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Update 01.173 DEV - New Skybox

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Feb 2, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    Real welders have a radius of zero. If the devs decide that entirely self-repairing ships and PMW's that can fabricate guided missiles easily from a welder or two is too cheaty then so be it. The game is not final and in my opinion a lot of changes need to be made still...
     
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  2. Lurch84 Trainee Engineer

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    63
    Well if that's the case they need to weld a -lot- faster and give us a layer option on projectors, welding small grid from a projector now is going to be a PITA with that range.

    In 1x survival this change means with large grid basically placing 1 block, get in your ship/drone weld it, get out/exit place next block get back in your ship/drone weld it, etc... added a -ton- of tedium there for even slightly bigger builds...
    I normally understand the changes and why but this...

    Love the skybox! It's a bit too bright though IMO.

    Oh and as far as killing players, safety sensors aren't hard to set up...
     
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  3. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    I maybe can see reducing the small grid welder range since their range was relatively large for their size, but reducing the large welder to a single block range is a HUGE mistake in my book, and I don't see the reason for it. This breaks so many builds and ideas, and even on the most basic level, now trying to build anything with a large welder ship is 9x as tedious. This is such a downer.

    Edit: I also don't understand one of the stated reasons that welders were killing players too easily. That seems somewhat random. Someone running into an active welder enough that it becomes a problem? Either a pilot needs to be more careful, or a welder should not have been turned on and left running, or, you know, a guy shouldn't be running around so close to the active end of a tool that spews sparks and death?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  4. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    Hey guys i have taken your feedback on the large welder and on the small welder for the layering. I will see what can be done but i make no promises.
     
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  5. HydroX Trainee Engineer

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    2
    I cant free-llok anymore with ALT, i dont have any mods installed.
     
  6. Konscience Trainee Engineer

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    54
    Can you tell us why the range have been reduced? Was it for MP balance ?
    Never tried to kill people with large welder either, does it is a viable option?
     
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  7. Balmung Senior Engineer

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    1,946
    It could also be a mistake by changing something in the code. ^^
     
  8. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    It was a lethal to new players. i have started a conversation about it in the office so the welder change will be reviewed.
     
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  9. Lurch84 Trainee Engineer

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    63
    Thanks for taking our feedback onboard :)
     
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  10. gordon861 Apprentice Engineer

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    131
    Another solution might be to have the range selectable in the control panel, default to 1.
     
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  11. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    The rotor is only there to allow me to use the copy paste function, landing gears that are attached to a large grid (locked) can't have things copy pasted onto them, as it appears to be a non aligned grid. It has no actual bearing on the test set up
     
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  12. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    I got the clang to reproduce. So its on the list to be fixed.
     
  13. Whiplash141 Junior Engineer

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    958
    I mean, y'all reduced the range of a block that was already hard enough to build with. Now welders are useless for welding projections because the range is pitiful and you end up missing almost all the interior of your ship. It is sad to know that y'all did this on purpose. A simple fix would be to reduce the player damage range while maintaining the original welder range, because as it stands, this change ruins gameplay for a lot of veteran players, myself included
    --- Automerge ---
    Yeah, let's remove engineering solutions from an "engineering" game. Oh yeah and lets add "realism" to a game where jump drives and artificial gravity exists.
     
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  14. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    It was a change done because the starter ship was killing a lot of people and there were complaints about the welder killing players. We did not take the initiative on that. If you feel like playing another game thats fine. There is nothing holding you back from exploring the choices out there. I do not know if i would consider the ship welder a "core foundation" but what i do know is that it still can be changed. I myself expressed concern for the change. We have weekly updates for a reason and this is one of them. After your feedback (the first one) i already contacted people about the change getting a negative feedback.

    Anyway lets not start a flame war. I wish you good luck on your game hunting!
     
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  15. Whiplash141 Junior Engineer

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    958
    Wat.
     
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  16. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

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    228
    Glad to hear it's being talked about around the office. I also just wanted to toss my opinion into the mix as well even if it's just a repeat of what other people have said. Essentially the change to welder range completely ruins almost every design with small grid printable missiles. Myself and many others have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours tinkering with ideal layouts for launching systems and the missiles they fire. I in fact purchased this game because of youtube videos showing the potential of actual physics based damage and the the player designed weapons delivering them. I'm not trying to say "do this or I'm gone" but the reality is that w/o the ability to create these types of weapons I just personally would have no drive to even play. I know, I could find other things to build and expand my horizon but the truth is everyone kind of has their niche in terms of what they like to build and intricate player made weapons are mine.

    edit: This is the reason I've been kind of up in arms over the issues with timers and merge blocks over the last couple months. Luckily those are bugs and there is a level of optimism related to that in terms of it being fixed. An intentional slashing of the welder range with explanations from the head tester focused around new players not dying is just a punch to the gut though :/.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  17. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    I hate to make statements like this but I will make them now.

    Between all that is happening with SE, this latest welder change is "the last straw" for me.

    - Merge blocks are broken.

    - Collision physics are constantly in flux with undocumented changes making combat ship development basically impossible.

    - Arbitrary and undocumented weapon "balance" changes that various make missiles and the launcher formfactors either OP or totally useless.

    - And now you break welders, which are core to the way people build ships, operate printers, etc. Like, with the current size of welders I can barely even weld up ships using small grid weld ships because they have zero range and thus can't get close enough to blocks to weld even in the most basic and old fashioned and manual sense.

    If SE cannot establish consistent metagame after years of development, and without coherent discussion or consultation with it's supposed "playtesting community", then I'm done with this game.

    ----------

    *edit - they also keep fucking with drill radius and voxel culling so you can't even have consistent/coherent miner development. I haven't bother with anything other than a brick of drills in something like a year because of all the surprise changes. All the while I haven't actually seen any performance gains, so exactly what is getting optimized?

    So, can't really mine, can't weld, and can't fight. What CAN I do other than be salty?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  18. I23I7 ME Tester

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    3,827
    For me its more a tool to be used for automatic welding :p but you did start ranting about it and people joined so it will most likely be reverted and tweaked. Instead of just a reducing of the radius.
     
  19. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

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    228
    I think this is a really really good idea however I'm going to add something to it if you don't mind. How about the welding rate scales based on the selected range? Shorter range faster, long range slower. The reason for this is because options are great in engineering games :).
     
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  20. iN5URG3NT Senior Engineer

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    1,132
    This latest short sighted, spontaneous and unfathomable welder decision only serves to confirm what I have thought for some time:

    Space Engineers is a mess. There is no coherent vision for the "game". I use the word game lightly as I'm not even sure the muddled mess of half assed features slapped together on a creaky foundation even qualifies as a game. You can see problems this causes in many places; poor implementation of extra engineer weapons; the continued absence of oxygen as the default; the ridiculous enemy choices; the still unstable rotors and pistons; the tragic sim issues when in battle; the shaky frame rate; no additional ship weapons; no aerodynamics, dodgy MP, bizarre and incoherent new block designs... the list of erratic, poor and downright stupid decisions goes on and on and on.

    I have little faith that SE will ever work as intended or that Keen even know what they want SE to be. I've persevered for two and a half years and I haven't seen any real improvement in a long time. I genuinely hope that SE will eventually make good, and be an amazing game, but I seriously doubt it.

    In the style of the update video, here's a quote to end on:

     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  21. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,799
    Everything is lethal to new players. It's not that difficult to realize that you shouldn't walk next to the welder when it's on. If you fail to turn it off then YOU get welded too. It's part of learning the game.

    Nerfing the welder range takes the engineering out of the game as in setting up an automated projection welding system comes into play for a lot of people who like the engineering part of the game.

    The other part is that by having a reasonable welding range, you don't have to get your ship right up to the grid that you're welding. Having a little wiggle room is a good idea since it cuts down on collisions that can be catastrophic with very heavy grids in such proximity to each other.

    The game shouldn't be impossible for new players, I agree. But avoiding an operating welder is more about recognizing the dangers than being able to obliviously fly/walk around. If you make the game PlaySkool safe for new players then you pretty much make it nerfed for those who've put in a few hours to learn the game.

    By all rights you guys can change whatever you wish whenever you want. But on some of these decisions a little community feedback beforehand would go a long way. It's not a democracy, but there might be good reasons not to change something even though you're trying to help another group of players.

    Oh, and thanks for changing out the spotlight model. The square one wasn't anywhere as good as the round one. Kudos on that.
     
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  22. Greystar Trainee Engineer

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    18
    now if Only i could figure out why my simspeed dropped to .5 at max even in a brand new empty world, things would be great.


    A very simple fix for the welder issue... Make them do NO DAMAGE, wow what an Idea. They aren't meant to be a weapon anyway. Reducing them the way you (Keen) have now makes them pointless unless you mod them back to the way they were and that's another mod that shouldn't be needed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  23. Lurch84 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    63
    This idea I like a lot, it would add to the gameplay, could have specific welders for specific purposes.
    Like a repair bay, large area but slow, park it and leave to cook (same with projector production). Construction probably med setting, gets stuff done but is safer to work around as you place more stuff. Priority construction/repair, the smallest and fastest option would be ideal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,799

    Logging out of the game and back in fixes the problem. Also flying off far enough for the grid to despawn/unload from your visual range and then back again helps as well. This seems to a problem with blocks built from blueprints. There's probably something about their ownership settings carried over from the blueprint but corrected once spawned
    Small grid welding needs some range to it. Blocks are tightly packed together and nearly impossible to weld if you have to get the welder head right next to the block. Ship welders provide a level of efficiency in terms of carrying more components as well as being able to cover larger areas of coverage than a hand welder. Being able to weld five small blocks worth of distance with a small welder is debatable. But three would be a nice compromise.

    The idea of being able to trade of speed for distance with a slider would be a welcomed compromise with the welder defaulting at the shortest range for new players. Well at least in my opinion. Having options are always a better solution IMHO.
     
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  25. puttyEngineer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    35
    I have an idea for SE dev : Welder is not a weapon, right?
    so welder shouldn't kill player, right?
    then make welder not kill player... RIIIIIIGHT ? ?

    Keep old welding radius.



    Also, the new skybox is soo pretty but there's blue glow everywhere... doesn't feel like space.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  26. Sarekh Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,175
    Come on now, please, good sir. I know, being QA and doing CM at the same time can be frustrating, but do you really want to tell folks that have been top contributors towards core elements of the game such as providing highest level-scripts and have hundreds of hours logged into game and forum to say "good luck on game hunting" when they are expressing concern or entering discussions with them about core elements of the game because you might not agree on that stance? Let's agree that this is something that's been changed without prior intel and that was arguably a core element in most builds that there are out there - and that there is not a non-tedious way to replace that mechanic and thus a quality element of the game has been lost.

    And while we're at it: if you talk about that with the game design department, please consider reducing the range of damage to players while not reducing the range of construction or at least play along those lines of thought. You don't just cripple an entire core mechanic because one aspect is wanting.
     
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  27. Mobiyus Apprentice Engineer

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    253
    I do not understand how people expect that they can develop ship combat / building / mining meta with the current release cycle and state of the game. At this stage, the game changes just too much too often to do this kind of things. Isn't it the whole point of alpha/beta/early access and a weekly release cycle anyway? To test stuff out?

    I can, however, understand the frustration when these changes occur. Wasting hours upon hours of work is a good reason to be angry, i can see that, but if you are working on innovative and complex design/script/mod, I'd say you had it coming. Please, stop it with complex builds, the game obviously can't handle it now for a bunch of reasons; devs making frequent changes being one. It sucks but it is what it is. All this messing around is to be expected, don't develop ship meta now or you are bound to be disapointed. It is obvious to me.

    If you don't want to feel constant frustration, do yourself a favor; take a step back and lower your expectations. That's what i did and i started to enjoy the game again, i just play 1/10 of what i was playing before and restrain myself to simple builds while waiting for the full release. I'm in no rush.

    Now that being said, don't get me wrong, i agree the welder change is bad. Just voicing my lack of understanding regarding the surprise of the community.
     
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  28. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    535
    Just started playing SE about six weeks ago. And yes, experienced "Death By Welder" a few times... especially when popping out of the cockpit of my small grid welding vehicle. It became an engineering challenge: So now, whenever I have ship welders placed, I also place a sensor, which turns them off whenever I am within X meters. Problem solved, and frankly, I enjoyed thinking up a way to solve it.

    I can understand why the developers don't want to alienate new players. Bad for business. But challenging players to come up with creative ways to overcome such issues would actually enhance the game experience... it's called "Survival" mode, after all. Better solution (and granted, more difficult) would be to find a way to better educate the player, rather than nerf the block.
     
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  29. Phathatter Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    2
    Hi Keen! I am a new player, and I have killed myself at least 15 times getting out of my small grid welder ship. It has caused me a bit of frustration. However, I can guarantee that it will never happen again, as it is now ingrained in my muscle memory to turn off the welder before I hop out. I also now look to make sure the welder is not glowing red when I approach. I think letting the player kill himself stupidly is a good reminder of the danger a space survivor would encounter. I already have trouble welding interior blocks on small fighters, so I think welder range should be up there. Also, my first creation which I have been considering publishing is a small grid gunboat that has self welding decoys, and that system will no longer work with the short range.

    I do love the idea of making welder range a slider in the control panel, sacrificing power (speed) for range, as maybe it would allow us to weld up quicker, and then set it to max to get that one interior block that was missed.

    All that said, this game is amazing, and I will be with you while the bugs get worked out.
     
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  30. Lurch84 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    63
    @Mobiyus

    While I agree on the meta thing being pointless and that people shouldn't be surprised/overly miffed at changes, I have to strongly disagree with the sentiment of 'Please, stop it with complex builds' (even though I have mostly given up on some rotor/piston combos because of the phantom torque). If we don't at least try to build something interesting, how are we supposed to find the bugs or limits with stuff like pistons/rotors/timers/sensors?

    (I'm feeling talkative today it seems)
     
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