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Update 01.129 - Server Side Character Control & Client Side Prediction

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Apr 7, 2016.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    530
    To clarify the fanboys :

    who say if an game is in development, it cant be very playable ?
    I think you should read the laws and dont tell use what YOU think its acceptable FOR you ...
    In development it is to evolve and to get more content and to optimize - but DONT to get it running at all
    And i have NO problem it is was in an "Free" stage ....
    And yes - Early Access is to get the actual version that is VERY PLAYABLE ...
    No promise to develop it furter or optimize it furter ... thats all - not more - not less

    Regards
     
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  2. SayHi2Jesus4Me Trainee Engineer

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    You can be sure I'm never buying an early access game again. My argument is that after a game has been sold to the public for 2 years, saying the game is still "alpha" is just not an excuse that is viable anymore. It's dishonest. No other form of software could get away with that sort of thing.

    If Minecraft had made an update that caused most of the playerbase to be unable to play, I highly doubt it would have been the smash success it was. But Minecraft also had a proper release system in place from the beginning. This game, after 2 years, still does not. And KSH has a full team of development staff.

    Anyway, I am certain I will come back and play this game in a month or two if these issues have been resolved. I think Keen can get this sorted out over the next several weeks if they work hard.
     
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  3. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Can you not read? It says the game is getting constant optimisations and bug fixes...

    And it is "playable", albeit sometimes better than others.
     
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  4. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    You'll have it there when it's fixed and released too.

    Essentially your argument boils down to "Why can't I play the in-development game like a release game NAOW!!!????"
     
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  5. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    530
    I would not say EA is bad at all ......
    I have a couple of games in EA, and all move more or less forward .. many have reached an good state already (PrisonArchitect as good example, or PerfectGolf , or CastleStorry or Empyrion ..) but all this games have an main branch of versions where the player can play (with no or only less harmfull bugs) and an dev branch for the players who like to test new stuff at the risk of gamebraking bugs ... on SE i have no choice .. i musst play the horriblest patches and have as an result now the 2 week without playing in a row ... and the temmates from my DS dont get more happy over this ... btw. .. have already stoped to get more players or recrute more gamers for SE - it would only get the questions back to me, why i have he get in such an bugy game ....

    Regards
     
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  6. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    530
    To the fanboys:

    again - say me an state that is more playable than the PROMISED "VERY PLAYABLE" in MULTIPLAYER !!!
    You lie - simply

    and another "fanstory" :

    An relase game have all content and optimization already - THIS is the ONLY diff !
    This have NOTHING to do with playability !!!
    What YOU think is "in-development" is FULL irrelevant - no one care over individual rules , the one tollerate this, the other not.
    The only wat is a rule who stay for the law is the rules on the steam page , and here it says clear --> VERY Playable , Multiplayer !

    Regards
     
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  7. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    In development isn't a subjective term...

    The multiplayer is broken at the minute in order to improve it.

    Guess what?

    It's being developed...
     
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  8. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    530
    The multiplayer is developed - right ..
    BUT the customer have AN RIGHT still for an VERY PLAYABLE game IN MULTIPLAYER - nothing who you or anything say negate this !
    He can break the multiplayer without problems internaly or for an seperate testing branch .....
    if this make more work load to KSH - maybe - but this is not the problem of the customers .....

    Regards
     
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  9. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    The multiplayer actually worked sort of ok back when that was written, but if you pushed it hard with more than a couple pf people and too much stuff it got "moody".

    They're currently working on the netcode, this release video demonstrates that clearly and asks for patience due to the ongoing nature of the development.

    Also, it's a game.

    Chill dude.
     
  10. Nikolai Ludovik Trainee Engineer

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    7
    Anyway, all we can do at this point in time is to wait for the update next week... and at least get a good fix for these issues at the moment.
    That is all we can do... wait.
     
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  11. Vicizlat Apprentice Engineer

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    174
    To the discussion that's been going on for several posts now:

    If you are making a product and you are charging money for it AND you want to maintain and grow a community around it, that product has to WORK! It doesn't really matter what is stated on the Steam page or anywhere else for that matter. It doesn't matter what "in development" means. It doesn't even matter if your customers would have grounds to ask for refund or not - the fact they are considering it means you are failing to maintain your community, not to mention growing it. And for games like this, that's the most important thing. Because who cares if you've sold a million copies if you can't sell anymore?

    Having said that, I do believe that when you buy an Early Access game you should be a little more patient. The developers may listen and change according to the community and hopefully things will get better. I am waiting patiently, read the changes and people's reactions every week and wait until I see a turn for the better. Maybe then I'll be able to start the game again and have fun with all the new things they've implemented without frustrating bugs ruining my experience. And I would suggest that to everyone else who either has no interest in providing bug reports and testing things for the devs or finds the current bug reporting system inadequate, like me.

    Until then there are plenty of other games to occupy our free time.
    Have fun! :)
     
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  12. xiojade Trainee Engineer

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    82
    The thing is, SE would have been much much much much much further along it's development track if the community hadn't screamed at them for planets. They spent months trying to find a way of introducing planets that doesn't break the entire engine, and doesn't lag out the game.

    They achieved it pretty well, if you ask me.

    The community made grabby hands for something, and they provided. The community are now making grabby hands for performance and optimization tweaks before they game is even in the beta phase, which that is for. They haven't yet included their entire feature-set and therefore they are re-writing their entire multiplayer netcode to accommodate what they want to complete their game, and what the community wants them to do. I don't think they're doing a bad job, and I really don't think they deserve all the hate. True, it is annoying that things are broken, and very annoying that people have servers sitting there that are virtually unused for 2 out of 4 weeks of the month, but remember that just because a game is 2 1/2 years in development doesn't mean it's wrong to call it an alpha or Early Access. Look at other games, some of them are sitting in development for 5 years, 6, 7, even 10. It's just the current release cycles of other popular games that lead the mentality of the masses to believe they somehow deserve, or otherwise have a right, to get a fully finished and polished game within a year or two. Some developers manage it, but let me remind you that they use already established platforms, game engines, and have much bigger teams working on their titles.

    KeenSWH is a relatively small team in comparison to some of the giants, and I'm sorry to make this comparison, but I'm going to pull on my experiences with another popular game in a similar genre to this. Look at Minecraft, the big brother to the modern voxel-game revolution. I virtually started playing that when it started development and was released as a work in progress in May 2009, and didn't come out of alpha for 18 months and was built in Java, an already established coding platform. Believe me, it had MANY problems which consistently made it semi-unplayable between updates. Luckily its saving grace was the ability to downgrade to a more stable release until the new one was fixed (an option I believe Space Engineers needs to have). It took another 12 months to emerge from beta, so in all that's 2 1/2 years - about the length of SE's current consumer timeline.

    Minecraft is pretty simple compared to Space Engineers. The feature-set is comparable, albeit with a few differences, but the game itself still took 2 1/2 years to get pushed into a full release. Even then, if I'm honest, I think they rushed it. Space Engineers has many things that Minecraft would never do. It has a Newtonian physics engine, it has block deformations, building stages, millions more poly's, it has more things to calculate, it has more things to render, and a hell of a lot more things to process than Minecraft does, not to mention that the guys at Keen built on their own engine, in the same timescale. If everything were as simple as constructing the universe with nothing but cubes with 16x16 textures on them, the game would be done in a heartbeat.

    It is very true that they need a playable game right now - the last 3 or 4 updates have been riddled with bugs that make it difficult to really do anything without a massive amount of risk that is by no means the fault of the player, however remember that they are working on something big and beautiful. They listen to the community, they work hard to give the community what it wants, and rest assured that they really are working on these problems, they simply can't guarantee that everything will be fixed because YOU want it fixed yesterday.

    @R-TEAM , As previous posters have said, dude, it's a game. Give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that they will have it nailed down soon. They're re-writing their multiplayer code and releasing bits at a time, which is bound to wreak havok with things that haven't been updated yet. Things get missed, other things get changed, but at the end of the day, they are human beings just like you and I. They're passionate about what they do, they want to make SE into a spectacular experience, they just need a little support from all of us to do it.
     
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  13. Shangaran Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    8
    This update makes servers unplayable, i cant do anything without glitching back and forth a million times only to die by hitting a wall anyway, seriously why would you make the server control player positions your adding so much time for responses to be seen, it litterally made playing on a server just like playing blind, you have no idea where you are until the server updates to the client and even then everything relies on that clients internet connection , and making servers run everyones characters is simply making the server run slower due to excess processing thus slowing everything down , its a never ending cycle.....
     
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  14. Vicizlat Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    174
    Well, you said it. :) That and/or a stable branch while they improve and test new things in another (beta, unstable or whatever you want to call it) and I am sure the community will be happy and the angry posts will diminish significantly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
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  15. Hemp Plan[e]t Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    157
    i would prefer different branches system. Sometimes i really don't want to start the game because it makes no sense for searching new bugs on DS when u need 20x more time to get started. Only then i can deliberately try things. But yeh i don't want to sit here 100h to help u reporting a small bug which gets no compliance because there are the biiig bugs ^^

    and pls understand there are much people who would love it when they can play an more stable version then now on a chill-weekend

    greez and don't see all hard ;)
     
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  16. Ricktor87 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    TL/DR - Chill;)

    Confirming the reactor band aid found by Com Rotal earlier. I have a single planet with about 10 pirate stations scattered across it with failing sim speeds "only things with reactors'', upon using spectator teleport to bypass the turrets etc, and disabling reactor conveyor usage, my sim speed went back to 1.0 - .95, take a look at your reactors keen, I think they are leaking.

    Side note - some people do need to take a break from SE and all beta/alpha participation for a while. I for one applaud keen on keeping up the hard work, this could have very easily ended like *cough starforge cough* and then you would all be up a creek without a jetpack...

    Yes bugs happen, does it irritate some people, sure, no reason to go all hate on the boards about it, as they have already acknowledged the issue and ARE working on fixing it. If you would like to do what MOST people who sign up for beta/alpha access do, then start giving them game logs they can find solutions quicker instead of "rawr game are not werk, gimme cookies!" People also don't remind others about the EA of the software as an excuse, it's a fact. Regardless of if the software has been out for 1 day or 100 years, it is not considered to have left beta/alpha/release state until the DEVELOPER decides it is ready to progress to it's next stage of development.

    I haven't frequented discord, nor have I been around xocliw's streams as much as I would like, but the first time I was on there, some discussion started about a few glaring issues, and he genuinely looked as though he understood where the community was coming from. Hell he even answered one of my questions pertaining to a bug and the reaction the studio had the next morning when they found out about the issue.



    So jump in your cryotube, and stay frosty. They'll be back with a new fly swatter on the next patch.
     
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  17. DS_Marine Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    494
    Hm that's the problem, a lot of ppl jumped in their crytube .D
     
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  18. FaXeN Trainee Engineer

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    8
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. SweetPorkSlice Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    21
    Totally agree! I was thinking abot the same thing when this update was released, Devs was talking about character movements are server sided, blah blah. In my opinion they just made game even more pain in the ass, they created another source of lagg on top of other laggs, out of nowhere. Now game is even more depended on how stable the server is, if it's not, then you will be dealing with huge rubber banding laggs all over the place, server will be kicking you back and forth untill you endup colliding with something and die.... whyyyy the helll would you make movements server sided??? Whyy????
     
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  20. Ricktor87 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    One advantage to this method is synchronization between each player and grids they are in contact with once it's sorted out fully.

    Think of it like this, your actions are sent to the server and you move accordingly. The ship that's drifting along at 104m/s is constantly in motion relative to the servers simulation of the object. BUT if you are acting separate from the calculations of the grid, then you will NEVER be able to maneuver around a moving grid with separate simulations.

    Remember back when all ships and non-static grids would vibrate furiously for EVERYONE on a server except for those either in the same town / physically connected to the server machine? That's why.

    Again, just give it time....:D
     
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  21. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    Seeing the way the conversation went over the weekend, I thought I might share this.
    In SE I have this pretend corporation I call Asteroid Mining & Modification. It has a backstory that is wrapped around it's first ship, the Felix Pedro.
    [​IMG]
    This is actually for separate ships merged into one. This is mainly accomplished with Darth Biomech's Docking Clamps, but the one on the end uses merge blocks. Three out of the four ships are essentially cargo storage. When functioning normally, the goal is to get ore from the drills in the front to the refineries at the other end, then all the ingots eventually fill up the entire ship and it all goes back to the mothership Chilkoot Trail. I bring this up because it seem the top topic this weekend has been conveyors, conveyor tubes, and sim speed. I should also point out that I play the game on a Dell 990, which is more of a server workstation and definitely NOT a gaming machine. I play creative single player.

    So, the upshot here is that there are a LOT of conveyors and conveyor tubes in this thing. There may well be more conveyor blocks in this build than total blocks in some other people's ships. That, and since there are four separate ships here stuff can only get from one to the other via connectors which haven't been identified as culprits but I wouldn't be surprised if they were, indeed, culpable. This weekend was the first time in about a year that all four ships were merged together and the first time ever that I was able to move ore from the drill ship all the way to the rear section, unaware that conveyor stuff is being blamed for sim speed loss.

    There is definitely sim speed loss when all these ships are in the world, together or separately. Not enough to halt playing, just enough to notice. What has been frustrating is that with these ships in the world my CPU usage stays above 90%. I have a 4 core i5, but we all know it may as well be a one core i5. With 16 gigs of RAM there are no problems in that area. SE fences off 50-60% of available RAM and seems to settle for that. Problem is that with SE running there's nothing left to run OBS so I can stream. I can deal with that by running OBS on a separate computer, but the issue for me has been CPU usage and not so much sim speed. I can't help but think they're related anyway. I'm looking forward to hearing more about progress with multi-thread optimization.
     
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  22. FaXeN Trainee Engineer

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    8
    Which Graphic Card are u using ?
     
  23. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,174
    Dammit, I knew someone would probably ask me that. I've been flipping back and forth between different computers and I can't remember model numbers right off hand, but I do know that the graphics card is NVidea and it's only a couple years old, if that. It came out of my son's full-tilt gaming machine when I bought him a newer one which right now I'm thinking is a GT750Ti that is overclocked, but don't quote me on the model. He said the real difference between what I have and what he has now is the new one has twice the RAM.
     
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  24. Ricktor87 Trainee Engineer

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    Hehe - It's the internet of course the first thing to expect someone to ask is for hardware numbers. lol :D

    Off topic - Cool ship man. Looks very industrial oriented. :tu:
     
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  25. Zanzikahn Trainee Engineer

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    46
    I am aware that a lot of games allow client side management, but I will still stick by my allegiance to Server Side management. ;) It is just better in all regards. I would rather the server be my limit than to have a client dictate my limits.
     
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  26. Zanzikahn Trainee Engineer

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    46
    Guy, it is not the server side prediction that is the issue there... Your Server Sim is going down to .17.... The world is too big and needs a reset and with that fluctuation, someone is either doing some extensive mining, welding/grinding, or maneuvering a very large ship in a populated server with too much going on. This game is yet to be optimized, so don't act like it is... :woot: Firstly, this is NOT the place to post bug reports... Secondly, expect the game to get worse before it gets better while they overhaul the whole multiplayer coding system. Thirdly, the game is not optimized, so do not expect large worlds to have great Server Sim.... :woot: :woot: :woot: They have their process and direction in applying a better multiplayer code, so trust in it. As far as I can see, multiplayer actually plays a lot better than it did. My server's CPU usage has never before been as low as 15% till now. They are doing good with their direction.
     
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  27. striker_lord Apprentice Engineer

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    163
    The Youtube video is not from my server, this is an example someone else send me on request to see if other servers experienced the "up and down" SSS as well.
    this happens to medium to large worlds and is a persistent issue that even persists after extensive cleanups and only 1 player in the server.
    Trust me, read the source material in the topics :) it has been extensively tested on our end and we keep getting to this symptom after about a week of server run time where it first shows itself (small deviations on the SSS at first but regresses with time).

    I know they are working on it and i have seen progress and some bumps, but this is a very big bump which can be easily rolled back.
    It's simple, which is the bigger issue; an unstable server environment after severall days or incidentaly wrong spawn locations....?
     
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  28. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,411
    My reaction when someone asks me to roll back a feature
    [​IMG]
     
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  29. Spavvy Apprentice Engineer

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    188
    its gonna be as hot as the meal you ordered a weak ago - microwaved at best
     
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  30. dills0n Trainee Engineer

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    3
    As far as rants go, this is epic! I'm not sure if it's google translate or this person tried to use subtle word plays. I'm just sitting in the caboose of the hype train, stalking "new multiplayer code for DS and clients" ... it's the same with the KerbalSpaceProgram hypetrain...

    edit: sorry I'm just taking it all in...in case you don't know he's not using an onomatopoeia for "What does the llama say?!"
     
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