Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Update 1.184.7 - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Nov 2, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Vanguard Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    21
    Okay, it doesn't exactly match the plume, but should it? All that hot gas is headed south, I'm pretty sure the heat would impact another block or two before it dissipated enough to not cause damage, no? That hot gas is going somewhere, and the blocks 5-6 away are heading right into it too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Arcturus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,611
    The apparent deformation ratio bug didn't change, so small grid heavy armor is immune to small grid thrusters, while small grid thrusters can damage large grid heavy armor.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  3. w0lf3y Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    151
    It was my belief, and I admit I could be wrong, that only small grid small ions did not damage heavy armor. So a small grid large ion damaging a heavy block is still "working as intended".
     
  4. Arcturus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,611
    This is an excerpt of the current MyThrust code:
    Code:
      if (current != this.SlimBlock && current != null && (base.CubeGrid.GridSizeEnum == MyCubeSize.Large || (double)current.BlockDefinition.DeformationRatio > 0.25))
    
    If the block that could be damaged isn't the thruster itself, and it exists, and either the thruster is large grid or the block that could be damaged is over 0.25 deformation ratio (large heavy armor is 0.4) then damage can happen.

    So for damage to NOT happen the thruster has to be small grid (any type/size) and the block in the exhaust has to be 0.25 or less deformation ratio (which is drills, blast doors, and small heavy armor). Update 01.042 had "fixed small thruster damaging heavy armor" . Update 01.023 had "fixed small thrust damaging large heavy armor". At some point later this changed, and I suspect that change was not intentional.
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
  5. Pharap Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    175
    It was pretty overwhelmingly negative.
    Days and days of people arguing about the thruster issue.
    To the point people were starting to get 'ad hominem' with each other, which wasn't very nice.

    Inform the mod's maintainer and ask them to look into it, Keen can't be responsible for making sure every single mod on the workshop works after each update.
    If the mod's maintainer determines it's a bug then they can make a bug report and probably provide Keen with a better idea of what the problem is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. I23I7 ME Tester Staff

    Messages:
    3,776
    Thanks looking into it.

    To my knowledge before the "horrendous" update thrusters damages one block behind them. If the block was deformed it would stop because thruster damage was not passing through deformed blocks. Which is an exploit. I still see people taking this quite personally which is a shame. The game is still subject to change and the fact that thrusters did not properly damage the grids behind them was an issue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  7. Cardboard-spaceship Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    maybe make the bounding box two rectangle one large one and a smaller one inside, the large one would be low damage and the one inside would be higher damage. with a % damage counter as in going in the flame is a 45% dmg and the small one the center one is a 75% chance of damaging. and be on a 45 degree angle to the grid. would be very performance friendly and since its a randomize damage per tick it dosent have to be presice
     
  8. Darkheyr Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    17
    It would be helpful if we had official statements how far thruster damage should reach, what it should damage, and what it should not - in one place, and not all over.

    It's hard to keep track, tbh. I do understand why people get upset about it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Forjo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    130
    If the devs say that the damage matches the plume, then yes, it should. Extrapolation and assumption shouldn't come into it.
     
  10. admanter Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    151
    "We" are in "space". Why are people expecting to obscure thruster outputs in any way and have that be a good condition/thing?

    If players finished pretending they're making a space ship, maybe they'd stop blocking thruster outputs and this wouldnt be such a divisive issue?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    227
    In that case, Keen should have made it impossible to place blocks behind thrusters for an infinite distance, or at least, a large enough distance to make such a construction method unviable for all but the largest ships; bare in mind, you can safely stand behind a rocket engine or jet engine, so long as you are far enough away that the heat has dissipated to a level where it is no longer dangerous- for jet engines, that distance is surprisingly short, if Jackass taught me anything...

    As it is, they keep changing it- 3 blocks, 4 blocks, 2 blocks- hence why it has become a divisive issue where as up until about a year ago no one even considered it an issue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. admanter Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    151
    Was it officially changed from 7 blocks to some smaller number? I'm under the impression it was defined as the 7th block is safe, and some bugs had brought the number down.

    As to your comment on the real world, we rarely place things behind the engine becuase its counter productive, even if the damage is insignificant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    373
    As I've mentioned in the main update threads, it's about time Keen actually publishes a table showing what the intended thruster damage is for various types and sizes of engine. How about it, @I23I7 , @rexxar ? :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  14. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    422
    That would make an excellent epitaph. Or band name.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    In fairness the Ion Thruster isn't really outputting a "flame" but a beam of high velocity ions as the name suggests. Seems somewhat reasonable that in a vacuum those ions are still travelling at high velocity beyond the visible glow effect and eroding things they impact.

    So it doesn't really bother me how far the distance is. In this case its a gameplay abstraction that is reasonably adjustable. My point of contention on the previous update was the profile of the beam/flame and the damage volume not matching, which they now do so I'm content.

    However I would like to see a disambiguation table on how far out damage should be being done so that we know for sure the current distances are working as intended.
     
  16. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,187
    I have a mod that shows me a great many details about a block when I choose one. Size, strength, airtight or not. It gives thruster strength in Newtons, All this information is apparently there but you need a mod to see it all in game. It doesn't tell you how far back you can safely place a block behind a thruster, but it could.

    The mod is called Build Info and it was created by Digi. It requires the Text HUD API mod. They are tiny files that have no affect on performance. Believe me, I would know.

    This is one of those things that should be vanilla. I'd post it as a suggestion but since stuff like liquid water is still getting the most votes even though it will never be possible, I figured I'd just mention it here.

    Water. Seriously. It's a space game and people want to build under water. There's already a game for that. Why is it being considered?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    413
    A lot of designers really dislike the existing thruster cone designs, or at least having them protrude from their ship. Note the #1 most subscribed mod, for instance. And notice how many of the most popular ship designs make a point of doing this. When I watch videos critiquing ship designs, the critics *always* comment on the placement of thrusters and custom shrouding. Also notice it was the thruster *cones* that were being obscured, not the thruster *output*.

    The other issue that comes up is that the range of thruster damage is important for positioning thrusters. After all, you don't just move away from things, you also move towards things, and you don't want to damage whatever it is you're moving towards. That's a significant design constraint, and changing that constraint requires changing a lot of designs.

    Personally, I'm fine with having my thrusters stick out; nevertheless, I find working out the placement of thrusters is usually the biggest design challenge for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Meridius_IX Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    Don't worry, the modding community has ya covered!

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1190277329
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
  19. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    413
    The "considered" status, as far as I can make out, just means someone at Keen read it. Nearly every suggestion is marked "considered", shortly after posting.

    As for why people would ask for that; if they didn't know that Keen's already ruled it out as impracticable, why wouldn't they ask for water on planets? It's common enough to notice that spaceships resemble submarines, and hypothetical lunar bases resemble hypothetical underwater bases. And people love to look at water.

    The real question, I think, is why Keen doesn't just reply to such a suggestion with an explanation that they've already ruled it out as impracticable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. mojomann71 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    578
    There is already a game for building on planets too.. so should planets be here? :)
    (Just being a smart alec, no trolling was meant.)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  21. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    Build info is on my short list of must load mods. It even has a function that visually shows you where air is leaking from a depressurized compartment, a feature that when requested on the forums I doubted was even possible to implement.

    I use it less in survival, but for creative building its just not the same playing without it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  22. nathanxbox2 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    I pulled up a thruster testing platform I made last update, and found partial blocks can be placed into the thruster areas. Here are some results of my testing on the large grid platform (I know nothing yet about the small grid).

    Large Grid:

    Small Ion Thruster: Easily covered, no hole at all. There is more leniency with triangles and blocks intruding into the radius. With a door it can be made completely protected, and, if the plume isn't too big, disguise the thruster to attackers.(maybe even letting them try to cut through the door and then get blasted by the thruster)

    Damage Radius: 3x1x1 blocks
    Allowed length blocks: Passage, All blocks thinner than a half block(including catwalk varieties), Both Doors (can be closed, but must doorway must be aligned with nozzle), not half block or triangle that passes through the center of the block, not vertical window when covering thruster
    Allowed end blocks: Triangular corner, Wide triangular corner (with small triangle pointed at thruster), All blocks thinner than a half block, not half block, not larger triangular pieces

    Large Ion Thruster: Quite coverable, hole can be reduced to 1x1, offset from the grid by 1/2 of course. Tapering of the damage radius is very noticeable at the end, and is a good demonstration of what Keen was going for, with the radius being the right length that you could work around it if you had the resources.

    Damage Radius: 5x1x2 blocks
    Allowed length blocks: Half block, All blocks thinner than a half block(including catwalk varieties)(when aligned properly, damage diameter is a full 1 block, allowing no flat blocks to touch that corner of the circle), not Passage, not Doors
    Allowed end blocks: Half block, Triangular corner, Wide triangular corner (with small triangle pointed at thruster), All blocks thinner than a half block, not larger triangular pieces, not Passage, not Doors

    Small Hydrogen Thruster: Very easily covered, no hole at all. Shorter plume than the ion, so even easier to hide behind a door. Allowed blocks are same as small ion thruster, the only difference being there is only one length block.

    Damage Radius: 2x1x1 blocks
    Allowed length blocks: Passage, All blocks thinner than a half block(including catwalk varieties), Both Doors (can be closed, but must doorway must be aligned with nozzle), not half block or triangle that passes through the center of the block, not vertical window when covering thruster
    Allowed end blocks: Triangular corner, Wide triangular corner (with small triangle pointed at thruster), All blocks thinner than a half block, not half block, not larger triangular pieces

    Large Hydrogen Thruster: Somewhat coverable, smallest hole size is a cross of 1x2 bars(2x2 square with 1/2x1/2 squares cut out of the corners). Definitely an improvement over the monstrous 3x3 area of the previous update. You'd really have to go out of your way to completely cover it up, which I agree with.

    Damage Radius: 7x3x3 blocks (or 7x3x1 + 7x1x3, because the corner blocks aren't harmed at all)
    Allowed center blocks: None, appropriately. This continues all 7 blocks.
    Allowed length blocks: Almost anything smaller than a full block (doesn't touch the middle of the center cube/circle), including large slope base, conveyor tubes, horizontal small doors, not Passage
    Allowed end blocks: All triangular and slope blocks when tapering to the center (excluding the inverted corner base), Half block and anything smaller (when up against the wall)

    So, in conclusion, damage radii are smaller and seem more appropriate to the plume displayed. All thrusters smaller than a large hydrogen one can be reduced to 1x1 openings from the base, making them much more easily protected. The small thrusters' flames being able to pass through closed doors is probably unintended, but for now you can use that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
  23. Devon_v Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,602
    A while back they capped the total number of billboard particles that could exist at once. They're used for thruster flames, light glares, and some of the damage effects. On a large enough ship you could have so many thursters and lights that the particles ran out and just stopped rendering. It also effected Draygo's text API mod if the text was rendered in the game world. It would seem that while still capped, we now have more to work with.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  24. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,304
    Why would someone disagree with a bug report :woot:

    --

    Moving post

    --

    I haven't played for a few months and thought I'd have a go today and camera has changed?... it wont let me get the view close to small ship which is locked to a large ship... I keep scrolling and scrolling in but the camera won't get close... this is annoying.

    Game still lurches when loading in a random ship and the drop pods in the background, this is annoying.

    First person view still dissolves into view when switching from third person view back into first, this breaks immersion, this seems to be true for both cockpits and flight seats.

    --- Automerge ---

    @I23I7 Tagging you because reasons....

    I'm not trying to find bugs, just playing the game as any normal person would reveals bugs... every single time I go ohh I'm going to play a bit of Space Engineers > starts game > 1 minute later ohh there's another bug......

    --

    Issue: The fill levels should not be protruding like this, they should be embedded further into the model so it does not pass through blocks placed on top of said model.
    --

    Hydrogen nozzle still has no inner detail, where does the flame from the thruster come from?, by comparison the inside of the ion thruster is really nice.
    --

    Why am I even seeing this bug again...
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1
  25. Pharap Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    175
    A) This isn't the area for filing bug reports
    B) They were probably disagreeing with your comments about "visual bugs trigger me" and "Well that's my try at playing the game today, think I'll go try finishing Dishonored 2", they weren't very repsectful/polite
     
  26. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    310
    I know I'm pretty much just happy to see Drui back on the patch notes :p - anyway, good fixes from what I've (limitedly) seen, but there's something that bugs me and I can't quite put my finger on "why". Me and my friends totally crash landed on a modded planet with 0.89G and a breathable atmosphere only to lose our refinery and most of our hull; now I realize you have no control over mods but the default settings reflect this too: Parachutes just don't cut it for large craft; that plus the mountainous terrain pretty much means anything you throw at a planet is still going to break :/
     
  27. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,304
    A) I usually tag a certain tester with bugs in update posts.
    B) I didn't finish Dishonored 2 yet, I started playing Wolfenstein 2 instead and it's pretty cool... the scene with the dog was a bit disturbing though, I really love the armored suit it looks so cool and he was indeed correct there are a lot of things that you can do with a hatchet and a nazi~

    C) Hail lord clang (。・ω・。)ノ♡
     
  28. Roxette Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    941
    Possibly because it contained too many images that were way too large ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,304
    Maybe that is the reason *shrugs*

     
  30. Devon_v Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,602
    That still bugs me as well. It's a really odd oversight considering all the other thrusters have visible "thrust" parts.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.