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Update 1.185.9 - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Jan 18, 2018.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. CuNi Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    52
    Just to support your argument,

    I check the forum on patchday out of habit and hope for a small miracle, but basically me and 7!! other friends havent touched the game in at least a year because, in our opinion, it was patched into something so unplayable and lackluster, that we simply gave up. I still hope that, one day, there will be a enormous patch that will fix all the issues this game has, technical and design flaws, but the hope is but a mere glimmer by now.
     
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  2. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    Actually, quite the opposite is true, and there is plenty of established research (like real, peer-reviewed, social-scientific research) to support it. People are generally more likely to leave negative reviews than positive ones. There are many variables, including nationality, but in general, it has been demonstrated in the research. As someone who has been both a practitioner and educator in media and mediated communication since the 1990s, this also reflects my experiences. And again, I am not arguing that the game doesn't need improvement. I just think there isn't a lot of evidence that it's time to buy a casket and order flowers for SE.

    Interestingly, and something that may be relevant to this discussion, is that some recent studies show managers may underestimate the extent of customers' dissatisfaction because of inherent biases against the writing styles displayed in such reviews (which researchers rightly argue is something managers need to adjust for).

    This may very well be the case with the forums; however, in the section of my post that you quoted, I was talking about online reviews on Steam, not forum-based feedback. These are two different things. Steam calculates the extent of positive/negative based on star reviews-- a quantitative (if still highly subjective) schema. Moreover, customer reviews and forum posts are two very different channels of communication, which makes rational comparisons of the data difficult. That's not so say forum data is not valid or valuable, but it must be considered in the appropriate context. Considerations might include the percentage of the whole population of game owners who might comment on through customer review form versus a traditional discussion forum, the likelihood that forum users may represent a narrower segment of the overall population (more likely to be familiar with programming and game design, for example), etc.

    I could probably, if so inclined, dig up a positive comment on these forums for every negative one you point out. But, I will admit, I don't know if the "tone" or quantity of negative comments has increased over time. It would be an interesting behavioral study: Are those who have negative views of the game but really want it to succeed more likely to participate in the forums "over the long haul," as it were, versus those who are satisfied and thus have less incentive to repeatedly voice their opinions?

    This I agree with, in that, whatever Keen intended the Feedback,KeenSWH.com site to be, it doesn't seem to have worked, at least not from a customer-relations standpoint. Others on the forum have spoken to this at length, more expertly than I can.
     
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  3. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    spoken to him many times on various bug issues via PM ... and he was a very helpful guy. He's a Keen employee .... he would work on whatever they assigned him to.
     
  4. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    423
    That's 5.2% of owners playing within the last two weeks, which actually struck me as pretty good. Browsing through the game listings, it looks like that is pretty good -- most games I see listed have less than 1% playing within two weeks. It's more comparable to the result for Skyrim, one of the most popular games ever.

    For most things on Steam, the negative reviews come after a few hours of play. For Space Engineers, most of the negative reviews come from people with many more hours, and they express mostly disappointment that SE doesn't live up to its potential, and frustration with the stagnation of its development. Which is pretty much how I feel at this point. Space Engineers has reached the top of my list in Steam for number of hours; I can't complain that I didn't get my money's worth, but I do feel as if it's not really going to improve much, if at all, from what it is now.
     
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  5. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    327
    That turned out good for me, when looking for tutorials I found W4astedSpace and Captain Shacks channels and have followed ever since. That is also one of the saving graces of SE: the modders and youtubers have kept me playing long after I would have normally shelved it.
     
  6. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    No, merely thinking. Old habits die hard. :D

    Good! We agree. That's exactly what I meant when I pointed out that I was talking about Steam and you were talking Forums. Difficult to compare. Saying "just look around the forum" only tells us what active forum-users think. We need to keep that top of mind.

    Okay, good start. So how does that compare to other, similar games? I am asking honestly; I don't play any other sandbox games like this.

    Some other observations:
    • The number of owners is lifetime of the game, but the number of active players is over the last two weeks? I disagree at calling that "player retention." That presumes someone must play a game constantly (or with great frequency, at least) in order to be considered retained. "Player engagement" is a better concept-- how many people opted to play the game since Dec. 27, 2017. How likely is it that those people are the same people who played during the two weeks prior?
    • The site reports that of 2.3 million owners, only 90.71% of them have ever played the game ("Players total")... which means there are 200,000 copies of Space Engineers that have never been launched (I own one of those, plus a few other Steam games I never got around to trying). So the real number is about 2.09 million. That would mean a review rate of closer to 2.4%
    • Is a 2.0% or 2.4% review rate particularly low? Again, I wonder how this compares to similar games? Online sample size calculators (such as https://www.checkmarket.com/sample-size-calculator/) suggest you'd need a sample size of about 16,500 to achieve a 99% confidence level.
    Anyway, the numbers you cite could very well support what you're claiming about the magnitude of dissatisfaction with the game, but only if presented in some sort of context.
     
  7. JuStX2 Apprentice Engineer

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    310
    @Konscience - It's one thing to disagree with people and ask them to help - it's an entirely different (and inexcusable) thing to call their ideas worthless; I Would watch what you say lest you incur keen's wrath too. Not that any of this matters to me.
    --- Automerge ---
    @Thrak - do your research without relying on petty calculators that may or may not be skewed. Use your own eyes and tell me this player-base still believes in this game, I can see more posts in this thread than ever before claiming the doom of the game - to me that says it's days are numbered; not to mention the fact that absolutely NOTHING is eternal.
    --- Automerge ---
    Now I'm not even editing and the automerge is duping - I give.
     
  8. PantherDave Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    3
    I have got to say that Space Engineers is definitely one of the best games I've ever played. In so many ways, it's literally the kind of game that I've dreamed of for many years. Sure, it's a little rough around the edges at times. But I've really enjoyed it so far, and I do hope the team enjoys improving it for some time to come. I almost regret reading on this forum though, because there are so many negative comments regarding the progress of SE. Obviously, there are a lot of people who passionately love SE and want to see it improve... but some of those people are impatient and don't consider how their negative comments only serve to discourage the developer and other players. I'm sure there are awesome improvements on the way, and I know it's difficult work that takes time. If for whatever reason that's not the case, then life will go on. And unsatisfied players should also move on - without continually harassing the devs with doom & gloom please!
     
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  9. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    Nope. It doesn't work that way. Show us that people are playing other games, ones similar to SE, at a substantially higher rate. Support your argument with facts. Show us a comparison. It will sway people much more effectively than posting cartoons.
     
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  10. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    258
    Geez, what is going on these days... does everybody hate SE now?

    I get it. It's taking quite some time now (5 years i think), and multiple instances have been done in repairing the very same bug for bug-repair-shifts-other-things-bug reasons.
    Several companies are trying to compete with SE but remember, Keen is doing the actual deal here. No shortcuts as far as i can tell.
    It tries to make everything logically consistent despite all of the variable factors like... everything that you can do/make in the game.

    Example:
    When crashing 1 ship in multiplayer, it now has to instantaneously calculate/track all individual blocks and their state and how they fall etc etc.
    This is all going on while multiple instances of your productionblocks are working on multiple ores, variety of physics-situations running everywhere on all grids/subgrids, scripts running everywhere.
    All of this on multiple players simultaneously while, oh yeah, the ground is being terraformed on impacts because it's a completely interactive and functional planet.
    Despite your hardware configuration (with few exceptions).

    It's crazy the game even works at all and Keen is doing it.
    Space Engineers isn't just a game being made.
    The way i look at it, is a gigantic project in which they create several systems running parallel smoothly.
    Kind of like how to get to the Moon for the first time ever.
    There are going to be bumps along the way, and there may be a bump right now, but they just need to keep going.
    That is what anything ever has being done ever.
     
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  11. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    703
    Objection. Not closed.

    Care to compare with other games on the sale shelves for 3-4 years, early access or not, and I bet you'd be surprised how many people still cling to Space Engineers (or Medieval Engineers respectively), while other titles, including those of a HUGE production budget from a major studio, have dropped dead due to lack of interest.
    Any title suffers from kiddos who cannot concentrate on a task for prolonged time, they shift from product to title trying things but lack the capability to dig into something. Isn't there even a medical expression for that behavior, as a deficit? This while SE offers its merits only to those who do not stay scratching on the surface but merge deeply with the universe being offered to them.
    --
    Sandbox building games like ours here, the more variation the better, have the chance of staying on the scene over a long time because as long as YOUR possibilities in creativity have not reached their end, so the ones of the game will not reach THEIRS... That explains the magic.
    --
    I think this is still an insider tip. There are millions out there who still never heard of KEEN softwarehouse products, or happened to have overlooked them, with lots of garbage attention seekers blurring their view and ears meantime. The potential isn't maxed out yet, I bet. This while I am not sure if I wish for a mega advertising budget and millions being flushed into the cashbox of KEEN with countless players not having known about SE & ME beforehand. Because prominence also brings its disadvantages. Like the loss of eagerness and zeal as -praises to Clang for that - qualities being typical for smaller studios. Big studios and much money produce a build-in tendency towards mediocrity because there is a mass of employees there regarding the task as "just a job" like any other and looking on their watch when to go home at 5 p.m. .
     
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  12. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    258
    Exactly right!
    They're not part of the problem... they ARE the problem.
    Ironically bashing on this game because subconsciously knowing that THIS game is the thing to play and being rough around the edges, instead of the "other games", isn't going to help.
    I mean, why would they not bash on those other games?
     
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  13. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    258
    And how can you say the game is stalled again?
    Sure, from our perspective maybe.

    In the meantime the devs are working as hard as ever to crunch those difficult bugs that require more time than YOU like which makes lots of crybabies unhappy. Well though.

    The bugfixes that we DO get to see in the weekly updates, are the ones that are either small enough, or lingering on the sidelines as a "here you go, now shut up while we're working on the real sh!t because you have no freaking idea".

    And please don't post memes to praise your point in all proudness.
    You makes the rest of us look dumb.
     
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  14. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    327
    Keen introduced a scenario/campaign editor. There has been one tutorial campaign from Keen that they managed to break themselves when they cocked up wheels (part of that campaign uses wheeled vehicles), there is one modder created campaign called Escape from Mars and nothing else. Many of the "bigger" modders have stopped making and updating their mods. These are the players that were the most enthusiastic about the game that have left before the game has even been released.

    Every week the update/fix blurb refers to "the next big update" yet there is not even a tease of any information about what might be in that update, even the most vague "it is a wheel overhaul" "it is a survival overhaul" etc. To me that makes this next big update as much vapour as the usual "we fixed some crashes" filler line every week.

    Also, just because you do not agree with some of the points made it does not make the player making those points a "whiner". That sort of insulting someone you disagree with belongs on the WoW forums rather than here.
     
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  15. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    703
    When I was posting here on SE forum two years ago for the first time, I was called a 'fan-boy' (this is meant to be an insult nowadays from those negativism-embracing folks enjoying their dark memes, you know).
    --
    Today I am still a fan-boy of Space Engineers.
    Something must be wrong with me.
    Or something must be utterly fascinating right with Space Engineers.
    --
    So, why should I close this case. I am having fun with SE. :) It's going to be a milestone in space sandbox games anyway, if you feel like a supreme court judge or not.
     
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  16. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
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  17. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,391
    Well, this is where the "debate" has ended up.
    People are unhappy. This is true. You certainly seem to be. It's not hard to find unhappy comments about any game (or any thing) in a forum. A lot of people seem to think that's what you do in a forum. Complain. That's why positive posters get dehumanized by being called fanboys, or worse. Yes, indeed, there are some unhappy people out there. However, if there was a perfect game out there, I guarantee you there will be unhappy people in the forums and bad reviews all around. Some people are just that way, I guess.

    People bought the game and aren't playing it? This is unusual? People tend to play the games their friends can play with them. SE has some multiplayer issues, hence people play something else. Don't need a degree to figure that one out. Kind of a stretch, though, to claim that everyone that stopped playing the game hates it.

    Game development has all but stalled? What does that even mean? Keen's employees clock in every morning and sit around wondering what to do? They're all sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to figure out how to stop rotors from clanging? No one knows what to do, so every week they just squeeze out a fix or two to stop the game from crashing if you grind a turret? Is this what we're "debating"


    Folks, there are three major long standing issues in SE right now: pistons, rotors and wheels. All of these things pre-date planets and multiplayer. This was going to be a simple building game, and now it's not. Fans challenged Keen to push the limits and Keen accepted. Development has stalled? More like it has been diverted, which in a lot of ways means back to the drawing board. Not to mention the growing list of blocks and features so many people believe can, no must, be implemented NOW, and screw all the contradictory code needed to make it all work. Just figure it out already and DO it. Who doesn't have a list of priorities for Keen? Who doesn't think their list should have top priority? Who wouldn't conclude that lack of progress on their personal list constitutes some sort of breakdown in development, thus making it necessary to yell at the developers in their forums? Or announce that they are no longer going to play the game?

    It's easy to point at all these signs of discontent and conclude that the game is in trouble. I'm not denying the discontent. I'm just saying it doesn't matter. Discontent ebbs and flows with the major updates and the lack of them in between. Anyone that has been here since 2013/2014 knows the deal. If the update contains a new block or feature, interest blossoms. If an update just has fixes, interest wanes. Go figure. It's one thing to point out the discontent. It's quite another thing to sound an alarm about it.

    Let's face it. We all bought SE because it's Early Access. Whatever else that means, it mostly means we got the game at less than full price. We all rationalized that if the game pans out we got a deal, and if it doesn't at least we didn't pay full price. A lot of people bought the game because their friends talked them in to it, and not necessarily because it's "their kind of game." They wouldn't play it at all if their friend didn't beg them. The fact that they don't play if they don't have to is not something Keen needs to work into their marketing strategy. Instead, Keen might wonder why there are people like me out there with 6500 hours or more in the game and, more importantly, wonder what would make us stop.

    (I've already told them that if they make lasers and shields vanilla then I'm done.)

    So, kudos for being right about people being upset about things not getting fixed. Thanks for pointing out that there are a lot of people that own the game and don't play it. I mean, who knew? Keen, probably. They probably know more about the upset people than you do. They have people that can tell them who is upset, who plays, who doesn't, how old they are, where the live, what their major beef is and, most importantly, whether or not they have enough disposable income or access to enough money to pay for a game and who's hoping they get the game as a gift. What's most likely is that people that play SE and games like it because they want to are more specific about their complaints than "development seems to have stalled", will articulate some comprehension of the logistics required to resolve the issues, and are willing (some may say resigned) to wait until solutions are found, however long that may be.

    And, really. Keen still hasn't done this and Keen still hasn't fixed that... must mean the game is dying if not dead. Seriously? Technically, the game isn't really "alive" yet. There are plenty of games that started in 2013 that are definitely and sincerely dead right now, and they never got anywhere near the amount of development SE has. The level of interest among people that don't actually own the game continues to be pretty strong. Remember, a lot of people just won't buy an EA game. They want the warranty that comes from a fully released game. If you're trying to scare them off, you'll have to do better than this.

    It's easy to rest a case that never had to be made.
     
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  18. Dan2D3D Moderator

    Messages:
    964
    Hi Guys!

    I'm receiving alerts about ''Name calling'' ...

    Please respect other members opinion and/or simply ignore the offensive post(s), thread, or review.
     
  19. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    258
    I guess the debate is already done (for as far i am able to call it as such).
    Some non-Keen developers seem to "know" how much progression is being made on Space Engineers by looking at popularity stats that are coming from any joe sixpack and filling in the blanks.
     
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  20. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,391
    They have to prove their game is not dying? You know it's impossible to prove a negative. Besides, you wouldn't accept any proof they provided as credible.

    No one has to prove anything here. We all firmly believe whatever. Your "proof" is insufficient. So is mine. There is no debate. Never was one. Just some ranting.
     
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  21. Pegas519 Apprentice Engineer

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    195
    Holymolly. suicidenei, relax lol, you account for almost all 4 pages of posts.
     
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  22. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    327
    12 posts out of 92? hardly accounting for almost 4 pages of posts lol

    Seems odd that I counted? well I had to do something for entertainment while on the loading screen :D
     
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  23. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    703
    It's actually funny to demand developers should "prove their game isn't dying" while these have such a bubbling forum in existence, youtube channels, facebook communities, alive and kicking, all of them seem attractive enough for people seeking attention on their ego trips, rather than having to contribute anything of value to discuss the game itself.
    --
    I never liked negativism and defaitism. We are struggling here for something great to become greater, not doing self-fullfilling prophecies while boosting our ego over it. Because when too many people rant and denigrate, it has to bring morale down in the studio, if they don't hear anything else day by day. An affirmative fanbase works well for morale, and an aggressive fake-fanbase works the opposite.
     
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  24. mojomann71 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    628
    My two cents is that people think the game is dying because of a Major Update not dropping when they expect that it should. Be thankful of the smaller updates until the Major does drop.

    Also remember the saying "careful of what you wish for."

    Also trying to rush them into pushing out something is just silly. Sure they probably could do something big every week, imagine all the rants then when it takes them forever to get to the issues that were created, because self centered folks demanded they do something big all the time.

    This is the updates page, not a debate page. You wanna carry on a debate start a new thread in the correct forum.

    Thanks.
     
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  25. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,391
    Fix the bugs faster and add more features. This will stop the game from dying.




    Well, I have to say, this is a revelation. Not just for me but for Keen as well. All these years and no one thought of that. Answer was right there in front of us.


    You're wasting your time here, man. You should be running things at Keen. No... you should be developing your OWN video game. You obviously know what needs to happen in order to produce a standout.


    Shame on you, Keen. SHAME ON YOU for not figuring this out. I guess I'm at fault for not suggesting it first but, who knew it was that simple? Well, it's OK now. You have been given the Answer on a silver platter trimmed with gold and diamond studded. I'll bet every startup video game company would love to have access to such sage advice. Step aside, Elon Musk.




    It must be hard, living amongst normal people.


    To be fair, forums exist for the purpose of discussion. We should be discussing update 1.185.901. I guess you could say this discussion is about the extreme frustration some people have because this update did not fix everything that's wrong with SE at the moment, or the unfounded assertion that things are not getting fixed fast enough. Some people believe these things take time.

    Some people don't. Or it shouldn't. Or it doesn't need to. I don't know, but I can assure you we are about to hear why it hasn't happened faster ;)
     
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  26. mojomann71 Junior Engineer

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    628
    @Stardriver907 Yes I know what forums are for. :)
    I also know the correct threads that the discussions need to be.
    In this case we have someone who is going on and on about the game dying.
    This thread is not for that discussion. ;)
     
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  27. mojomann71 Junior Engineer

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    628
    @suicideneil I didn't say that you couldn't have them here, just pointed out this is not the thread for such a discussion.
    You say you don't like people putting words in your mouth, well follow your advise and don't put them in mine.


    No one listens to me anyway so I am used to that. :)
     
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  28. mojomann71 Junior Engineer

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    628
    @suicideneil I did not see your name in there specifically, where do you see it?
    Unless you were feeling guilty about something, you shouldn't assume something is about you.

    But if you would like me to call you out I will, stop acting like a child. We get it you think all is lost with the game, you think your point is the only valid point and you think everyone else is dumb.. I could quote it here for you from your post if you would like, but you already know what you typed.

    I am not here to argue about it one way or another, I hate that I added to what has already gotten out of hand, and yes it deserves it's own thread in my opinion. *GASP YES OTHERS HAVE AN OPINION! Oh my who would have thought.
     
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  29. Nomad For Life Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    7
    Suicideneil I don't think nobody needs to quote anything from you. With every post you have made after someone disagreed with you, you have shown you act more of an ass than sarcastic. I said I was leaving the forums because someone was less of a jerk than you are. Unless you are trying to get your post count up or something is the only reason I can guess that you are going on and on. Go be productive and try to be helpful instead of beating a dead horse.

    I am still new to the game I enjoy it, I see people with passion for the game so to me I do not see it on it's final legs. Even if it was on its last legs, life will go on.
     
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  30. Dan2D3D Moderator

    Messages:
    964
    Hi Guys!

    I will ask you to stop this before I give warnings.

    Add your opinion on the game and Not on others please.
     
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