here cares how the game runs on your server.

    btw mega_newblar, none of this is directed at you ;)
  4. Morbophobie Apprentice Engineer

    There is not THE one point of reference in space - as well as ther is no up and down. To have GPS you need a point of reference - The Sextant uses the stars/sun/... as reference points. For the GPS we have satellites as points of reference and then we use the surface of the earth as reference to position ourself on it.
    You also need a point of reference in space - actually to find out your exact position you need 4 points of reference.

    Imagine you have only one point of reference - for example the sun. Now you go from the sun 300 km up. So the sun is 300km below you. Now you rotate the camera. Now the sun is 300km above you. Since a direction is relative to the point of view only distances are absolute figures. And since a single distance is not sufficient to know your position you need 4 distances to 4 points of reference.

    That's just relativity. Your reasoning is flawed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
  5. megapro Trainee Engineer

    "- changed shortcut for exporting a model to: CTRL+ALT+E (previously CTRL+E)" This one was really needed THX Keen :)
    The old combination really bothered me because I'm using ctrl for flying downward which often resulted in exporting models by accident and I wasn't the only one with that problem http://steamcommunity.com/app/244850/discussions/0/616189106536850833/

    You just need three points (triangulating) ;)
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
  6. mnjiman Trainee Engineer

    If they are already selling this in stores in boxed versions, that is a different issues entirely then how this game is being developed.
  7. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

    You know I always hear about people comparing one public alpha game to another how about instead compare a finished games closed alpha and compare it to the other one that will give a clear goal of what has to be done in order for the game to finish.
  8. galacticon Apprentice Engineer

    I think you'll need some vanilla way for managing waypoints for AI navigation later on, we'll see.
  9. BiZZ Keryear Apprentice Engineer

    Yeah, using UPS* could be also very misunderstanding.

    *= as in Universe Position System
  10. mega_newblar Trainee Engineer

    Fair enough, perhaps I came across as overly critical. I just took a look at some of the bug reports... I no longer doubt that 72 crap reports could have occurred.

    For example, imagine you were a developer, and you come to this thread:


    Or this one (which I might add is better than the first):


    And those are just the first couple threads. The rest vary in quality.

    Tldr; There seems to be hardly anything in a majority of the bug reports that anybody could actually use.
  11. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Well, G for Global is just wrong. G for Galactic is also wrong, unless the scope of this game goes beyond our solar system. Since there are so many non-solar system skyboxes out there it's hard to figure out what is appropriate. I would have thought that our Sun would be Zero. Or is it the center of the galaxy a la Star Trek? This is why, to me, zero should be defined by the player or server admin. On the other hand, if there is indeed going to be a game, it should take place in our solar system and be bounded by the extent of the asteroid belt and zero should be the sun, with "up" and "down" aligned with the solar plane.

    Players might benefit from a separate inertial navigation system block which will let you decide where zero is. These things use accelerometers and gyros to figure out where you are relative to the place you were when you activated it.

    GPS as we know it requires multiple reference points. Currently we use satellites, although radio stations have worked for aviation for decades. Since this new in-game GPS does not reference any artificial reference points, I am assuming we are using celestial navigation. That's usually how it has been handled in science fiction books and film (you young folks... just think videos). If your nav computer can see the stars and perhaps the strength of their RF it can tell you where you are relative to any other place, meaning that this system will allow you to define zero.

    So, we could have CNS or CPS, with an INS backup, and/or we could have a SONS (Solar Orbital Navigation System) run by some governmental authority.

    There would probably be a Pirate Navigation System, but I'm not going to be the first one to call it by its acronym.

    Yeah. YOU say it out loud. Then use it in a sentence.

    Anyway, GPS works because we know what GPS as we know it does, but that's not exactly what we're doing in the game, therefore I suggest something different.
  12. mnjiman Trainee Engineer

    The only thing I want right now is a way of getting rid of beacons pop ups without pressing tab.
  13. Textor Junior Engineer

    Welcome to IT.

    When I get a ticket from a user, it tends to be like, "Keyboard is broken."

    Ok, when did it stop working? Did you spill something on it?

    anyhow, flip to about an hour later, it turns out they have a crumb stuck under the S key and that qualifies it as the "keyboard" not working rather than:

    "the key next to A is really hard to pre and I need omeone to take a look at it for me."


    "My computer won't turn on."

    Ok, what does that MEAN? is it not receiving power? Are there beep codes? does it react when you press the power button? Did you bother looking at the monitor to make sure it is on?

    If you need a billion other examples:


    Anyhow, point of this post: People suck at telling IT people what the problem is, and so when I hear "I've complained about this issue 20 times already!" I always look at it with the skeptical eye of, "Why did it take you 20 times to get us to fix your problem? Is it because you are incapable of giving details?"
  14. Replic TuaniOne Apprentice Engineer

    Mr. Random here,

    Probably been said several times, but I need to say (although I really love these updates!) that the text block thing was a bummer...
    I was so spend seeing this, but once you used it was like.... clear screen... need to press T to see the text.... oh....

    I really hope there will be something simple like sign or something with that textblock, even if it's just for small words, now it just looks weird x3
    The GPS is cool though, and not complaining! sorta... just wish to have that text block extended in the next update :)

    Keep it up :)
  15. Morbophobie Apprentice Engineer

    3 points of reference are enough for 2D and since the surface of the world is flat it is sufficient enough. The other possible point would be somewhere in space and the system simply ignores that result although it is possible. But to locate something in space you need 4 points of reference.
  16. MechanizedIT Apprentice Engineer

    Morb is correct. If you have three points or reference, and you say i'm X distance from point A, X distance from point B, and X distance from point C, the coordinate you are describing actually represents two possible locations, one on each side of the plane made by the three reference points, which is why you need a fourth reference point (this point has to exist somewhere outside of the plane) which can be thought of as representing one side of the plane. Its more about geometry than relativity. Also, navigation requires those four points to be fixed and unchanging for the purposes of navigation which is where relativity comes in.

    It should also be added that each point of reference must have data associated with it, such as name, otherwise what is to distinguish it from the other points of reference.

    So how would one navigate 'realistically' in space engineers, well like we already do using 4 beacons, which is how I think the 'GPS' feature should eventually work. The player should be required to own 4 beacons, that the game should check to make sure they are not all on the same plane, and then the 'GPS' system should work off of those beacons, and you should have to be in range of those beacons. So, you could put those 4 beacons on a station, but navigation would be limited by range of beacons which would require beacon relays similar to antenna relays, so when a player drops an antenna relay, they would also drop 4 new beacons.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
  17. jmantheb Trainee Engineer

    This is awesome but I was kind of hoping the text could be displayed on the screen without having to open it. Haven't had the chance to really experiment yet though.
  18. dark3mpir3 Trainee Engineer

    Thank you so much for changing the CTRL+E hotkey.
  19. Scanner Trainee Engineer

    What would really be amazing, is optimizing mulitplayer so that it isn't so buggy that I consider uninstalling the game. Maybe that is too much to ask though.
  20. Ed Frost Senior Engineer

    I get what you mean, and I admit its quite frustrating, but some things are really hard to code in such way that it works perfectly, and im sure they have people working on it.
  21. leewells2000 Apprentice Engineer

    Keeping in mind that the landing gear issue is the same as the connector, rotor, and piston issue...
    Landing Gear Reports: http://forums.keenswh.com/search?searchid=37130676
    Rotors: http://forums.keenswh.com/search?searchid=37130694
    Pistons: http://forums.keenswh.com/search?searchid=37130695
    I'm well over 100 reports. Most are complaints and don't really let anyone know what's going on, however, if you dig through them, there are 70+ (I think it is closer to 90+ now) substantial bug reports on this issue that provide a description, replication steps, that are replied to by developers with that it will be looked into. The issue is not fixed yet.
    If you want to see something super-scary check the dates on the oldest reports. Keeping in mind that with a critical engine issue with the game, every block added makes the fix exponentially more time consuming (as each module has to be updated after the engine update), and that they have less than 20 developers, and that they are now working on another early access game, I have no faith that this will ever be resolved.

    I don't think Keen has the resources to fix it at this point and its not their fault -- this community has been cheerleading them to add! add! add! moar! moar! moar! shiny! shiny! shiny! utterly complacent with the current engine issues with the game even when warned by other community members over and over again. Keen gave the majority here exactly what they wanted -- a shiny single player experience.

    Now that they're getting tired of playing with themselves, they are some of the same people you see now moaning that DS is horrible -- just a few weeks ago, they were cheering when keen released the sound block, unlimited worlds, etc. All any professional software developer could do was cringe as we see this train (a potentially awesome game) have its quality de-railed by its own community (the worst kind of demise of a game and community).
    With that said, your SP player fanbois here on these forums are easily identifiable because every update added they seemingly can't cast any critique. Whether or not they know what they're doing (ie intentionally fanboing to sabotage the game) or just mentally challenged is yet to be seen, but the clear fact is, at this point no one should be cheerleading for Keen right now. People should be getting real about this -- in fact they should have been real about this issue a YEAR ago.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2015
  22. Masked Death Apprentice Engineer

    I am not going to have my game freezed for a few seconds as a punishment as using CTRL to descend now. (CTRL+E fix)
  23. Textor Junior Engineer

    Heading towards Beta release is not caving into the community. Most of the features you reference have been in the works for a long while and the surprise is more from the fact that they came out when they did rather than the idea of the feature itself. The programmable block, for instance, was announced on June 4. It was released January 1. That's nearly six months, and the feature isn't even completed. They have also openly acknowledged that the netcode needs much work, still.
    I've been playing with my friends on a dedicated server since the DS client came out. I still cheered the release of these new features because they are great to have. Yes, I have encountered bugs in the DS, but I simply work around them. It isn't the optimal solution, but since I know that the DS is even more Alpha than SE is, I take it in stride. It's seen vast improvements since the first DS server release. I will not argue that it is perfect, however, because only the delusional will think the DS doesn't need work.

    Attacking the people excited to see new features in a game they like, then accusing them of being the people destroying that very game because you believe they should all be berating Keen constantly for not fixing the issues you have decided are a high priority is a poor argument.
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