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Update 1.185.3 - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Dec 7, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    I have been seeing this since the inception of MP. People are waiting for Keen to create a "currency system". This is because in other games there's no other way to get "stuff". The game has to give you money so that you can buy what you need to play the game. However, SE is more like real life in that you make your own "stuff". Your average SP game usually starts with the premise that you are marooned or stranded somewhere and you have to scrounge around until you can make something that can get you somewhere. Once most people have done that it's pretty much "game over". Currency won't help here.

    MP, on the other hand, gets right to the actual meaning of "currency". With MP you obviously have more than just yourself to deal with. The other people in the game will either help you, leave you alone, or try to take your resources. In other words, you probably have what others want and others probably want what you have. What you and the others have could be land (claim) or ore or the ability to produce ingots and/or components. You will either trade for these things or fight over them. If you choose to trade you might find assigning a value to things perplexing. How much platinum is worth how much cobalt? You will need a standard. This is how currency starts.

    Currency could come in the form of a precious metal such as gold. In real life we settled on that standard for centuries. Dollar bills used to be called "demand notes." You could walk into a bank with a 20 dollar bill and "demand" an ounce of gold in exchange. Generally you didn't want to do that because the 20 dollar bill was way lighter than the ounce of gold, and it fit in your wallet. The gold, however, was a commodity that was good anywhere in the world. So, currency is based on trust. Trust that if you had the currency you could demand the gold, and using currency was more efficient than using the metal itself. As long as the other person believed they could get gold for the currency, they would accept the currency as fair trade for goods and services.

    Thus, in SE there is no need for Keen to create currency. In a MP environment players can create currency and set its value and, as in real life, players can ignore the stated value and decide for themselves what the currency is worth. This is called Economics. SE multiplayer is a great place to find out how economies actually work. It's a tremendous learning experience that the average player seems to want to avoid at all costs, and would rather the developer impose a meaningless system that you are forced to use or not play, just like every other frickin game in the industry, cause that's how it's done. It's a flawed way to represent how and even why currency exists and it leads to a flawed understanding of what currency is. People that think currency works like it does in games are people that will be manipulated by people that actually understand currency and how it works. People with the flawed understanding will always wonder why some other people always seems to have an easier life.

    SE is not like the other games. Keen wants it to be unlike the other games. We don't have to play it like every other game. SE is a game that let's you climb out on that limb and see what happens when you have freedom. If the limb breaks, well, it's just a game. If the limb holds you might reach something you can't reach in other games, and you might end up smarter.

    Keen, don't be coerced into creating an economy for us. It would be an unnecessary use of valuable resources. You have already given us what we need: ore and areas to claim. We can do the rest on our own. If you force one on us we will just fight with you over the implementation. You don't need that headache.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Late Late x 1
  2. Pegas519 Apprentice Engineer

    in my time, long ago, there used to have a option under graphics that disabled or enabled shadows, either your system was strong enough to render them or not. Oh.. what??? MIRACLE, there is an option!!!!!!
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Late Late x 1
  3. druppi Apprentice Engineer

    that was always the case don't think it is a bug
    • Disagree Disagree x 7
  4. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    In general, I agree. Economies are based on demand, which is a function of rarity. I could see, for example, with a tweaking of survival, for something like uranium to effectively become currency, if it were harder to find (or reactors consumed it at a faster rate). Perhaps, as part of the long-sought survival revamp, a "scarcity" option mechanic of some sort could be added.

    Related, I'd like to see the option to set (in-game, without editing files) asteroid density to less than .25, the lowest limit currently.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Oskar1101 Apprentice Engineer

    Then everyone would be forced to play without any shadows... Even you. GTX1080ti will never run hundreds of dynamic sources of light and there is no game that allow this either. Most demanding AAA fps games uses at most 16 dynamic sources of light at once and no without a tricks.
  6. Lé Grand Sárrazin Apprentice Engineer

    Honestly, long-term, I would love for a currency/trading system to be implemented. Like credits in a bank account or whatever, or even in-game if you wanna make it a lootable item, which would be neat. Because not only would they be light but also volumetricly tiny, like 5 billion credits could weigh 100kg., which is better than having 5 billion credits worth of iron, which could weigh 1 billion kg. I really don't wanna dock with someone else's ship and be like, "I'll trade you 300k Co, for 30k U. How about 2k Motors for 15k Ag?" That's just bartering, and nearly all civilized cultures have abandoned large-scale bartering because of how ambiguous and burdensome the practice is. And a true trading system with a market with variable prices from place to place would give everyone the greatest incentive to travel far. Buy low, sell high. And, as an added bonus, you could use said credits to purchase blocks and parts, hell maybe one day full ships, directly from npc traders, instead of building them yourself every.. single.. time..
    I dunno these are just my initial thoughts anyway.. I'm sure others could fill in any holes I left behind to make it work.
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  7. Byzod Trainee Engineer

    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    AI Pirates that try to steal the players gold in singleplayer survival... hehe.. that could be kind of funny actually, trying to defend against pirates trying to steal the players resources in certain areas of space designated as having... well.. pirates.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. DemeterHUN Trainee Engineer

    And why do the thrusters still damage parts they did not before the major update!? There was a fix about that, but... there wasn't!? Thrusters need to be fixed!
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  10. Lé Grand Sárrazin Apprentice Engineer

    Well thanks Darian, Oscar, and Vereena for explaining thoroughly why you disagree with my thoughts. I was very convinced by your arguments!! -_-
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Hemp Plan[e]t Apprentice Engineer

    Hell thanks ^^ thought this will be here forever now
  12. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    They did 'fix' it, but only in the corners which was the main issue for most people- blocks at 12,3,6 & 9 o'clock still take damage, but you can at least place blocks in the corners to seal Hydrogen thrusters. Unless you meant something else...
  13. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

    It is a bug. There was a time, not too long ago, where turrets would stop shooting at something once it was dead.
  14. Hemp Plan[e]t Apprentice Engineer

    Still getting warning sounds when pressing Shift+Tab
  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Actually, demand is a variable in economic equations, just as supply is. Demand is already in the game. Once you claim something as yours or you make something, someone else wants it. If you are good at making things, someone would rather have you make their things. Having Keen make a particular item rare (like uranium) or invent some sort of "rare item" (black diamonds) does not make them valuable. Gold and diamonds are not valuable because they're rare, because they are not rare. They are valuable because of their properties, and because they're shiny/sparkly. Uranium is not valuable because of how hard it is to find. It's valuable because you need it to run a reactor. If you have a different power source, uranium is worthless.

    Games that have credits usually give you a way to earn them, usually by having you complete a mission. In SE's case Keen would have to make the "missions" and the infrastructure to distribute and track the earnings. Given that the game will usually be run on private servers or hosted on player's personal computers, it would be naive to think such a system would be ignored by hackers. Even if the only way to play SE online was on official Keen servers, hacking the credit system would be the #1 priority and thus it would always be under attack. That is the Headache That Keen Doesn't Need. Plus, it would make SE like every other game. The lameness of that would be... depressing.

    Besides, since only governments can create currency Keen would have to create a government that no one would respect. It's less cumbersome if players do these things on their own.

    I just noticed that I am a "Senior" engineer. I don't remember telling them my age.
  16. gorgofdoom Trainee Engineer

    Fixed windows error sound when pressing tab or Esc. WAHOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
  17. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Lé Grand Sárrazin Apprentice Engineer

    Well, firstly, let me start off by saying thank you for laying out your reasons for disagreeing with me, I respect you for that.

    Now then, on your first statement you claim that credits would be earned mostly on missions, that Keen would have to create. I assume, actually I know, you feel this would take 'precious' time they don't have. While fair that they seem to have little to no time to do much of anything game changing at this point, I did suggest it be a down the road long term idea. But the 'infrastructure' would basically consist of a .txt file, etc. file extension, that you would read and write from, saved on the server somewhere. I know it's more complex than that really, but I digress.

    Next, I've never heard of anyone hacking a mp game of SE. If it's happened, I wouldn't be surprised, but, imo, this is a game for nerds.. and, by and large, so are hackers. I would be just so disheartened that they would attack their own, ya know. But, then again, if credits could be hacked in mp, then so could anything else be spawned.. you want 1M Au.. click.click.click.. there ya go. I dunno, if there are already some rogue nerds trolling SE players, I don't think the addition of credits into the equation would change the end result. I think just stopping hacking in the first place would be where I would look for solutions. I also don't believe that makes me naïve.

    Then, you claim that these additions "would make SE like every other game." Which, firstly, is fallacious.. this is SE, nothing is like SE, nothing comes even close. Having a legitimate trading system, to me, would not make SE "like every other game." That's just ridiculous, mate.

    Lastly, your final claim is factually incorrect, in that not only governments can create currencies.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency
    In this, supposedly, wild-west era in space exploration, I'm quite certain the corporations rule the cosmos. I also imagine the corporations would enjoy the ease of a unified currency to trade with, instead of resorting to the barbaric practice of bartering. Although, it is up to Keen what/if backstory they feel they may/may not want to contribute to SE. So, that's up in the air.

    Honestly, after all of these years, I'd love for this Sandbox tech-demo to finally become a game. Because it's getting there, slowly, but surely. I see game elements I'm really excited that get hinted from time-to-time. I really like the missions they have come up with so far for example. They're pretty cool. And, if only there was more depth to random encounters, their development has seemingly stalled for ages, unlike pirates that continually get neat updates.

    As you may infer, I could go on for ages, honestly. Yet again, I do disagree with you fundamentally on several areas, but I enjoy and respect your engagement in furthering this discussion. Communication is key to development. A practice that has seemingly been lost on those who would rather just 'Disagree.'

    Hope you enjoyed the essay! Cheers!!
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Vereena Trainee Engineer

    I will add my 5p to the currency discussion.

    The idea that “only government can create currency" is rather ridiculous and only proves the lack of basic knowledge in the subject.
    And many people have trouble understanding the basic concept.

    Wiki article is good, but TL: DR for most
    Let me explain this in the simplest way possible:

    Well known and respected Mr McDonald had a cow, a whole herd in fact, a large one.

    But he travels light to a local market because why flock the whole herd, when all he needs is a bag with some papers, on those papers he wrote “1 Cow”, “2 Cow”, “5 Cow” – he just created his own currency and denominations “1 Leg”, “1 shoulder”.
    People know him well and TRUST that when he swaps those Notes for potatoes and carrots they can show at his farm and exchange those notes for what is written on them.
    There you have, a currency created, no government involved… only TRUST.

    But wait! There is more…

    Mr Carpenter couldn't bring his whole workshop worth of goods to the market.
    Mr Carpenter is also well known and respected and he had the same idea as Mr McDonald, so he brought with him notes “1 Chair” “2 Chair” “5 Chair”, “1 Table” etc…
    So, Mr McDonald needs some chairs and a table, they exchanged 2x "2 Chair" and 1x "1 Table" for 1x "2 Cow".

    And this is how a currency exchange happened.

    All down to the TRUST between the two men and the whole community, that these notes can be exchanged for goods they represent.
    Swap Mr McDonald and Carpenter for banks, cows and chairs for dollars and pounds, trade gold or GDP instead of cows and chairs and you have a modern economy.

    Currency is not some magical entity conjured from thin air, there is a “barbaric” bartering behind all of it. Even modern crypto-currencies are only worth as much as people are willing to give for them (or people are made to think that someone else is willing to give something for them, but that is another subject).

    I leave the specifics of economy out as this brings nothing to SE and the question:
    Do we need something like that in SE?

    NO, I think not.

    There is no point in me paying you whatever, for ore if I can mine it myself, I will not buy a mining rig in a game which is all about engineering and building this rig myself!
    Currency in all games of this type only leads to lazy “someone will do it and I pay him for it” approach which always in every MMP game in existence leads to cheating and trolling.
    We will have this as it is anyway, why create a something that brings very little than more problems to the game’s core concept?
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  20. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    I wasn't complaining. Just making a self-formed statement in form of attempted comedy in combo with earlier reference from Marek himself.

    Yet explaining jokes isn't funny at all.
  21. Lé Grand Sárrazin Apprentice Engineer

    Hey there, good to hear from ya. I agreed with you all the way up to this quote (It actually got a little hard to tell to whom you were directing your comments, but I see you borrowed my line here, so I figured there at least you were referencing myself at that point.. anyway) Of course currencies are not conjured from thin air... buuutttt technically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
    Yea that's a long subject to get into, but the gist of it is, all modern banking institutions, and their currencies, are propped-up by fractional-reserve banking, which creates 10x times, usually, the actual wealth an entity possesses.. "conjured," quite literally, "from thin air." But, that isn't relevant to the main conversation. So, I digress.
    Bartering is the act of one trading a specific good/s to another for specific good/s. As you state, a currency, in it's earliest form, was any convenient method of transporting wealth, with trust, generally, being it's guarantee.
    The problems with a monetary system reliant on bartering are complex and abundant, stated most thoroughly here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter of which states chiefly, "For barter to occur between two parties, both parties need to have what the other wants." Meaning if I'm out looking to barter for X, I really hope the only guy I can find with X wants the Y that I have. Although, if all he wants is Z, then I'm SOL!! A unified trusted currency is Always wanted, because it is always in-demand, always. Money is just a function of efficient value transformation, that is all.
    And, if I must provide a gameplay excuse to justify a currency system. Depending on how long this game, and it's servers, survive into the future. Some individuals, those with the most time and seniority, will inevitably dominate any and all servers, especially if they are hardcore rp servers. At some point, I am hoping that fresh blood will enter the stream and be able to catch-up in a reasonable time. The act of mining, refining, assembling, placing, welding, and fueling are extremely laborious and time-consuming. Unnecessarily so for those with little time, and just want to have fun and feel a sense of progression, without getting the usual unsatisfactory feeling that I wasted a lot of my day just mining. And, I'm tired after several hours, and I really haven't even gotten a whole lot built-up, so I'm frustrated. And the learning-curve is so steep, that I get overwhelmed, and so I just quit and play something else that will be fun. That has happened to so many new people I know that try to jump in for the first time, but it's too much for them to invest into, so they form a bad opinion of SE, and you can't convince them to play again. It's a real shame.
    My feelings are, if their was some currency, definitely if their was a lootable kind, it would make it so you could find them/pirate them off corporate transports, what have you, and use them (if the system existed in the game) to purchase things, ingots, parts, blocks, hell a ship even to cut-down on the grind. Really, it doesn't stop anyone from taking the longroad if they want to. And, I think these sorts of things would be hammered out server to server.. some would play in a ultra-rp realistic server with a money system.. and others will rock out in the old school OG bartering server. That's just how I feel. I honestly think it would open up the door to so many people.. yes even people You don't wanna play with, but their are other people out there than just you and I all the same. And you may, disrespectfully, call that lazy, but Time=Money, and if you ain't got no time... you ain't got no money my friend. And Keen isn't gonna f*ck up and mt SE up to buy credits with irl $$, so all you have to progress is to grind Hard! Right Keen!? I'm looking at you! The buck stops at Suitskins!! Ya hear!?
    Lastly, I don't think anyone should be elitist about this subject and say, "Too bad, I'm sorry you work 6 days a week, and you're so tired from that and raising a kid, you can't play 10-14 hours of SE mp a day, like you used to. So grinding isn't as easy as it once used to be. But, that's not my problem! Git gud!! #1337!27"

    When you build a wall,
    You block not your enemy.
    You obstruct yourself.
    • Like Like x 1
  22. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    I'm going to resist the temptation to argue economic theory, because it's mostly irrelevant. There's no scarcity, no specialization of labor, no indirect exchange, and no point to credit systems. There aren't enough people playing on a server at once for any of this to serve any purpose. Bracket the high tech references, and the position of players in a "survival" game most resembles that of nomadic hunter-gatherers. And there are no NPCs and probably never will be, and there's no room for representation of a more complex society with more abstract economic systems.

    Space Engineers isn't going to be transformed into EVE Online.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  23. Registry_Editor Trainee Engineer

    Agreed, please please please can we have a survival update, giving more purpose to multiplayer servers?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. TimPL 2 Trainee Engineer

    Thank you for the weekly updates but
    network code ... sucks :(
    • Late Late x 1
  25. DanP Trainee Engineer

    Space engineers MP certainly has been hacked. I ran a DS a year or two ago, and we had a problem with people hacking to locate active players with large structures, teleport to their location, and spawn giant walls of armor with a pixely pirate face painted on them. These were--of course--spawned with a high velocity, aimed directly at structures that took dozens of hours to create. I had to write my own detection algorithm to find and ban these players. Your faith is misplaced, I'm afraid.
  26. Foogs Apprentice Engineer

    All MP holes fixed ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
  27. Allammo Apprentice Engineer

    As always great update, but...

    This time I've got small problem. After alttabbing to windows I can't get back to game with full screen mode. Fullscreen window works, window same, fullscreen become fullscreen window. My computer doesn't like display 3D aps in window mode, and it's not about fps drop, rather something with mouse motion capturing. Anyway, is it just me or anyone else noticed similar problem?
  28. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    I didn't think this would go this far but, eh, update wasn't really worth discussing anyways so...

    Well, the problem isn't that it takes a long time to develop. It probably wouldn't. The problem is that it would take some time to develop a system we could agree on. THAT's what would take time and cause Keen all sorts of headaches. If the game had not been early access they could have done whatever and take it or leave it. Everyone has their own idea as to how it should work and everyone will fight to get "their" way implemented. If Keen decides to do this they should announce it from a bunker.

    I would submit that you want a developer-imposed trading system because so many other games have it. SE is the only game I am aware of that gives the player the option/opportunity to come up with their own system. If Keen imposes one then that opportunity evaporates and we do it as in every other game. My vote is to continue the status quo and screw limits.

    I love Wikipedia. It's like the Bible. You can always find something to quote as gospel.

    I suppose I should clarify my statement as to who can and can't create currency. I don't know where you folks live, but I live in the USA and if you print up something that is supposed to have universal value you will go to jail. Call it whatever you want, but the US Government calls it counterfeiting. You can, as a business, issue coupons, stamps, points, etc. that are redeemable at your business. Just don't try to spend them at someone else's business.

    Governments create trusted currency. US currency used to have the phrase, "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" written right on the note just so everyone was clear. That means if you are selling something in the US and I have US dollar bills you cannot say "that stuff is no good here." The courts will make you take it. Outside the US there are treaties between governments to accept each other's currency, thus not accepting US dollars in a treaty nation will also get you in trouble. This is the kind of currency you are talking about. A developer-created currency that everyone must accept. But, what happens if I have something you want but I won't accept your Keenbucks? Will you call a Keencop? Will you be able to take me to Keencourt? Can Keen force me to take your Keenbucks? This is the infrastructure Keen would have to implement. Other games solve this by only letting you buy and sell to NPCs. If you obtain something of value in other games you have to sell it to the game to get credit, then you use that credit to buy stuff from the game. You don't have transactions with other players. There is also the following observation:

    The level of convenience (in economics they call it "indifference") is too low to justify a quick way to get what you want without labor. If you can get your hands on a drill, a refinery and an assembler (all pretty darn easy in SE) there's literally nothing available in the game that you can't have. In a very short time most players will find themselves in a position to barter if they don't feel they have time to manufacture what they want. In real life if I want a cell phone I have to buy one because I don't have the knowledge and facilities to build my own. In SE I am an engineer, born and bred. I can make whatever I want if I can find the raw materials.

    Therefore, if Y is Keenbucks...

    These sorts of transactions have occurred in SE since the inception of MP without the need for currency. Several currency (some call them "economy") mods exist. None to my knowledge enjoys widespread success. Mostly due to implementation. People usually end up making their own stuff, scavenging stuff from NPC ships, or just taking other people's stuff, thereby actually circumventing the need for currency.

    All true, which then leaves us with the "barbaric" barter system which happens to be the oldest and most intuitive system on this planet and probably most others. Every nation does it or did it. Every culture has an approach to it. It's human nature. The reason we have currency, or legal tender, is because bartering is not "fair". For example, I might give you a bushel of my wheat in exchange for a pig if I know you, and charge you two pigs if I don't know you (three pigs if I don't like you). So you see someone get a bushel of wheat for a pig, you have a pig, and you expect you should be able to get a bushel of wheat for your pig, but you end up giving three pigs. Then the next person gets a bushel for a chicken. Sucks, but what're you going to do? It's uncontrolled and always favors the seller, but it works because it's simple, and usually fast. It's definitely NOT fair.

    I am not against an economic system with currency in the game. I just don't believe it's something Keen needs to impose. SE is a game where you can make things, which includes economic systems and the means to enforce them. In my opinion it's much more fun to figure out how to do that than live with something Keen comes up with. It's not that Keen isn't capable. No doubt, despite all my warnings, someone in staff is rubbing their chin and thinking, "You know, if we were to..." and the next thing you know we get planets.

    or scratched glass.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. Vereena Trainee Engineer

    Hey, thanks for the reply, I disagree quite strongly, and here is why:

    Thank you for beautifully proving my point about the lack of understanding of basics of the currency.
    Also the apparent lack of understanding of what counterfreit is, topped with not reading with understanding.
    All in one place!

    You failed to understand, that I speak of basics of the currency, not current legal tenders, not the same thing mind you.

    Counterfreit, to call in my scenario again, would be if mr McDonald tried to copy Carpenter’s Chair notes.
    Or, if someone other than authorised institution tried to issue dollars.

    I live in UK where banks issue legal tenders, not government, Pound was originally created some two thousand years ago by, probably roman traders and evolved ever since, you will have different prints of pound depending on where in UK you are. Seriously, look it up, legal tenders in Scotland, England, etc... Controlled by government, but issued by national banks. Please, dont write an essay about it here.

    Also we do not accept dollars here in UK and no court can force us to do so, get some pounds and we can trade here.

    For the purpose of space engineers, McDonnald example is perfect, as I just created a currency for which we can trade stuff. Just like KSH would.
    It is not a legal tender, but it is an actual currency which you will use in the US to trade for virtual goods or services.
    And surprise! You will not get arrested!

    Also, you failed to understand when I said, I leave the economy out, as the game is about building stuff, not trading stuff. And brings nothing to the quality of the game.

    Sorry for a long post, I dont have a potato to give.
  30. Dan2D3D Moderator

    Hi Guys!

    It's getting a bit OffTopic and would be kind to share your opinion on the game not on others.

    Respect other members opinion about the game. (see forum rules)
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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