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Update 1.185.3 - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Dec 7, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    The simplest way to implement currency in a multiplayer environment in Space Engineers would be to use commodity money: basically, pick a resource, and use it as currency. Uranium ingots would probably be a good choice: they're useful to anyone, it's relatively simple to calculate how much time it takes to produce an ingot and use that to estimate relative values of other objects, and the time-per-ingot is relatively high compared to other ingots, so it would be relatively valuable per unit and thus easily portable. With this approach, there's no need for Keen to code anything. Someone would just need to come up with a table of normalized build times for various blocks, and include a column that converts it to uranium ingots (or anything else, for that matter). If I recall correctly, the mod Build Info - extra block information includes build times.
  2. Vereena Trainee Engineer

    To be fair, I would seriously like to see a tiered technology, research based on existing creations and built items.
    This would, I know, be similar to C&C or Eve Online, but would benefit the game, which has Engineering in it's core.
    You can build Ion engines, if you have platinium refining developed, etc.
    This is in my opinion a good example as here is already a bit of this implemented, namely: You cannot find platinium on a planet, hence you have to build a hydrogen engine to get to space, and only then mine Pt from asteroid, to construct Ion Engine, I would love to see this scenario developed much further.
    Let's have minimum Uranium on planet surface, but plenty on asteroids, so hydrogen engine would be great for planets,
    Reactors for space,
    None of those fuels on Mars planet, so solar panels will play leading role there,
    Alien planets will have thick atmosphere, so why not geothermal generators, and batteries for vehicles operating there.
    This are just examples I thought of, but these differences would prompt for different design solutions for different environments, just like oxygen does now.
    I am not a big fan of farming, but something like hydroponic gardens, or open gardens would be cool to engineer, different solutions depending on whether you are on a moon surface, or in space.
    There are so many better things to invest development time than currencies.
    Imagination is running wild now :)
    Currently I play on modded planet, diameter 2000Km, which means, I have about 450Km atmosphere to get through to reach space.
    It was awesome "adventure" to look for all the resources to build this 3 stage rocket:
    Each stage has its own purpose, depending on how high in the sky I am.
    Stage 1. atmospheric thrusters - To about 150Km up,
    Stage 2. Hydrogen thrusters - to about 350Km up,
    Stage 3. Ion drives, to fly in space (got lucky, I found some Pt in meteor which nearly killed me).
    Each stage is ejected after its use, thus decreasing weight (and falls to the ground using parachutes)
    All have beacons to help locating them and There is a recovery Truck (white thing, bottom left)
    The new physics means I could build this without it randomly falling apart.
    I seriously want more meningful stuff in the game to make even more and better things like that.
  3. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Well, I believe both of these have been tried as mods. That's the thing about SE. You can have an idea, run it up the flagpole and see who salutes it. I can't tell you how well they worked, but if you filter the workshop for Most Popular you won't find any economy mods anywhere near the top. Or the middle. That is not to say that the mods weren't any good. I suspect players didn't always agree with the system or server admins found them to be more work than they anticipated. My conclusion is that currency does not make SE more compelling, and if a system were in place most players would circumvent it in favor of barter or outright theft.

    When we talk about a player-imposed system it will either rise or fall on its own merit, the popular ones will last longer than the others, and it's entirely possible that a good one suitable for SE will emerge. I doubt it, but SE players have shown a remarkable ability to coax amazing things out of what was just going to be a simple game. Anyone that thinks there is a "simple" way to get currency in the game should chat up some of those Modders that tried it. Thing is, if you use a mod and you conclude that it just doesn't fit you can just discard it and move on. A developer imposed system would be a lifetime commitment no matter how good or awful it would be, and while I respect Keen's staff for being able to produce a fantastic space-based game, they're a relatively small group of people who's talents are probably not dominated by economics. Whereas, there are thousands of people that play daily and millions that own the game. Odds are the answer will come from there. I only assert that is were the answer should come from, because it'll be a better answer. I'm all for the best solution. I'm not saying currency is a bad idea. Keen-imposed currency is a bad idea.

    For more insight into the perils of player demand for developer imposed solutions, search the forums for "discussions" about lasers and shields, or any discussion in any game about weapon "balance".

    If Keen is looking for something to add, how about chairs, tables, beds, toilets, female characters, petroleum, plastic, carbon fiber, organic materials, wildlife that doesn't want to kill me (and I mean just kills me. doesn't even eat me), pirates that act like pirates as in they try to take my stuff rather than just destroy it, maybe when you get hurt bad in the game you don't just die but instead go unconscious, giving other players the opportunity to render first aid and take you to some medical facility where you can recover...

    These are the kinds of things Keen ought to be able to do. Currency? Leave that to us ;)
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. gordon861 Apprentice Engineer

    There was an Earthlike with no uranium posted on the Workshop fairly recently by Splitsie who is currently doing a video series on it. I stole his planet (with permission) and replaced the standard Earthlike in a Solar System with it, and posted it back up on the Workshop.

    It does make for an interesting game start where the uranium is limited to what is in the lander and what you can find in probes and downed ships.

    I think Keen are missing a trick here with the game start, why are there not options with sliders to change things like increase/decrease the availability of materials, change the elevation of the planet so hills become mountains or the atmosphere/gravity well could be made larger etc? With the ability to mess with the starting seed numbers you could have a whole game where all players need to rely on hydrogen because there is no platinum.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Bumber Senior Engineer

    The planets must be predefined. Seeds only affect location of asteroids, not their appearance*. There is no planet generation, and probably never will be.

    *Edit: Significantly.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. Oskar1101 Apprentice Engineer

    No one is talking about seed. Planets in space engineers are generated dynamicaly in real time using predefined height/biome and ore maps. You can change size, height of mountains atmosphere gravity and many more using save files or mod it by original planet generator files.
  7. Bumber Senior Engineer

    I'm not sure what the planetary seed actually does. Only thing I've heard is possibly trees and stuff. It doesn't affect ore frequency, that I know of.

    It's the predefined part that's the problem.

    Defining OreMappings, etc., is not well suited to the in-game UI, even assuming they can be edited in MP server while a game is running. Keen has also said they're done with planets.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  8. gordon861 Apprentice Engineer

    I thought I read in a post a long while back that the planets were actually generated by a seed but the feature was removed in an attempt to speed up the generation of a new game world.
  9. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    The problem with commodity currency is that resources are so abundant depending on your world settings that things become worthless quickly. If you have Refinery 1x and use Platinum as the commodity (being the rarest), it inflates slower than Refinery 5x speed.

    To keep value you have to add time, and make the currency consumable. (Uranium fits this in a way, but it would have to be a currency you could not get.)

    Enter ...oh god... the Space Engineers bitcoin - SECOIN[TM].

    Using a custom block that converts energy into SECOIN over time. Doesn't require resources/materials (except initial build), except for energy and time.

    If I really wanted to do a multiplayer economy, I'd remove rare resources from the game (Uranium, Platinum mostly). You build your SECOIN blocks that convert energy and time into coins. You can then use those coins at a regional trading post to buy blueprints (block blueprints), resources etc (all to remove currency from circulation). Could also trade coins (or raid) to other players.

    The generator would be the size of a Jump Drive or large ship large reactor. (Not small at all.)

    Now what I would want to happen to 'economy' gameplay:

    • This makes battery/solar/hydrogen 'early-game', and ion/nuclear/jump drive etc 'late-game'.
    • With any sandbox environment, even this will be defeated with time, so it would need a victory condition that the first team to reach X SECOINs deposited to the central bank wins the sector. Corporate Buyout/Takeover.
    • Every player is limited to 1 generator. If ran endlessly without doing anything, the generators could make enough bitcoin to win the game in say 3-4 months real time. Factions may have a max size (or board size) of 4-5 players.
    • Trade with players for resources, buy the blueprints and rare resources that you need or raid the enemy.
    • The SECOIN generator could use energy in a way that you would want to build a solar powered facility for it (as burning uranium is the same as burning money). Thus would be large and an attractive target. If you use uranium to power it, you're just burning money. Do you put it in a big solar farm where its easier to find? Or do you operate solar farms with transferable batteries to make it less conspicuous?
    • SECOIN is transferred via a special block, SECOIN STORAGE. If that block is destroyed, the coin destroyed with it. It can only be transferred between Storage, Generator and the Trading Post. Can't be held on a player's body. Use Storage blocks to create caches or transport coin. You also cannot grind down storage (or generators) to extract coin as it will destroy the coin it contains. You have to be careful to handle it without damaging using merge blocks etc to take it away. Can't just smash and grab the contents.
    • All SECOIN blocks are neutral structures. Any player can withdraw and deposit to any SECOIN block.
    • Promotes actively seeking out enemy generators to stop other faction's progress. (aka, scouting can be important.) If you really wanted to limit it, attach a rule where it has to be attached to a voxel to function. Every voxel object is worth investigating.
    • You can deposit SECOIN into the regional trading post at anytime. Any deposited SECOIN is safe and removed from circulation. Any players visiting the trading post can check everyone's balances on a 'leaderboard'.
    • Eventually the game becomes less about mining, stockpiling and building and more about SECOIN supremacy. Players know how much SECOIN they have and about where the competition could be based on elapsed time. As it gets closer to the end, you want to go out and cause economic damage/theft to your competitors to stop them from winning.
    • All those ore resources that people stockpile are just tools towards winning with an engineer's own ingenuity and become less of a focus.
    How much do you invest in your own infrastructure? To protect your generator? To find other generators? Do you deposit it in the trading post to be safe and tell everyone how close you are to winning or do you turtle all your savings in one location or create coin caches throughout the sector to mitigate some risk of losing it all while keeping everyone in the dark? How do you build to limit how much SECOIN you're spending on platinum and uranium as it slows your progress?

    All decisions that can affect the way the game is played. Economy for the sake of an economy is crappy.
    Economy for the sake of a goal, now that is something I can get behind.
  10. Hortnet Trainee Engineer

    after the update, the game periodically stops to simply disconnect in the Steam settings. I have to show FPS in games during this stop the indicator shows an average of 50 frames per second. The mood has removed, at least everything has disconnected everything that at least somehow affected the FPS in the save settings including the load of 5 km. I note that before everything was in order I played in medium settings while the average FPS of 40 such stops was not noticed. On the laptop I have a kernel for a laptop i3 4030u nvidea gt 840m 2gb (I'm playing with a screen resolution of 1366x768 in full-screen mode settings are minimal) Ram 12gb. I repeat once again that everything was in order before the update. I also thought that because of mods it can be turned off but nothing has changed but it's become a bit rarer, how often the game stops, depends on the speed in the game (I increased it by mods) just turned off this mod nothing has changed. A similar problem has arisen and my friend. Lmao, stop complaining so easily. This isn't a finished product so stop acting like it is. Christ, most of you talk like you're fresh out of nursery and it's embarrassing.
  11. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    My point about commodity money was that it would be very easy to implement, and wouldn't require anyone to code anything, just for someone to come up with a table of values. If anything, the point is that it would be so obviously easy to implement, that the fact that people aren't generally doing that already, suggests there's no point to adding currency.
  12. Pegas519 Apprentice Engineer

    I know, survival has become annoying with all those "bang"s, so much that I have removed all pistons, rotors and wheels. Can't build much worthiness without them. :(
    --- Automerge ---
    I was talking more on the fact that shadows reduce performance, hence, the option allows you to decrease the definition of the shadows, or turn it off.
    --- Automerge ---
    I was talking more on the fact that shadows reduce performance, hence, the option allows you to decrease the definition of
    That's why early access/beta is not for everyone. We are the testers, can't be exigent when they are building the game. it will get fixed, in time. Just keep on the bug reports. with your 3000+ hours, you're a champ.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

    You must be joking, right?

    Turrets used to work fine, apart from hitting their own grid due to bounding box issues; now they are broken in two new ways- how exactly can people keep on using the 'oh mur gerd its beta/early access' excuse? The game is 4 years old, things that work fine shouldn't be getting broken and re-broken after being fine for years or being fixed 3 times previously. The excuses are not valid- the clear lack of proper management oversight and QA testing are to blame, along with poor resource management- ergo, a team of 70+ people, only ~7 of which actively work on the game, while the rest work on the silly AI projects that will come of nothing ( Marek thinks he's the next Elon Musk or something ).

    Feel free to disagree though, I can't force you to be right- more informed and experienced players understand the nature of the game and the issues it faces, and how said issues shouldn't exist at this point in development.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. ThisIsADogHello Apprentice Engineer

    Bitcoin in SE sounds like a great fit, actually. Both are massively overvalued, with the people most vocal about how great they are failing to understand all the massive problems they have and refusing to acknowledge there could ever be any issues with it, they both scale very poorly and tend to become increasingly useless the more you try to actually rely on them, and both are readily prone to crashing at any given moment.
    • Funny Funny x 4
  15. fistagon Trainee Engineer

    don't know how people took what I said as they did but, all I was saying is that a money system is the far future would be nice for servers where people have mined everything, people have planets that they don't let people mine so they don't destroy their planets/asteroid bases and super trade mother ships that people can go to like a hub in servers that have super powers that people go to so they can trade to get more blueprints,etc in a later game sense, that's why I said later in the far future, not now because most people play alone and just mine what they need but in a long term server that has most things mined and a means to trade money would need to exist
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    There are a number of long standing, really quite annoying bugs that never seem to actually get fixed, or if they do...they don't stay fixed.

    For a game in alpha...you can kind of understand the situation.

    Move to Beta, and you expect a feature freeze followed by progressive polishing and improvement in the code.... We have seen a fair bit of optimisation, but there are still issues that never seem to get any better. Judging from the community 'belief' that crops up in so many threads of new features, food systems, currency systems, AI, cargo ships behaviour and all the rest the term Beta isn't widely appreciated.

    Personally...I would expect the bug list to get shorter on release of a new patch....or just don't release a patch.
  17. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    The way Space Engineers is currently constructed, while the volume of space and the possible number of asteroids is technically limited, resources are practically unlimited. You'd exceed the server's capability of rendering the simulation long before you actually ran out of resources within the simulation. From another thread:
    So you'd have to redesign Space Engineers to create the problem that you imagine currency would solve.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  18. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    @FoolishOwl ^_^ Lol. My math is actually kind of incorrect because technically it would be a BOX with each side having twice the listed radius and I didn't account for leap years, etc :p But cool seeing my little for fun maths being covered again.
    And for anyone else, that one thousand is inserted because I went by the assumption that 7 billion people couldn't empty a server with an incredibly low density of asteroids in a thousand years :p
    So a normal server would have thousands of asteroids in 100 000 cubic kilometers :p
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