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Update 01.091 - Bugfixing, New scenario editor options

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by George.Mamakos, Jul 16, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. osiventa Trainee Engineer

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    Just a shot in the dark but maybe they need missions done before they can implement AI. Neural network AIs need a end goal to work towards.
     
  2. Sentinel-Ghost Apprentice Engineer

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    This ^

    Scenarios may well be the foundation for other things such as roaming NPC's/Mobs etc, which may eventually end up in multiplayer.
    Also just because they've released more scenario stuff doesn't mean they're not working on other things at the same time.

    p.s I think its far too soon to be hoping for Planets...
     
  3. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    But Keen has obviously completely misunderstood what the proper implementation for missions/scenarios is. I hold that very few people thought about this kind of singular, fixed goal missions when they requested missions/scenarios. What people wanted where missions, aka goals, that tied in with the general survival play and gave you something to do in your ongoing endless survival game. The mission editor they are doing is a.) something only few people will be interested in that will be played on special "fun" servers and b.) something that is largely pointless until a better netcode comes along.

    It's less an issue with Keen not being in touch with their community, and more an issue with Keen lacking a coherent vision for their game and essentially designing it by committee, i.e. lowest common demoninator, i.e. we do whatever most people want. That's not how you design good games, in fact that is what everybody thinks is wrong with the AAA industry. Kenn should have looked at the community feedback and decided how to fit it with their vision of the game, not just take it by the letter and implement something. That's an ongoing problem with SE development - features get implemented so Keen can say "it's done" (Conveyors, autopilot, sorting block, update modules) but none of the features are designed to unlock the actual gameplay potential that at least I was imagining when the feature was requested.
     
  4. Drui Keen Update Guy Staff

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    EDIT 07/17/2015
    Update 01.091.011

    - fixed infinite welding
    - fixed crash - Game.Entities.Character.MyCharacter.PlayFallSound
    - fixed Scenario 02 crash when playing under different localization
    - fixed added null checks for steam service
     
  5. Thnikkalemur Apprentice Engineer

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    Fair enough. We can all speculate about what people meant by scenarios. I'll respectfully disagree that few will be interested. Playing through campaigns and missions with a group of friends (always assuming multiplayer is stable) is a primary way I'll be playing. (The other being single player exploration).

    You're not wrong. I didn't intend to promote design by committee, only to point out that folks trashing scenarios because "no one wants them" or "few people want them" is incorrect. I have to point out, with love, that while you argue against design by committee, you go on to say it is a problem that Keen takes ideas from the community and does their own thing with them (Conveyors, autopilot, sorting block, update modules), and especially a problem that they don't do them the way you personally imagined them.
     
  6. wd56 Apprentice Engineer

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    err Tazoo the same guy from Last Stand Gamers, the one who crashed, blew up all their ships and stations from their Roleplaying videos? This is going to be hilarious!
     
  7. Visentinel Junior Engineer

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    Infinite welding is fixed, thats awesome. I got used to noticing if the weld is taking to long i would stop get out and check if there's a missing component, Now i dont have to !
     
  8. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

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    It's not like you can't do that with these we just need more tools.
     
  9. Taurolyon Trainee Engineer

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    Oh my.. you are right! And the steam browser doesn't have my handy adblock! nooooooooooooooooo!
     
  10. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    Well I guess there's no point in discussing how many people will like something. Let's hope as many people as possible have fun. But the current scenario system is not the best approach to give structure and goals to a sandbox. Plus SE's sub systems, mainly combat, are not by themselves on the level that they'd need to be to carry that kind of short match.

    It seems I did not make myself clear then, apologies. The thing is that they don't do their own thing with them, apart from the fact that obviously they are the ones coding it. It mostly feels to me as if only the absolute baseline is implemented, just enogh to call it complete, but there is no overall game forming. What I would like Keen to do (or, perhaps what I would have liked them to do, since I don't think there is much chance now) is to decide what a feature was supposed to provide in terms of gameplay. The community can make suggestions, but it's the game designers who should shape these to, well, design a game. If, for example, the community suggests you implement a conveyor system, you can do what keen do and just turn everything into one huge inventory. But if you do that you cut the entire dimension of cargo and inventory management - which offers lot's of room for interesting gameplay - out of the game. They did implement the feature, but I don't think they did a good job at designing a game.

    Suggestions are generally part of a coherent vision of what you want the game to become. The devs need to see if that suggestion also fits their vision of the game. It's their job to design the game, they shouldn't limit themselves to just implementing the suggestions of the community as if they were completely separated from the other features.

    Well, I don't see how you could have running missions in an ongoing survival game currently. The most I can imagine is to give out items as a reward for destroying a specified block or something. And even then it actually needs to be all set up for every map individually, no procedural generation.
     
  11. malteins Apprentice Engineer

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    I really like that BUGS are fixed too, so everything runs smoothly before planets arrive. Yet I have the same intuition that planets will arrive for version 1.1! Nevertheless, we have already waited for so long, that a few additional weeks won't do much harm.
     
  12. malteins Apprentice Engineer

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    It would be nice if you can make the Video (intro/outro), for the scenarios, become fullscreen automatically in order to maintain immersion. I' mean seeing Steam's workshop window while on a mission is not attractive at all!
    Thanks!
     
  13. Geneticus Senior Engineer

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    Yes that one. If you look at the last patch Video (I think it was the last one) his name is in the control panel, also in the ME videos he used the name LastStandGamers.
     
  14. Geneticus Senior Engineer

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    A little disappointed the videos don't play on an ingame UI screen or on an LCD panel.
     
  15. CheeseJedi Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah - launching the steam browser to display them seems a bit... unfinished. After all it's only sending a URL to the steam broser, bit like the Browse Workshop butts we are seeing in the game.

    Whilst this is welcome and a good starting point, it is not really going to maintain immersion on a 'campaign' of scenarios. Wonder if the in-game LCD panels could be made to display a Youtube or other video - pretty sure this has been done in other games
     
  16. Odious T Apprentice Engineer

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    Jesus, get a thread where you can just share naked pics of tazoo or something.. are you guys really this moist about him?
     
  17. Odious T Apprentice Engineer

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    Agreed on the immersion point but expecting the game to embed streaming TY content is a bit far fetched..
     
  18. Thomas_Jefferson Apprentice Engineer

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    The problem I see, even with all those polls, and the "official" poll is that we cannot know how many responders are current, active community members. There were *many* people that didn't understand the game was unfinished, and joined the forums just to complain there was nothing to do. This was about the time of the official poll, which was posted in response to the large number of people complaining at the time.

    It is very likely that an unknown number of those "complainers" participated in the poll, then left the community. It is also likely that those people do not, and will not play SE again without scenarios. Could that represent potential players with the introduction of scenarios? That's completely unknown without real statistics.

    The real test will come if Keen advertises scenarios on the steam page, like they currently advertise survival and MP. If they do that, and the average number of players jumps and holds, then scenarios were a good move in the end.

    http://steamcharts.com/app/244850
     
  19. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    This made me dizzy.

    First, features don't get implemented so Keen can say, "It's done." The get implemented because they're done. Keen puts out assets and features that are in line with their vision of the game. Some aren't received so well, like that text-only communications block, and some inspire the masses, like the FTL drive. Keen creates these blocks and features because they believe they are essential to the core game. There is no pressure to produce something because "the community wants it" because modders give the community what they want (modders did FTL first). Objective observers can see that there is a clear pattern to the implementation of assets and features that is leading to a game that takes place on a vast scale (6.6 AU's, to be precise) on multiple servers.

    You do not see any gameplay potential with the addition of conveyors, autopilot, sorting block and update modules? We do not need these things? No one wants them? Anyone that is not clear as to how these things wre accepted by the community need only read the responses in the respective update threads, then watch Twitch/Steam Broadcast/Youtube in order to see the outrage expressed by the players because they have been saddled with these unwanted and totally useless blocks.

    I'm curious. What, exactly, is the "actual gameplay potential" that the developer has somehow misconstrued?
     
  20. CheeseJedi Apprentice Engineer

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    I guess where the video comes from doesn't matter. It could be local (perhaps part of a mod that adds a series of scenarios in a sort of 'campaign') or streamed off YT.

    Think of it like the ability to show a video of pre-rendered 'cutscenes' between scenarios. Sending us to the Steam browser seems.

    Almost every other story-based game uses a similar mechanic, so no, I don't think it's even remotely far fetched.
     
  21. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

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    that's what I mean. if they're doing it to save time, it would be a bit poor to make all new updates be just scenarios,at least considering their note.
     
  22. Cronos988 Junior Engineer

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    Sorry about that.

    So, anyone who disagrees with you is not an objective observer? Are you perhaps the last true scotsman? I won't claim to be always objective, but I don't harbour any grudge against this game or against Keen, I am just following the game with mild interest. And looking at that, I see no concept for a multi-server multiplayer game with vast distances. Mainly, there is absolutely no way anyone can tell what the new MP code will do, let alone assume that it will have a working multi-server structure (sending a player to another server is very different from actually sending grids over). But let's assume that is the case: What exactly is that game being played over vast distances? You described a setting, not a game. What are the gameplay elements for exploration, cooperation, conflict?

    That obviously doesn't resemble what I said in the slightest.

    Well, I did give a specific example in my last post: Incentory and cargo management. Perhaps it's unclear what I mean by this, think of the network management in Transport Tycoon or any similar game, or Minecraft pipe systems. Managing supply is a tried and tested gameplay mechanic in many sandbox games. Conveyors with unlimited throughput and instant item transmission cut all of that out. Not that we would have the tools to make a functioning network anyways, with just a simple sorting block.
     
  23. Thnikkalemur Apprentice Engineer

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    With you here. And thanks that is a super cool link.
     
  24. Thnikkalemur Apprentice Engineer

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    @Cronos988 I getcha now. I see what you are saying. I usually chalk the feature adds you are describing up to rough-around-the-edges, placeholders, unfinished stuff that will ultimately be smoothed out / fleshed out / balanced / etc. But I admit that is mostly my optimistic viewpoint rather than based on any hard facts. I'm still quite happy with the pace and content of the updates and got the itch to voice it when people got so negative about scenario stuff over the last few weeks.
     
  25. Odious T Apprentice Engineer

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    Technically far-fetched, you silly. If you've ever tried to prepare textures for video games you'll have some idea of what i mean. otherwise.. it might be worth pointing out that FMV cutscenes in games were always a bandaid over a loading join or a narrative crutch to support game storyline. The moment when games and developers became sophisticated enough to use the engine to carry the plot without ever kicking the gamer out to a flat bit of video was a step forward for immersion in general so like anything else it's good up to a point where something else is better.
     
  26. Samsonguy920 Apprentice Engineer

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    What developer gives you an actual timeline? If there are any that actually do, they are pulling the wool over your face. You do not speak for the community, only your self-entitled self. You have no idea what actually goes on with Keen, and yet decide to make stuff up to sound important. You only come out sounding ignorant and nobody worth actually listening to. Keep it to yourself.
     
  27. Thomas_Jefferson Apprentice Engineer

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    Plenty of devs give timelines and stick to them (MC in the old days, and Rust for example), but that wasn't what I was saying; In fact I'm really against timelines because it was better to be surprised, rather than expecting something they cannot deliver in a stated, or implied timeframe. You're in this convo a little late and it has been resolved. I agree that I shouldn't have said "nobody wants" or "entire community", and tbh, you just as much have no place calling anyone entitled. The rant wasn't directed at you, or anyone else here personally, and these forums give everyone a voice, whether it's constructive, or a rant of frustration.

    I have been with the community for a long time, and I can say that the opinion of Cronos988 is a little more in lines of what I should have written. I believe they are out of touch with these scenarios, and just because some people enjoy scenarios as individual missions, which I feel I may one day, doesn't mean it should be set into development at this stage. I believe most of the complaints were originally stating there was nothing to do in survival mode, not that there needs to be an additional gamemode. Also, based on the recent feedback, even Keen realizes the community hasn't been happy, as they addressed it in this update.
     
  28. CheeseJedi Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree that ideally you'd be able to deliver everything you need in game without resorting to a video clip. SE's scenario building tools are nowhere near ready for that level of integration presently, and being able to play a video clip allows a scenario creator to add more to the introduction/back-story/rules/whatever to get the player started. In this case I think what Keen has added allows a lot of flexibility.

    It would be nice if this had actually been handled by the game itself rather than the browser in the Steam overlay - that for me is the immersion breaker. The current implementation is almost certainly a lot easier to put in to the game than having to implement a video playback.

    Perhaps one day it will, and give content creators the option of using either methods.
     
  29. megapro Trainee Engineer

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    I guess they are just holding some features back and optimize them for version 1.1. update 100 has to be something special ;)
     
  30. Thomas_Jefferson Apprentice Engineer

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    Well, I actually took the advice of LordDevious and dove back into the source code after weeks of not updating it. Planets do work, and it's pretty cool seeing them in the distance. The 32bit engine that the source code is compiled to doesn't choke on them, and they don't cause any lag. Some things are a little buggy, like the atmosphere effect (which I believe someone is fixing), and the weird gravity bugs. I don't believe the current MP code would suffer any worse than it already does.

    I would like to see the MP code updated above anything else, and I can also see from the source that it is under construction. I just hope RakNet can handle it they way they hope. I'm really eager to see how they change the MP server over time, because RakNet has so much more functionality than Steam! :pbjt:

    Those update numbers don't really mean anything, they're just revision numbers. Too bad, because 100 does seem like some kind of milestone.
     
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