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Update 01.168 STABLE, DEV - Beta Bugfixes, Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Dec 29, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. StyleBBQ Trainee Engineer


    I'll acknowledge that I got a wee bit worked up, and it came across that way.
    I'll also agree that that isn't the best way to have others listen to you.

    However. I did try to stay in a, "I 'statement' to Keen" mode; though I did get off track and make broad blanket implications as to other players desire for better notes.
    Your comments directed at me were not terribly polite. Maybe that's intentional, maybe not. Certainly possible that your experiance with the game, forums, etc., have resulted in you expecting extremes only, which is understandable.
    I would ask that you not assume I'm at either extreme. Though to be fair I can see how the fear I expressed about, "then this game is already dead." could be taken that way.
    I don't accept the "fearmongering" shot. I clearly stated at the beginning that I had no inside info, then made clear the following was my fear.
    Anyone incapable of controlling their reactions to things people write on the internet simply shouldn't be on the internet.
    It's not my responsibility, nor yours. to try to protect them. That's for the Moderators to decide.

    I think that we'll have to agree to disagree about a lot of the rest.

    These are my opinions. Keen has expressed that they do care about our opinions by asking us to vote for their game. And my opinion is my own. Not anyone elses. Expressing that opinion is something I feel I've earned as I have purchased the game ($25) and have submitted bugs and made suggestions. All done with the intent of helping, not hurting the game.

    For clarity: I want SE to thrive & make it big & everyone at Keen to make fat bonuses. I also want wheels, pistons, drills, etc to work flawlessly. These are not mutually exclusive desires.

    Grindy, I don't know you. I honestly have no idea if you're just having a bad day or something else. Doesn't really matter, it is what it is, and it's okay.
    The last bit below is honestly -not- directed at you. Yeah, it will seem like it is. Truly it's not. Your reply did get me thinking along these lines, totally true.
    It's also something that's been taking a significant portion of conversation lately, the whole PC thing; Trump, why/how he won, the Dems rioting, etc.
    I'm saying this honestly. My friends older than 30ish aren't really understanding those younger; we're seeing the Left/PC crowd being really intolerant and incredibly judgemental.
    So much so that it's now much more difficult to talk about sensitive things than it's ever been in my lifetime and there's seemingly zero tolerance for truly innocent questions/mistakes.
    That's a very harmful trend, in my opinion.
    ==End of response to GrindyGears.==

    If I take the time to write... , well damn near -anything-, then Keen should be grateful. Not, here's a basket grateful, no, of course not. But truth is I have gotten off this bus a few times and you know what? While off elsewhere I never wrote anything to Keen. Not a bug, nor suggestion, nor "whine", so to the real hardcore "fanbois" crowd I was the perfect player. Except. I wasn't, playing, or -helping- as even _negative_ criticism is helpful. No, I was in fact frustrated with SE and the few times it came up it was fairly negative. So to those really smart "fanbois" who jump anything negative and tell the poster to stop whining and go away? You're making it -worse- for Keen, the thing you're trying to protect.
    If you really want to help, then, well hell, just -help-. Don't go around telling everyone to stop whining, throw em a bone, like this thread where some peeps offered ways around the small ship landing gear bug. Ones I read didn't call the OP a whiner or stupid, they just , 'helped'.
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  2. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    If it came off as rude to you, i apologize, I myself may have stepped a little too far. I'm honestly just an ass and can't read situations well.

    I myself, have no inside information either, but when you make comments like "the games already dead" or its dying, when things seem to be going, at a reasonable and (to me) satisfactory pace. If you go into a restaurant and when someone coughs you make a comment about something dangerous like salmonella in the kitchen, people tend to get scared, even if it's not even close to the truth or not even relevant.

    hmm, interesting to bring politics into this, I don't really recall bringing it up, but fine, I'm about as far right wing as they get minus the religious parts. I personally don't like PC culture (politically correct) I think it's created more problems then its solved, but thats just my opinion on it.

    I've been burnt enough times by people not understanding the younger generations, Hell even I don't understand most of the people in my generation.

    It's not that were intolerant of these innocent questions, or mistakes, rather we're tired of them, we've both potentially been around the forums long enough to have seen a great deal, but the fact i have almost 1300 postings, vs your 53 tells me you may not have been as involved (i do stand to be corrected on this, please do let me know if im incorrect here) and I think a lot of us are tired of all of the doom bringers, and harbingers of the death of SE, getting constantly bombarded with rant threads trying to sow seeds of destruction, we're all just sick of it, so please forgive me for seeming intolerant.

    I'm happy to help people, i've offered in many different threads, if people have trouble with klang i'll see what i can do to help, but when things are beyond my control theirs really not a lot I can do. I mean I have a number of friends on steam that I see quite consistently playing SE and if I happen to ask what they're up to, they tell me usually survival yet every other thread is people complaining about survival, so maybe I get a skewed sense, maybe i just assume its whining, probably bad for the few times it isn't but for the rest it's usually pretty spot on.

    Yes, the small landing gears are a problem, but as this thread has mentioned there are currently ways around it.

    I mention the bugs that plague me and what do I get? Silence, because Keen themselves have broken the game for me with no work around, and when even I can't solve the problems with rotors and pistons, well, i guess pretty much everyone is shit outta luck...

    Wow, I sound like the bad guy here... Shit...

    TLDR: I'm tired of people whining, I suspect other people are as well.
  3. StyleBBQ Trainee Engineer


    Fair points all. And our "participation" rates are as you listed, and it's good to hear that you've spent so much time helping others.

    I totally 'get' the "just sick of it" part. While I didn't intend to swim in those "doom bringers" waters, yeah, me expressing my fear the way I did, yep, that'll carry that tune, even if unintentionally.

    I haven't, intentionally, read much of these forums. Mainly just patch note threads when I'm actually playing. Those have seemed very polarized and are my main source for the 'temperature' of the forums, fair or not, it's what I see. And also where my comments about fanbois came from. Seen a lot of very aggressive beatdowns on posts that, while not always written with compassion, were certainly written with passion, heh.

    As to whining... yeah, that gets old, no question. If I could though? Maybe it would help a bit to consider what's likely to make you grind your teeth? Like maybe the simple word "piston" makes you see red. Maybe skip some of those posts/threads for sanitys sake :D

    Another bit; I'm not a good writer. It's either "just the facts Ma'am" or generally too emotionally loaded. The Silver cloud? I do care enough to write; at least sometimes.

    As to this sequence of events. Beta came out, Large Drills stopped gathering ore. Search for threads, see comment somewhere, but not in bug forum. Post bug report. From my perspective I can't tell if anyone at Keen has seen the report. Patch comes out, put in comment there, stating I don't know if I should as I'd filed a bug, no response.
    Now, for me playing offline, vanilla survival, well you know how useful Large Drills are, so fairly significant, at least to me.
    Other hotfixes, patches, nothing about drills mentioned, but clearly notes are less informative than usual, so who knows?
    So I've been loading up world to see if fixed yet, getting frustrated, thinking, self? What? How could Keen not fix these, the smalls work, shouldn't it be fairly simple, and important? You'd think, yeah. ... Self? What now? Please stop answering me back.... :eek:ops:

    Point is, yeah, I tried, sort of. But also need to take my own advice above; lack of info was making me grind my teeth and that came out in my rant (at least I called it though!).
    Guess it's like yelling at your kids when they're late when really you were just worried if they were okay.

    As to politics, no you didn't bring it up. I should have written something more general about being cool, or something.
    (psst, agree w you about the PC stuff, wth right? Quick! look innocent, here one comes...)

    Anyway, thanks for the replies and Happy New Year too us all!
  4. Kurazarrh Apprentice Engineer

    Any decent bug-tracking software (I've only used Bugzilla and a little JIRA) has controls for the owners/admins to determine who can do what on the site/in the software. But Bugzilla and JIRA are also intended to let you operate on a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" philosophy. Bugzilla, at least, allows you to vote on bugs (either up or down, basically), to give the developers an idea of how many people are affected by said bug, which helps them prioritize.

    Further, there is some correlation between "whiny" users and ignorance of the subject and any solutions. You're going to see a lot of confirmation bias, because people who have problems but who can't solve them will be far more vocal than someone not experiencing them. In my own case, if SE runs smoothly on a given day, then I'm probably off building ships instead of lodging complaints about the game. Can we agree that that's probably the case. Those "whiny" users, since they aren't savvy enough to solve the problem, also aren't likely to be familiar with solution sources. For instance, if you regularly read /r/SpaceEngineers on Reddit, you'll commonly see people posting about issues and asking for help related to subjects that have solutions stickied on these forums. A surprising number of players don't even realize Keen has forums--the subreddit doesn't even have a freaking link to the forums! The likelihood of said vocal players actually finding and signing up for a dedicated bug-tracking service is, in my estimation, quite small.

    Anecdotally, it's worked for Mojang for a long time, and it's not like their user base is any more informed or less vocal than SE's. And Minecraft hasn't been without its growing pains. So yes, if I were in a decision-making position at Keen, I would have a community-facing portal for the bug-tracking software, but it's much more involved than merely "releas(ing) your internal list of bugs," as you put it.

    No, duplicate reports aren't a bad thing, necessarily, and you're right that multiple people reporting the same issue can each offer new insights and angles for approaching a problem. However, the ability to merge or link related issues (and mark/resolve dependencies) is worth a lot when you're in Quality Assurance.

    Users who aren't tech-savvy are also prone to misusing terms because they don't understand the semantic difference between lag, dropped frames, and simulation speed issues (or they don't know a better way to describe their experience). Yeah, they signed up for an Early Access game, but myriad comments on these forums show people don't understand what that means; they just want to play a fun game. And that's cool, too, but developers and QA need a way of consolidating confused/frustrated users' bug reports into something they can digest and track internally.

    EDIT: I forgot to address the issue of preventing duplicates proactively rather than culling them reactively. I don't know about JIRA, but the recent versions of Bugzilla have actually gotten a little smarter about that. Nowadays, if you enter a bug with too many keywords that match one or more other bugs, it'll actually stop you and say, "Hey, this bug may already exist. Take a look at these bugs and see if they're a match. If not, then you can go ahead and enter this bug." Handy little feature, I think.

    And I'm too lazy (and quite possibly a little too drunk) to go rifling through your post history to find out what you mean by that. Does that make us even? ;)
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  5. Michael123 Trainee Engineer

    Hey great job and hard work on the bug fixes but I have to say no offense but the rotors... They suck big time! What the he double hockey sticks!
    1. you cant place it without placing a tube first.
    2. you cant have any blocks near it because of a tiny millimeter offset of the grids...
    3. fix the rotors make it flush with the other grids please or just make it all one grid... you cant place a tube on it after (and its its only form of support ??? )
    4 rotors are the least forgiving single most annoying object in this game... Like why just why can a rotor attach to a head on a different grid but the rotor and ship cant all just be one grid
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  6. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    And since beta they entirely broke the pistons and mergeblocks, with a lesser extent rotors, I'm not one who simply complains about clang destroying my stuff, no... i don't suffer under his wrath, i embrace it and build around it, however when they break a more or less working as intended feature (much like your drills) it means they're making what could be significant changes to the code for reasons us peasants don't really need to understand.

    You're not as much as a doom bringer as initially thought, apologies all around, have a happy newyear

    Oh and for unacknowledged bugs the guy who seems to run the bug section for SE I23I7 was on vacation since dec 13, he's got some catching up to do, but it should hopefully be acknowledged soon.


    I used to work at a company, for the sake of trying not to slander, i'll call it company 'XYZ', Now this company had a somewhat complex system for tracking change logs and requested changes (not for code specifically), Now the problem with this, is for very minor changes it's far too much work than what it's worth. because of that hassle, the line of what was too much hassle, or just enough became a bit blurred, and people were putting in requests for changes, doing the changes, and never finishing the paperwork on it. My tenure there was to try and sort through this list of "bugs" exceeding 500 where any single issue could have 10 attached or unfiled changes, which lead to a nasty spiderweb of trying to keep track of things. Anyway, my point is the software's good to give to the public when it could be cut and dry what the possible causes are. In SE as I stated above, having a minor "lag" could stem from any number of sources, while the person beside them could be experiencing a similar "lag" but for a totally different reason. opening a public bug report system like this would be a nightmare, how many bugs and derivatives of bugs fall under "Crash caused by....but this time it was caused by...." nobody would likely be willing to read through 30 pages of bug reports to figure out if the exact circumstance they have has already been filed. we can see that now, with the amount of people who don't even bother to do a 5 second search to see if the bugs been reported.

    Also I've been there done that with the squeaky wheel approach, it works great when your bug count is reasonably low, when it's as high as SE it just becomes a hindrance in trying to sort out bugs. It can also lead to false sense of who is actually experiencing a bug for example:

    I'm looking through the repository of bugs, I see something like this: "Crash caused by..... in multiplayer" Now, I don't personally suffer from this bug, but i'll assume because its MP related and i've been moaning for a better MP forever i'll vote it up. When in reality it could only be experienced by such a small amount of people, for reasons like it has very specific trigger criteria, or maybe its on system specific hardware, point is, it can be dangerous.

    I agree, KEEN needs a way to do this, not in the eye of the public though, People aren't coders and thats okay, but letting them see and try to have a say in how things are dealt with is generally bad for development time.

    An example of this could play out like this:

    We see two bugs that catch our eye, bug 2 cannot be fixed properly until bug 1 is fixed, but bug 1 isn't bothering me so let me complain they aren't working on bug 2, because i don't know that/understand how bug 1 is related to bug 2 i'll be mad that keen isn't listening to me. Now scale this up the size of SE and you have 20 minor bugs that need to be fixed before 1 major bug, but the community will cry that the major isn't being worked on.

    Basically the amount of time that Keen would have to spend trying to explain the spiderweb of issues to players could be much better spent just working on the issues.

    I don't like being left in the dark about as much as the next person, but my experience has taught me that many people should be much more afraid of what they can see when the lights come on, than what they can't see in the dark.

    hmm? All this meant is i had two separate quotations that had the same answer, i could have left one be or merged them, nothing more.

    Whats done is done, ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and clang to clang this game is going strong, as i have high hopes for the long haul
  7. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Focus in the survival gameplay in the new year...that makes me very happy.
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  8. Gakhon Trainee Engineer

    Good grief! No way I'm gonna start up the game after reading this. :( Physics and damage calculations were broken enough already even before this... Not to mention the small ship landing gear issue still persisting. Ah, I'll just continue to play Subnautica (which is crazy good, also in early access, with no bugs almost at all), or finally try KSP.
    --- Automerge ---
    Could you point out any finished proper game that Keen delivered which could give us reasons to trust that they will deliver SE?
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  9. Styles Trainee Engineer

    Late access would imply that the game was completely finished a long time ago and is now a classic game designed for outdated hardware... all SNES games are late access at this point :woot:

    If the game was just completed last week, you'd have "on-time access" ;)

    So yes, it is still early access - you wouldn't be complaining about bugs and such otherwise, because software can't be completed and buggy/incomplete at the same time ;) (if Keen abandoned the project, then it wouldn't suddenly leave early access status - it would simply be abandoned in the alpha/beta stages... kinda like how an aborted fetus doesn't suddenly become a fully developed child...)

    You also stated in another post that beta implied that it was close to release... the correct term for what you're thinking of is "release candidate," which is what they call a beta build that is almost done and just needs further review. If further tweaks are needed after that review, then a new release candidate is built and reviewed, rinse and repeat until no more tweaks are needed - then that release candidate becomes release version 1.0

    If a "glorified calculator" can take two years to reach the first alpha release, then a video game of this scale reaching beta in under a decade is downright impressive. And once any software reaches beta status, it can still take at least as long as the alpha phase before they start building release candidates - and while the RC phase is typically shorter than the alpha and beta phases, it can still take months or even years. Minecraft is a game that has had updates spend months in the RC phase, and it's nowhere near the size and complexity of Space Engineers.

    So now you've had several programmers, at least one a professional software engineer, attempt to clarify your misunderstanding of these well-established industry terms - the software industry will not change their definitions to suit your perception, so you're only creating frustration for yourself. We're trying to help you accept reality for your own sake - if you continue to ignore us and be angry because reality refuses to bend to your will, you're only hurting yourself. We get it, so our expectations are reasonable and in line with reality; we're not losing sleep or elevating our blood pressure over it. So take our advice if you wish, or keep harboring unreasonable expectations that set you up for inevitable disappointment - it's your choice. Reality will march on with or without you ;)
  10. Jackson McTerren Trainee Engineer

    I'm having a problem with scrolling (I'm on a laptop) where I scroll once (it also happens when I use a USB mouse) and Space Engineers thinks that I'm continuously scrolling. Apparently it's happened on other laptops of differerent makes, such as Erazer, Asus and Acer laptops. It never used to happen until a few updates ago (I'm not sure how many). As this bug makes the game scroll to the bottom of the g-menu, blueprint screen etc, and scrolls through each block variant extremely fast, it has made Space Engineers unplayable for me, so would you be able to try your best to sort it out please. One more thing, everyone at Keen Software House be proud of the work they have done on Medieval Engineers and Space Engineers and I would like to say thank you for tireless work creating incredible games for us! :tu:

    Edit: Inertial Scrolling and the Reverse settings are off, so it's neither of them that's causing the issue.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  11. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Considering they only have 3 titles to the company, 2 of which are currently in development, I guess that makes them 0/1 however based on how much more funding, and time they've put into space engineers I'd say it's not on the chopping block for a while.
  12. JasonG Trainee Engineer

    Yeah I do actually own other early access games, and that is whats pissing me off, look how far ahead other early access games are coming along, compared to space engineers, especially games that came out years after space engineers was started, and yet have more content, better art work and next to no bugs. You what it really is? They are lying to us, they are using the money from this game to build other things. That's what it is, oh well you know what, when they drop the ball another game company will just come along and pick it up when its popular again, so who cares any more, we,ve all been dragged thru this crap for way to long, in the end it will be their own loss.
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  13. Hemp Plan[e]t Apprentice Engineer

    My friend my friend. Show me such huge complex game without minecraft :)
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  14. Roxette Senior Engineer

    As anyone who has ever used any Microsoft product will tell you ... :D
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  15. Mr Engineer Apprentice Engineer

    A nice update, wasn't expecting one for this week. Thanks for the hard work Keen.
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    So, I made a post shortly after the update just to wish Keen a happy new year, then I went off to do other things and left my browser on. I come back to find several more posts.

    It seems Space Engineers may be in Beta, but the Change Log remains in Alpha.

    All fine and dandy, except this is the Change Log. This forum was created to discuss the update. If you have... misgivings... about the game, there are several more relevant forums to post them in. More to the point, this response from Grindy bears repeating:

    But that's not all that's tiresome.:
    OK, too timid to actually start up the game and find out for yourself if what you read is true. A lot of things people write about here are actually hardware related, which is the nature of PC software because no two PC's are alike, as opposed to consoles, but that last part about Subnautica... honestly who cares? No one at Keen is going to lose a second of sleep because you're not going to play SE. The post itself will go unnoticed by Keen staff (because this is the Change Log) and will be totally forgotten with the next update. If you wanted Keen's attention, this forum is the absolute worst place to get it. If you go through all the other forums and look for responses from staff, it should become statistically obvious that the Change Log is the least likely place. But you probably know that and don't necessarily care because the Change Log gets a lot of attention every Thursday and perhaps you're thinking you're going to get the attention of SE's biggest fans.

    There are millions of people that own the game, and hundreds of thousands that actually play it. SE's biggest fans rarely come here, if ever. You're more likely to find them in the other, more interesting forums. Thing about SE is that you either like it, warts and all, or you don't. If you like it but the warts get to be too much, then you just play something else. One thing that seems to be universal among SE players is that they don't need someone else to tell them if they should like the game or not, and don't care if you do. Or not.

    But what really gets me is that even after moving into Beta we still see crap like this:
    I looked everywhere I could but I was unable to find a more pure form of bullshit than this prime example. A rare blend indeed of baseless conjecture built upon arbitrary and immaterial anecdotes and personal opinion from a world where facts do not exist.

    And it has nothing to do with the update. Nothing.

    You folks that are really, really upset about the game for whatever reason, that's fine. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't be. Perhaps you should, I don't know. Point is, if you are, no one cares.

    Well, that's not true. There probably are people that care. Problem is they won't read your stuff here because they're playing Subnautica.
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  17. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Oh those nagging kids... I restrain myself from dealing with their posts as one should, so I do not drown in negativism as they do. It's contaminous.
    Update 01.168 works like a dream on my machine and I wish KEEN a mighty New Year 2017, with loads of new users of this game and ME alike who appreciate better what they got for the small price and what work is done behind the curtain.
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  18. Gakhon Trainee Engineer

    Putting the ad hominem aside, I think it stands to reason that the people who spend their time coming here and posting about issues are actually players who love the game, and would like to see it succeed and finally realize its great potential – instead of getting marginalized in an increasingly competitive market segment. SE still has some things to go for, but titles like Astroneer, Planet Nomads and Dual Universe are coming fast to capitalize on SE’s failure on areas like survival gameplay, multiplayer, stability and core game mechanics.

    I understand that for some players who have spent hundreds (if not thousands) of hours in the game it might subjectively make sense to treat it almost like a spouse, seeing only the positive sides and maintaining an unconditionally kind demeanor towards it. But it won’t change the objective pros and cons, and the overwhelming part of the market will react according to these. And since this game is, above everything else, a business endeavor by a company that needs to make profit to stay alive, its future will arguably depend on what the overwhelming part of the market does.

    (If somebody accepts the above points as true, it’s interesting to ponder that, in light of them, who does a better service for the game – the people who complain about the game’s shortcomings, or the people who would tell KSH that everything is going great.)
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  19. Cetric Junior Engineer

    This what you wrote here doesn't fulfill the worst category of commenting which I tag as 'nagging'. However, you are wrong with your categorization in black and white, concerning my attitude in contrast to others, as I also post bug reports and name things when they are not running well. I had to wait a full month of stable updating in SE with a 'world corrupt' problem which did not allow me to load any save. Did I start ranting? Did I start complaining and getting on everybody's nerves? No. And I am glad I had the patience. Because my problem got solved. The solution wasn't even a simple update, it was a mod for which I had implanted a 'foreign dlll' into the installation (this camera picture on LCD mod) according to its description. And a major developer of KEEN helped me solve this issue (I won't disclose who it was). And you may guess it by now, the defective game behavior wasn't KEEN's fault, and it often isn't here either, while everybody keeps nagging and blaming KEEN for it. That's what is annoying me, mate. People who have not purchased the game yet read people's crap loaded into the forum contineously and get afraid to buy the game. You should not want this. As you should be interested to see this product reach final stage while getting funded by new sales. A guy may have spent his tiny contribution of , let's say, 20 bucks back in 2014, and eversince spends his time with ranting here because his computer does not well with the high-demanding game, his Windows OS may have seen no patch for years, nor has his video card, he may (just like me) have installed a broken mod which causes trouble he - the mighty Know-it-All - is not aware of. But no, he needs to rant all the time here and spoil an atmosphere of companionship among early access participants.
    AND: He is forgetting countless hours of fun he had for two years or so with SE, because he can't get over some conflicts now and then, coming and going, while he anyway had his hundreds of creative fun hours for his 20 bucks. While he swallows the very low long-range attractivity by any 60 bucks high-profile major studio release he consumed meantime, which he might have forgotten in his game library after a couple of months...
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
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  20. Leonardo90 Trainee Engineer

    I can't agree with you. It's like trying to get rid of the core fan base of the Space Enginners which made the game amazing.
    I can't agree with you in some details too.

    It's not like Space Engineers is going nowhere. I had many, many hours of fun, and I'm still having fun, singleplayer or multiplayer. It's just the game buggy as hell for now. I love seeing new content and appreciate Keen's work. Moreover, I was amazed by how much love he puts in this game.
    My point is that Stable branch should be really stable - playable in every aspect. It should get only tested, non-bugged content.
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  21. JasonG Trainee Engineer

    wow I see that the hired forum trolls are back from holiday, funny how I posted my comments a few days ago and yet you guys are just now replying after the holidays. this isn't going to help your game any more, we are tired of it
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  22. Shanjaq Trainee Engineer

    wouldn't it be amazing if we could refer to specific issues with a global unique BugID, which links to a Jira or BugZilla record showing status and workarounds? So instead of saying "that issue where the thing and the thing do this thing that isn't correct", we could say "oh, this is Bug 1337, I will refrain from making the millionth post because I know Keen is aware of it."
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  23. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    The problem being that the average player cannot tell the difference between two bugs that have the same apparent causes, a bug relating to landing gears that causes CTD can have a pile of different conditions, triggers, and hardware specifics. So it's probably not terribly practical to try and look through 100 ID's to see if it needs to be reported, most people will probably just do it anyway.

    Oh and @opethbtbam can you tell us if your bug thread will ever be updated anymore or is that a lost cause?
  24. Shanjaq Trainee Engineer

    Rant Mode Engaged: I hate to sound elitist, but why should a developer cater to the lowest common denominator? that's like intellectual communism, the best & brightest will be hamstrung and drowned out by the droves of idiots & trolls. if they make no provision for intelligent dialogue in their community, they shouldn't be surprised if such bias is confirmed. at least with a concrete BugID the more savvy community members could kindly direct the nubs to a page where their issue is addressed without having to scour the entire randomclusterfraktrainwreck forum, which is often too much trouble to bother and the cycle of pain just repeats contributing to the collective brain-drain as those with "tribal knowledge" ultimately give up in disgust.
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  25. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Unfortunately quite often lowest common denomination is the loudest, most vocal and most likely to flame, the "intelligent" folks typically have the patience.

    I could inversely could say why should the devs cater to the "elite" few? It's better typically to appease the masses than to please the few. Less lynching that way

    You do realize that's more or less what happens now? Someone makes a duplicate report and people will often redirect them, if people won't use the search function on the forums, what makes you think they'll use it on some even more convoluted bug system?

    Also who's willing to take on the task of directing all of the nubs, most of the moderators are volunteers, and the few testers are already busy with bug repro so they can give the programmers a clearer Idea of what's wrong.
  26. Shanjaq Trainee Engineer

    Whoah hold up, they do have testers? Where can I apply to be a tester? I'm a Software QA Engineer by profession, maybe I can help? I specialize in Tools & Automation, so with the right debug hooks I would be happy to provide them with an automated suite of Unit/Integration/Stability/Regression Tests for all block functionality, just for starters. They could kick off the test pass after each Reverse Integration and have results within the hour. I have done this for two AAA titles and it has had a measurable positive impact in helping developers scope and scale their efforts according to the insights gained from a systematic approach with professionally documented tests, repro metadata and telemetry.

    This may sound like an extra burden on the developers, but look at it this way: The size of the problem is immaterial without insight. It could be a very small problem but if the developer is not aware of its extent then it will haunt them as there can be no definitive closure on the issue. On the other hand, it could be a large problem and they could get caught in an endless cycle of patching secondary issues piecemeal but never addressing the root cause, piling on tech-debt for themselves in the future. Insight is crucial, and systematic formal testing can provide just that.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  27. Cetric Junior Engineer

    My stable version is stable.
    And to ensure that, they keep sending out bug fixing updates in couple of days intervals lately. That is hard working and I appreciate. And what does a part of the audience? Things like that: http://forums.keenswh.com/posts/1287029613/
    Constructive criticism is needed and always helpful. But posting a pic of a dog in front of a computer keyboard and indicating it's supposed to be a look into Keen SH is not even a good joke, it's abusive. And certainly not encouraging developers.
  28. RedPhoenix Moderator

    Thanks for hinting that post. Didn't see that one.

    Anyway, I'm monitoring this convo, so please don't derail.
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  29. Hemp Plan[e]t Apprentice Engineer

    Can't wait for next big multiplayer update. It's getting better and better so i love it :)

    But if 6+ people connect on my dedicated root, simspeed will fall so extremely so people lose their fun - anyway keen is going the correct way now and i love the last point of following found in the job tab:

    • Design, program, debug and refine multiplayer systems, features, tools and infrastructure
    • Provide technical insight regarding multiplayer gameplay design and feature sets
    • Work with designers and other engineers to prototype, develop, and refine features
    • Implement new online features
    • Be the go-to person for multiplayer in our team
    • Maintain the smooth running of multiplayer in our current and new games
    • Be able to deliver a 100% solid multiplayer experience for Space Engineers
    • Later transition to MMO
    I hope keen knows how much players waiting for mass of players in their universe :)

    Keep up this work & sorry for my english :stare:
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  30. eviltek2099 Apprentice Engineer

    • Agree Agree x 4
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