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Update 1.184.7 - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Nov 2, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,187
    The answer is, they have. Repeatedly. With long, detailed explanations. However, they (Keen) did the same thing concerning planets, then turned around and gave us planets. The conclusion, then, is they lied about planets and they're lying about water and if we just keep asking it will happen. It doesn't help that the suggestion is marked "considered" even though consideration ceased long before the site was enabled. People new to the site see that it has been "considered" and think there's hope, so they waste all their votes on it, which makes it look like an idea so popular they have to do it. Better but less popular ideas get few votes, if they are in fact even seen at all.

    Spacecraft and submarines might share some cosmetic similarities but they are polar opposites in design. People want SE to be the game where they can take a spacecraft under water, ignoring the developer's wish to have the game be realistic.

    Realism is what drives their decisions, not how your builds end up looking. Keen wants their engines to work realistically, including the damage. As a result you can build around the new limits or use mods. It's not fair to Keen to ask them to give up realism so that shipshaping will become easier or so that old designs won't need to be reworked. Point is new players won't be able to put blocks where they can't go, and new players are the only ones giving Keen money. Us old players understand (or should understand) that things will change as long as the game is not fully released. Only after the game officially hits the market will we be able to build with the confidence that a block placed will be safe, and that a ship once built will always work.
     
  2. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    413
    I've seen Rexxar joke about it on Twitch, but there's no response on the official feedback site. Presumably, there was some long discussion of it somewhere, but I've never seen it; I've just heard other SE users summarize it as, "it's too much computational work with voxels", which is clear enough. But, not everyone's going to have heard that, or have accepted it's true if they didn't hear it from Keen.

    The term "considered" is misleading, but that's only part of the problem. Look at Keen's description of how the feedback site is supposed to work:

    Feedback
    So, as I said before, "Considered" means little more than that someone at Keen's read it. It's a misleading term, but at least they explained what it's supposed to mean.

    This is where we get to the real problems:
    The feedback site is designed around rapid turnover of ideas. The more votes a suggestion gets, the faster Keen's supposed to move on it -- to implement it or to reject it. And this is where things go wrong:
    • They're not rapidly implementing suggestions, with a few exceptions (those exceptions mostly being bug fixes). Nor could they. Most suggestions would take significant time and effort to implement. This is a key conceptual flaw with the voting system; it can't work as described.
    • They're saying very little in response to the suggestions. For instance, there are some items marked "planned", where it's not clear at all what they actually mean. Many of the most popular suggestions have no comment from Keen at all. I assume that's because they've got a long-standing policy of not discussing their future plans, but that's at odds with the idea of having a series of publicly announced stages for popular suggestions to pass through.
    • They're basically not rejecting anything. They've only "declined" two suggestions, probably on the grounds they were redundant or badly written.
    The feedback site is a traffic jam of suggestions, which has been stagnant for months, since a week or two of when Keen created it, with much initial fanfare. New suggestions are added, but almost none reach a terminal state, by completion or rejection.

    I've said before, I can understand that they'd be hesitant to reject suggestions, without accepting some at about the same time. But that could be alleviated by telling us what they *are* doing.

    I'm not interested in arguing for water, per se. I'm just saying, you can't blame people for voting for it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,304
    Maybe quite a few new things suggested in the feedback forum will be implemented with the next major update? I kind of hope so at least.... I am really hoping for more things to do in singleplayer.
     
  4. Arcturus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,611
    0.1 and 0.2 for small grid small and large respectively for ions & atmo, default 0.5 for small grid hydrogens and all large grid thrusters. The number appears to be "per frame", so 6, 12, or 30 damage per second on average? EDIT: so the largest thrusters are under-damaging?

    Thruster lengths are calculated from the dimensions of the "thruster_flame" dummy in the 3D model, <FlameDamageLengthScale>, <FlameLengthScale>, the percent usage or override, atmospheric influence, and a random number between 0.6 and 1.0

    Thruster radius is calculated from the dimensions of the "thruster_flame" dummy in the 3D model and <FlameDamageLengthScale>

    The numbers are not nice even increments since the "thruster_flame" dummies vary in size between models and depending on the artists. I can only guess at their sizes from a debug view, so I can't make a nice correct thruster length table.

    EDIT: rule of thumb for safe design: if the thruster is N blocks long, allow 2*N blocks in a line behind it, except large hydrogen thrusters (small grid and large grid) allow 3*N blocks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    373
    Ummm... okay, thank you. I think you just proved the need for Keen just to document this in a straightforward way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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