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Update 01.168 STABLE, DEV - Beta Bugfixes, Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Dec 29, 2016.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    There are some annoying bugs squashed with this release...and I am happy that I don't have to start the game 5 or 6 times to be able to play after the thing crashes loading my world. This is good.

    Less good is the fact that there are several REALLY annoying bugs that have yet to be handled....and they are pretty well known, and affect a number of players.

    1) Merge blocks don't. They only have one job to do...and they don't do it.

    2) Small grid landing gear when initially placed and welded simply do NOT lock, meaning you can't anchor a new build small grid ship. This was flagged up a while back and still hasn't been sorted. Makes building mall grid ships in survival a PITA.

    3) Wheels still look horrid without correct mirroring. I love the new models for the wheels....but DAMN....they look so wrong when there is inverted tread on the other side.
     
  2. Shanjaq Trainee Engineer

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    45
    I'm curious what KeenSWH actually does for QA. If only they had basic unit testing things like this wouldn't make it to production, it could be as simple as having a savegame with a bunch of test ships in a projection buffer, and they could just press a button to begin construction so they can run simple validation scripts that attempt to use the blocks and assert pass or fail on the results.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    This is not a finished title ... it's early access. That means people are buying an unfinished game which is full of bugs. There is no need for QA other than to be sure the game will start. The players then find and highlight bugs for the devs to solve. It's not QA in any meaningful sense but it means every player is effectively part of the testing team. There is no obligation to fix every problem immediately or to test every configuration to see if problems happen, instead the reliance is on bug reports and submitted error logs.

    They set themselves a pretty tight schedule for patch updates, releasing fixes every week....so that gives you an idea of the time available to check any given release.

    Personally, I think they should move to a monthly update now which would allow more testing and give more time for feedback....but it would mean any issue that does slip through would affect all the player base for a lot longer...so it's not without it's drawbacks.
     
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  4. TechNick Trainee Engineer

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    40
    Actually, It's Beta now. Alpha implies early access, but we left Alpha because Keen has decided that the game is finished enough to take it to this stage.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  5. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,866
    The game is as much Early Access now as it was in alpha. Going to beta didn't change that, it will stay Early Access until Gold release, which is when the game is considered finished.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  6. g4borg Apprentice Engineer

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    271
    awesome bugfixes. but you should really have some holidays!

    also, MAYBE the third person camera in a cockpit should really start to use the whole ship instead of the cockpit/character as reference. it is one of the details that keeps annoying me a lot, especially because the raycast sometimes fails to place the cam outside the ship, e.g. hangar doors seem to be ignored* by it, and you have to enclose the cockpit either totally or not at all. or add a third camera switch which stays outside the ship, instead of the character. after all, this game is about the ships and the creations. it shouldnt stay too character centric.

    i am just hoping, you will not introduce food and such as basegame - pls dont focus overly on survival, focus on implementing npcs, more control over the solar system (like asteroid belts or areas), and less player triggered events / more dynamic events - i think its actually the exploration part, thats lacking. survival as it is seems easy, because there is nothing to do. i'd hate SE turn into empyrion, which only offers you hours of gameplay because the stuff is stretched behind itemgrind.

    *) okay, maybe its the other way around, as i dont know if you raycast out or in - actually thinking about it, it may be out, so the problem is rather that it doesnt ignore a hangar - and maybe this is even worth a bug report.
     
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  7. DS_Marine Apprentice Engineer

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    494
    You're beating a dead zombie horse that is beating a dead horse.
     
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  8. TechNick Trainee Engineer

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    40
    No, its not early access. its very late access now, the early access excuse only works so long, in my mind, till they announce its Beta, which they have done "not my fault" and were also in the day and age where games will only be considered truly finished, when nobody plays them any more.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Nick_A Trainee Engineer

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    72
    Thank you so much for writing the hotfix summary!
     
  10. Kiithnaras Trainee Engineer

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    Waaaait a second...does that mean they deliberately broke things? ; )
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  11. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,866
    I think you're gonna have to look through Steam's early access library a bit more... There are plenty of early access titles in beta there ;) I'm sorry, but it means what it means. Facts are facts, and they don't change because you want them to. Perhaps some of your confusion stems from the fact that not all Early Access developer publicly states the development state at all. For the record, I don't like early access any more than you do. Probably less. People in general don't understand what early access is, and honestly can't be expected to, which then results in a seriously unfairly poor reputation to us programmers for something that's just par for the course and outside of our control. Software development takes a lot of time. Where I work we just recently released the bare-bones version of an online accounting system, after a little over two years of development - and we got a lot of praise for our speed, and we even won a design award. Now which do you think is the most complicated, a glorified calculator or a physics-based, 6.6AU sized game where everything is editable?

    I'm sorry, but whether or not you want to accept the facts, they are what they are.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
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  12. Zilla Trainee Engineer

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    9
    Have a great new year Keen. I just recently started playing SE again and i'm having a great time. Yes, there are annoying bugs and crashes but overall, the experience is fantastic. Also, i just wanted to add that the landing gear issue has actually been fun to work-around in game. I'm an engineer by trade so i like the challenge of fixing problems. I've been making what are basically jigs/stands for welding to build my vehicles and have found that i enjoy doing this way better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Executor Trainee Engineer

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    15
    Are you guys working on the System.AccessViolationException error?
     
  14. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    144
    LOL... Absolutely a perfect Hotfix update note "- fixed crash fixes (Too many to count,too few to list)"
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  15. TechNick Trainee Engineer

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    40
    Well done on the glorified calculator. I have never stated its easy "programming", and of course early access means, being able to play what's available in whatever state it may be. but at some point, the word Early has to fall away, not because I want it to, but because the definition off early is just not what the case is any more. Beta means, its nearly ready for full release, just working out the last wrinkles. they are still planning on major changes, which shouldn't be carried out in a game that's already reached its beta stage. "not that I am complaining that there going to make more things better and more advanced" but people "including myself" shouldn't just be able to change the meaning of what things mean, its illogical. so, if I say after years of being in early access "or alpha" that its now beta. then the term early access does not really apply any more, even if I say its early access, does not make it true. its just, access, to beta. not really early, because if people hadn't played alpha "early" this long. the game wouldn't even exist, let alone be in "beta" you could argue its now, early beta. but then, beta used to mean. now we can start testing it. "we have already been doing that for a long time" in all honesty, its not ready to be called beta. but there it is.
     
  16. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,866
    @TechNick It doesn't work that way. You normally wouldn't have access to the product before gold release, which is when the product is finished, after beta. Then and not before, is when the world early falls away. So yeah, it's still early access. Accept it or not, this is what it is. I tried. I have been programming for more than 25 years. I'm quite aware of what these terms mean. If you don't want to believe it, it doesn't really matter... won't change a thing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  17. Hemp Plan[e]t Apprentice Engineer

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    157
    I hope we can play SE with 100+ people on server one day without -1000 simspeed ;)

    I hope it's not just a dream :(
     
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  18. 15TBlackhawk Trainee Engineer

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    2
    How about we work more on performance issues? I constantly fight some sort of random, centralized, highly powerful gravity fields on astroids. There's also issues with choppiness (assuming lag) when exploring for a short period of time. There's more, but that's what I am mostly concerned with at the moment.
     
  19. StyleBBQ Trainee Engineer

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    73
    Large Drills still not drilling or gathering ore in 'normal' mode. Note: I haven't checked this just dropped Hotfix; but only "note" for hotfix was fix crashes, so assuming Large Drills haven't been addressed. Bug reported in bug forums.
    Also, creating a new "Station" and "Convert to Station" not 'sticking'. Used old iconed/style "Create Station" block, added cockpit, reactor, piston & Large Drill. Ass soon as drill pushed against asteroid, 'station' took off. The Convert tried multiple times to keep an in-orbit (zero-g) platform as a Station, keeps turing into a ship. Gave up and put thrusters on it.

    Bit of a rant re documentation:

    First. I freely acknowledge that I have no idea if Keen has incredible, internal, documenting practices or not.
    Second. Their public documentation is very bad.
    Third. In -any- field, the more complex a 'thing' is, the -more- important good documentation -is-, period, dot.
    Fourth. Any 'thing' that is expected to be maintained, updated, repaired, etc., requires documentation, if only to avoid it becoming prohibitively expensive.
    Fifth. "We stand on the shoulders of giants..." yes, and only because they frickin wrote down, -and- _shared!_ their work.

    Consider, "We hold these Truths to be self evident..." Yeah. And they still wrote it out anyway!

    Sixth. Money. $$$$. Want it Keen? Then -sell- more copies. One way is very, very clear. Listen to your customers. Make them happy. How many -paying- _reviewing_ customers are asking for simple patch notes?? You made a game that tends to attract intelligent folks. They're scratching their heads wondering why they're not kept in the loop. And, bad news for you Keen, they're inately smart enough to know that there's simply no good reason for you to -not- do a _much_ better job of communicating with them.

    Big Scary One. What if the internals are as bad or worse than what we see? That's my personal feeling and fear. If so, then this game is already dead. I say that because, if they don't have much better internal documenting than what we see, then the code is simply un-sustainable & un-supportable, which leaves it dead; or, to be fair, crippled and on life-support (where life-support = the few old folks who still visit occasionally).

    Some may not agree. Okay. But consider my background to say what I have before lighting the torches. Been in the armed services, engineering college, a home builder, maker of medical devices, tech write, Unix sysadmin, now senior IT-Sec engineer. So, never a programmer, nope. But worked with many before, so I know the fields general apathy and resistance to documenting. I've also had to deal directly with the results of poorly documented projects, and it's why I ask some of the questions I do before taking a gig; I simply won't bother being dependent on systems/tools that aren't well documented.

    Final bit to chew on. Consider millions of lines of code. Written by just a few folks. Imagine everything working. Now those folks are onto newer things. Outside influence mandates updates/changes (Win patch, DX fix, etc.) something breaks. How do you fix it? The original programmers may know immediately, or they'll at least have an idea. Right? A new but experianced game coder may have a really good idea what to look for to address a graphics palette issue. What about an OS patch that changes floating point precision? And it's an in-house written physics engine... good luck.

    One recommendation: set up (and maintain!!) a simple bug -acknowledgement- page for crying out loud. Do Not friggin tell us to "search the forums to see if it's already been submitted..." that's F- customer experiance and it's damn lazy too.
    -YOURE- in this for the money, I ain't. Any assistance I provide, it's a freebie to you (and bug reporting is pretty damn important, no?) but it -costs- me. So by not encouraging your users, you're effectively hurting yourself.
    ... And if you -don't- have a clearly designated 'maintainer of the bug list' then.... wth...? How can you -not-?

    Enough. rant off sorry non-Keen folks. Hard to watch this sometimes; like seeing Amy Winehouse self destruct on drugs and booze... sooo much potential, but gone too soon.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
  20. TechNick Trainee Engineer

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    40
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. StyleBBQ Trainee Engineer

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    73
    Thanks TechNick, though I'm feeling a bit like Clark Griswald in National Lampoons Christmas Vacation after his boss rant...

    "Clark: Hey! If any of you are looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Frank Shirley, my boss, right here tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?"

    Where's the Tylenol indeed :munch:
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  22. pologoalie8908 Trainee Engineer

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    19
    Still floating over a lake with wolves around me in solar system survival...no drop ship
     
  23. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    First off, they've sold over 2 million copies, which by indie studio standards is pretty good, you also have an inherent flaw with your logic, you've already paid for the game, they have your money, they honestly don't have to give a rats ass about your wants, you're just a single $20. Your vote should hold no more meaning than mine, and I say i don't really care about patch notes, only results? so now what? were at an impasse

    And to be honest, it's probably just that, fear. By writing this you are baselessly fearmongering, and that doesn't do anyone any good. If the internals were that bad, it likely wouldn't have survived the 3 year mark, as far as i know, the programming team has been changing over this time, and it has caused them issues, but assuming after you get burned once by it, you might consider adding some heat shields.

    These issues can be found anywhere, i've worked in engineering firms where i've had things thrust on to me after 10 years of development (that i had nothing to do with) and am suddenly expected to know exactly whats wrong or how to fix it. Guess what though, 3D models don't typically have ANY documentation with them aside a few revision notes, atleast in code if you write a snippet you can leave a comment as to why it's there... I personally don't dig through the source, but from what i understand from people like malware and other divers, is that it's not terribly nice code, it's not super well kept, this is why things are taking longer than some might expect. The scope of the game has increased well beyond what the original code (that was acceptable at the time) can easily support and be maintained.

    The term "Growing pains" comes to mind if i had to describe keens approach at this game, give them time and they will deliver.

    (btw divers, if i misunderstood please correct me)

    I believe what you are looking for is this:

    http://forums.keenswh.com/threads/the-bug-list-to-end-all-bug-lists.7387661/

    if you used that search function you so condemn, you might have found this thread PINNED near the top of the bug reports section.

    If you don't like where the trains going, get off and maybe reboard at another station further down the line, maybe after the tracks actually complete? EH fuck the metaphor. Please don't try and drag everyone down with you
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  24. Kecon Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    The latest patch/minor update killed the game for me. I'm not able to drill using small blocks, since it's impossible to enable drills, and I'm all out of ore.

    I've seen a couple of minor updates during the last few days. I wondering if you try game breaking mechanics before you deploy a new release? Not being able to drill is something what I call game breaking. Perhaps you should have a basic QA to do a quick run, gathering some ore, building some blocks, etc to be sure that it is playable? It was impossible to drill like two or three hotfixes away. Unit testing is not enough, if you use that.

    I'm not using any kind of addons, just plain vanilla (to avoid most issues).

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    144
    IF Clang goes away completely there is only Damage, no Wear and Tear or Accidental systems failures built into the survival elements of the game. Anything remaining is scripted or expected.. (pirates, Meteors, PVP battles, crashes)
    There will be less need for redundancies and such. Less need for Real Life Engineering as a result. You just build it, it works as advertised. A Clang-less world will be too predictable. (goodbye Hindenburg/goodbye airbags)

    SO IMO, CLANG, in some form or another needs to remain. It is like the beast in the machine. the freak accident, that Perfect Storm. It's that unknown ELEMENT that rarely any other game has worshippers

    or websites dedicated to
    !!

    Everything elsewhere is usually so scripted with a only a few versions of disasters available, much like meteors, pirates, and NPC Fauna are. Too predictable with some. You can easily counter if you have the right plan and resources.

    Life is truly unpredictable like Clang in some ways. In most other games, an event happens, you learn, you counter, and move-on, sometimes never dealing with it again. Clang can be insidious, lulling you into a false sense of safety. It can be Brutally in your face as well. And there is really no way to predict it, only hope to prepare for it. (redundancies, backup plans, best practices, etc)

    Clang is Omnipresent and all to seemingly able to surprise you in ways you would never think of! Like running deathly low on O2 you run to your door to get into the ship and it fails to open (no reason), setting out for a 5km blind jump and finding yourself millions of kilometers way in another quadrant, OR merging ALL of your ships together for the first time just because you can and then watch them spin out of control into an asteroid as you watch in utter disbelief. That last one was my first intro to Clang.

    After all, it is Space Re-Engineers, right? Make the bugs, make the crashes go away, but find a way to keep a totally random "God Like" element in play. [joke] That one thruster that keeps over-firing (have to manually adjust or shut off), that turret that cannot seem to pull ammo (better run instead), or that medbay that fills your O2 canister with H instead (accidental death lawsuit).

    The game, in a way, creates it's list of events that play out like a story events game such as Rimworld while still maintaining its player story driven, unscripted role-play element open world sandbox focus. It makes an otherwise builder game

    Not just a bunch of legos to put on the shelf or just blow up. Clang, while annoying, at best, still, at its worst, brings about some incredible events what would never happen otherwise. I just sacrificed a ship by crashing into a planet on purpose in deference to a major game element. Fear of the Unexpected.

    "All Hail Clang!"
     
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  26. Kurazarrh Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    210
    The thread you linked hasn't been updated since October 20, so I wouldn't point to it as a great example of how to do things. It was a great start, but such a list is worthless unless it's kept updated.

    But I've been pondering the same thing for a while. I happen to be QA lead for several software projects at the company I work for, so my experience ought to be relevant here. We have an internal issue-tracking website that we use to track bugs, bug fixes, and feature requests. We don't have ours open to the public or our customers, but it's a feature that we could enable if we wanted or needed to. Implementing some kind of public-facing tracking feature could help Keen quell the thronging users, who may post the same bugs over and over again without a developer ever noticing (or replying to) it, and who snip at each other over posting the same bug as someone else, either because they didn't run a search or they did, but the keywords they used didn't produce any results.

    If you look at Minecraft, they have a solid, community-accessible bug reporting system through JIRA. Since it's designed for issue tracking, the developers are easily able to see all new bugs (sort by new/unassigned/not duplicate) and can easily mark a bug as a duplicate of another one. Sure, reporting the same bug is a waste of time, but if one user reports an issue as a "momentary freeze" while someone else reports the same issue but calls it "occasional lag," searching for one won't generally lead you to the other--until you link them together using bug-tracking software. If your "occasional lag" poster puts next to nothing in his post, but the "momentary freeze" poster was quite detailed, then if I come along and search for "lag," I could open the "occasional lag" bug, see that it's been marked as a duplicate of "momentary freeze," then click on "momentary freeze" and see the description. Now I know I don't need to post a bug!

    I think Keen might find a community-facing Bugzilla or JIRA installation helpful in that regard. Forums are not a great place to track bugs, and bug trackers also really help with other things, like weeding out regressions (old issues that were fixed and then are broken by new changes). Then, when they post the changelog for new versions, instead of writing up a brief summary of the bugs that were fixed (omitting plenty of them), they can simply search for bugs that were fixed for the current version and copy/paste that list. Especially since Early Access players are basically outsourced QA, this is a great way to help them (us) determine whether or not something was actually fixed. What if a bug was fixed, but it was simply missed in the deployment? Or what if it was fixed, but only for people with nVidia graphics cards? If we're testing the game, we need to know what to test, what's still broken, and what we really need to focus on testing.
     
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  27. pologoalie8908 Trainee Engineer

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    19
    I would also like to throw my two cents in for patch notes....these notes are terrible. In your videos you tell us to check the change long on the forum. But you go about giving us more info in a video but no documented changes for us, your target audience, to look at to keep you, the producer, accountable for your changes. Take a look at "The Fun Pimps" who make 7 Days to Die. Their patch notes come out to 7 pages in a word doc some times. And that's an average. Tell us what exactly you fixed! Don't tell us you fixed a crash issue. What was causing the issue and what did you do to fix it.

    http://7daystodie.com/2016/10/ Take a look at how long and detailed these notes are.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  28. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    I honestly didn't check, I kinda figured they would keep it up to date, maybe he needs a poke as a reminder.

    And there in lies the issue, chances are keen does have a system like this in place, but to be honest, this community (which I am part of) would probably scream even louder and cry more if they seen the lists of bugs, they'd be complaining and moaning "Why isn't bug X fixed? I demand X to be fixed right now, I don't care about bug Y, bug Y shouldn't even be a priority" I can foresee that causing more problems than it solves. With the likely outcome being even more complaining, would you release your internal list of bugs?

    But here's an issue with the JIRA system vs whatever keen is using, My "Momentary freeze" could be caused by a physics calculation, where your "occasional lag" is on the network side of things, minecraft is an inherently simpler game and IMO has a lot less possible root causes of two issues that could possibly be the same, in SE i think it's actually statistically unlikely that you can link the two together, which leads to bug reports that get completely missed, and not reported by other users because it's been reported already.

    Duplicate reports aren't always the worst thing, sometimes detail can be missed, or maybe slightly more consistent steps to reproduce, a number of benefits can be had from duplicates.

    however go back a dozen patches or so and we probably had 20+ threads of people complaining that the GPU failed to initialize and they gave 0 detail, no logs, and no useful info, they just went basically to complain, they wouldn't even have to had use the search function, at minimum there were 5 threads on the first page titled more or less the same. Clearly even very obvious duplicates in this community is ignored, so making a list that people have to look through probably wouldn't help anyway.

    Apparently i probably should have kept this quote and the one above together, but now im too lazy to fix it, so see above.
     
  29. Tigerstripe Apprentice Engineer

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    479
    Isn't starting with a landing gear just another flavor of hoop to jump through?

    The rotor head trick is far superior, for many reasons. If your rotor is powered, then your new little grid will be powered, so you don't have to worry about filling a reactor before you put a conveyor over the port. Your new batteries will begin to charge immediately, while you keep building. If you build the rotor on a wall, you can rotate your build to access all sides without needing your jetpack. Rotors are stronger than landing gear, and won't detach as easily if you add too much weight. You have control panel access through the base large grid the rotor is attached to. You can put a cargo container right next to your build site, and have access to all the parts you need within spitting distance of your project. You can even have welders nearby to help you build. And so on; use those engineering skills.
     
  30. Krienas Trainee Engineer

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    37
    With 01_168_006 64b DEV simspeed had dropped to 0.40-0.43 in creative SP with one vehicle. Had this problem with BETA release, but it was gone after some hotfixes. Now it is back.

    EDIT: It appears to be false alarm. Restarted PC and it is OK now.. Maybe should do that more often :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
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