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Update 1.186.3 - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Feb 22, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    [​IMG]

    Left: how it used to look
    right: how it looks now

    which do you think looks better guys?

    Side note: just because something is made of metal, doesn't mean it HAS TO BE shiny and reflective:

    [​IMG]

    Like I said, matte finish is a thing ( brushed vs polished ). If they could tone down the changes by 50% or so, it would still look nicer, just not silly any more.
     
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  2. Oskar1101 Apprentice Engineer

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    Thank you for images. Current lighting looks way better than it was before.
     
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  3. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    Guys, are we talking textures, lighting or voxels (which have their textures as well).
    I thought the complaints were about the textures. I was reacting and thinking of strictly that part since that was updated quite recently.
    The lighting being far from perfect was acknowledged by Xocliw within one of his streams if i remembered correctly.
    saying that the lighting was pretty hard to get right (going through polygons of other blocks etc. which results within the "fake-angled" specular values you see on the blocks of image#2 of Zac Lee's latest post).
    Also Suicideneil, it's been mentioned a couple of times by people to present individual sliders for the separate texture properties so everyone can get what they want.
    Even i asked Keen for that in the last major overhaul update (page 8):
    Also: You want it 50% more matte, while Zac Lee wants the opposite although you rate him an "agree" to everything he says.
    Confusing stuff guys.
     
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  4. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    No, Zac is saying the same thing, not the opposite- everything is too glossy and the lighting/reflections are horrendous ( it's texture and lighting in combo creating this awful visual 'style' )- we are in agreement on that.

    Then I said if the texture of the metal was more matte ( the opposite of shiny ), it would be less reflective and the result would be more pleasing ( more subtle reflections and less glare ) when combined with lighting that is more natural ( the devs are reworking lighting at present to look more natural, so yay for that )- we are also in agreement on that.

    Not sure what you're confused about really- you say with want opposite things but we actually said we wanted the same thing- did you misread our posts maybe?

    I also remarked that sliders for Post Processing are required: https://feedback.keenswh.com/idea/sliders-for-post-processing-effects5a866e1e3c1cd
     
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  5. Zac Lee Trainee Engineer

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    we are talking textures- but I pointed out the limitations of the lighting system as a reason why not to have everything become oily, wet and polished. Even with matte paint sliders everything is oversaturated to high hell.
     
  6. IsEstredundant Trainee Engineer

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    3
    This may be my first time on the forum, but I assure you I have the hours in-game to back it up.
     
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  7. Royale98 Trainee Engineer

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    I'll just leave this here...



    and i just realized it isn't called paint in SE, it's just color right?
    --- Automerge ---
    Right. Cause it's a screen and screens with anti-glare hurt color often, and whotf sits in the sun to use a computer device...
     
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  8. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,647
    The small grid welder model (Welder.mwm) was last updated on 8 Feb 2018, which would be 01.186.1
    Based on previous dev comments the welding area is controlled by a hitbox in the model file
    The 01.186.1 notes include:
    and it looks like the position of the particle emission is also controlled by a bone or dummy point in the model.

    Artists causing gameplay changes, likely unintentionally?
     
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  9. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    703
    Now you start acting constructive. Why not from the beginning. I like that.
     
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  10. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah that picture with the 2 laptops was a pretty skewed example.
    I actually get why the team doesn't interact as much as many people say that they should.
    But i'll give it another try because this is just getting more silly than the "Ministry Of Silly Walks".

    Yes i'm aware of brushed vs polished, you're talking to 17 years 3D-animation and photography here.
    Texture alone isn't the issue although it was the 1 of those 2 things being updated.
    Lighting wasn't.
    Although textures have many property layers on them, they are completely influenced by lighting and their properties that have to support those of the textures such as: specular, ambient, gloss, shadowtypes: raytraced/shadow-map etc.
    If you would look closely to the metallic textures in-game, you would see that there is definitely a distinguishing going on between polished en less polished/brushed.
    So those textures are fine (for now, because it's not set in stone as far as we know because Beta).
    If there is any problem going on, it's the lighting and you should complain about that, which you do in your feedback article: "and the game doing the same old trick of pretending light sources stop existing when you aren't looking directly at them"
    The problem with this is that, Keen already made clear they're aware of that situation.... they will focus on it... when they're ready with other stuff first that needs/needed to be done first like: Textures. Because textures comes before lighting.
    Do you see the reason for prioritization within the process here?
    Then start being aware of them already being aware of those issues. You are not the only one noticing the things you are noticing.
    So they will fix that later on (or at least consider that complete project), and we shall just continue with the task at hand... how to get to Mars with a multi-stage rocket.


    Are you freaking kidding me?
    A. You believe that the amount of play-hours is somehow a reasonable standard of evidence?... evidence of what exactly?
    B. Beyond that, you don't even give us a number.
    C. And then, it wouldn't matter because A.

    ... oh wait, i forgot trolls exist... well played Sir :beer:
     
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  11. Zac Lee Trainee Engineer

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    It’s pointless to argue what looks good or bad. You guys seem to want this weird- tronscape, chromedrome, and I just want to ignore the bad lighting system that I don’t think can be fixed.
     
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  12. Timuroslav Apprentice Engineer

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    I just don't want my ships looking like plastic LEGOs or Playdough. Matte finishes and textures are cool for interior blocks, but for armor blocks and machinery it makes everything look fake. The feeling from flying and building something that looks like it's bolted together; compared to fresh pressed plastic toy.

    Pre February 2018 look
    [​IMG]

    Or Current Space Engineers 2018. Both images are Deap Space. Pretty much how I feel.
    No thanks I'll take my metallic uglies.
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    Did you actually read it through?
    Yeah that's the opposite of what i ever said. I literally said how the wear and tear fits so well, and this on the previous page:
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  14. Zac Lee Trainee Engineer

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    Execpt that it it doesn't look like that at all, but whatever lifts your skirt man- you do you.
     
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  15. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]

    hahahahhahaha....ahhh *wipes tear*
    I can't see jack shit but i know my wheels exploded launching me skyward.
    who would win?
    a massive 4x4 mobile crappy station
    one little x boi
     
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  16. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    How exactly do you think you colour/recolour blocks? Magic? No, with paint- just like you would in real life... **mind explodes**

    You seem to be ignoring the fact that glossy screens will reflect ANY source of light, not just sunlight- the example was skewed on purpose for demonstration purposes. That, and as per Zac's screen shots- the old style system was far less egregious in terms of glare and reflection. You seem to have not understood the purpose of the comparison I made- don't dwell on the laptops, think about the screen shots offered up- just a tip ;)
    --- Automerge ---
    Sorry, I'm out of cookies- with all your experience maybe you should apply for a job working at KSH as a software artist. I only have about ~25 years experience of painting and drawing with a brush and pencils at a hobby and commercial level, I'm old school like that :)

    Of course there is noticeable difference, but the examples posted by Zac speak for themselves- under most circumstances the blocks look like a slimy mess everywhere, only under certain instances do they look ok; it should be the other way around.

    You talk about prioritisation, yet Keen themselves seem to have issues with that- they change things that really, really don't need changing for some very spurious reason ( thruster damage, units of measurement for gyros and thrusters ), while stuff that's been broken since day one has never gotten any attention ( see: The motherload thread ). It seems that prioritisation is in the eye of the beholder...

    They'll get there one day, maybe, but I can't help thinking certain parts of the game will stay rather funky or be left at the mercy of Clang.
     
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  17. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    Wow that sucks. You're sure that wasn't a collision with mods, or mods against each other?
    Or maybe that was just 1 second of re-adjusting the "shutterspeed" of the camera. Can't think of anything else right now.

    I think you said something earlier about "snide remarks"... i just tried to say that you don't need to explain certain details in order explain other things.
    Also, i don't live in that neighborhood. Would've been nice though. Good place.

    Units of measurements of anything are hugely important for future code-building. And thruster damage was also really important performance-wise.
    Some really cumbersome algorithm was apparently used to calculate the block/voxel damage from way back then.
    Also, it could have big impact on any build with thrusters since you have to take the thruster damage into account with the rest of the blocks.

    Depending on Keen's internal planning, they may have to change some things.
    And they are not always obvious to people outside of it, because they don't have access to Keen's internal framework to compare their logic with.
    So what reason do you then have to call them on doing things that are unnecessary according to you? Maybe you should lead Keen, because if i read you correctly, you'll finish the game bug-free within this year.
     
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  18. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,206
    i know the speedmod isn't helping any in this situation..... :p
    but that time i actually did press X to see its true power.
    I jumped me into the air maybe 300 meters...I landed with about 30 m/s of speed with a beast of burden carrying that much.
    then the wheels seemed to stutter around for a millisecond before launching me skyward.
    .
    i think the best part what i braced for impact facing upwards so my cockpit could be hit last...and it was the only thing to survive....
     
  19. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    Not knowing what you do for a living requires me to assume most people are thick as two short planks and do indeed require things explaining; in my experience, it's a sound approach- I'll know better when conversing with you in future, so there's that. As for snide remarks- I repay my debts ;) We're even now.

    Fake news, unless I missed something- the only explanation I recall seeing was that a rectangle was easier to code damage for vs a cylinder- nothing more complicated than that.



    You're correct though, as players we aren't privy to the inner works of KSH and why they make certain changes- mayhap they might want to try... oh I dunno, communicating with the players to let them know that they will be making important changes, via patch notes or Marek's blogg? Crazy idea I know- they've made numerous important changes over the years and failed to even mention it ( in patch notes )- last update changed those units of measurements as I said but it wasn't mentioned anywhere, so now modders and creators are scrambling to fix their work, assuming they even realise that is.

    Hello, welcome to the KSH feedback forum, where players can leave or share their thoughts & ideas about the game. You seem to be doing that thing again- you know, where you act like you run the forum and people are only allowed to leave positive comments or thoughts about the game, and woe-betide anyone who has any gripe, grievance or frustrations they wish to share, because they need your explicit permission ( or permission from any other member of the clique that thinks it owns this forum ) to do so. News flash: as I've said several times before, everyone is entitled to their opinion- just be prepared to defend or validate it- something I've always done & been chastised for, amusingly enough.

    If you don't like what I have to say, just add my name to your Ignore list and you'll never have to be troubled by my opinions ever again, m'kay?
     
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  20. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah just say: It's my opinion...", that will make it better.
    Just hold your arms crossed, head held high and concluding something is fake news so Here you go.
    Please stop telling me what i mean by things. Like how i "act to run the forum" because i try to explain my thoughts as best as i can (as a programmer btw, forgot to mention that, no let me skip the cookies) but get nothing but shit for it.
    And geez, "woe-betide"!? Dude, are you a ME character brought to life? Are you that guy who starts to walk high on heels because he knows he's losing ground as well? Are you poison? Are you m'kay?
     
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  21. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    Okay:

    1. What part of 'everyone is entitled to their opinion' are you having issues with- it's even in the forum rules.

    2. You keep deliberately mis-quoting me though, I specifically said I may have missed further info about the update that changed thruster damage. As it is, they didn't make any ground-breaking changes like you implied:

    No where near as complex as you'd like to believe or insist.

    3. I'm not telling you what you mean, I'm repeating what you say- you and the little gang speak down to ANYONE who is critical of the game or KSH. YOU DON'T RUN THE FORUM, YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT OPINIONS PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED HAVE. Would you like me to gather dozens and dozens of examples of the above? I will if you insist- I suggest you let people have their say without insulting or criticizing them unjustly. Hell, even if they are talking crap all you have to do is ask them to qualify their remarks, rather than tell them flat-out that they have no right to their opinion.

    4. Oh I'm sorry, are my literacy standards too high for you? Should I speak like a plebeian so that you can understand me better? I can't help it if I speak like a grown up instead of a semi-literate child using text speak; you'll just have to deal with my fabulous vocabulary :D
     
  22. IsEstredundant Trainee Engineer

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    3
    `
    About 1477 hours and 47 workshop posts, and does it really matter what my first post on the Forum is? Do you really think I'll get on and praise them JUST because I'm new to the forum, though not the game?
     
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  23. pologoalie8908 Trainee Engineer

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    1.) Welder still buggered, it shouldn't even be a flame since it uses suit energy and not hydrogen to weld rolled back to 185, fixed
    2.) Right-click mine gives large engineer sized boulders, so does left click mine, rolled back to 185, fixed
    3.) Connected inventory setting not remembered when switching from production menu to inventory menu and back, rolled back to 185, fixed
     
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  24. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,391
    This is how you can tell who understands what they bought and who doesn't.

    The way the "paint" looks will change. It's already done so about four times since the game became available. No one at Keen has said "this is now the way things will look for ever and ever. We're never going to change it again, no matter what anyone thinks, including us. Now that the current changes are in, there is absolutely no opportunity to alter them, even though the game is in beta. Nope. Can't be done. Sorry."

    Every single time Keen makes a change, no matter how it's received generally someone will come here and act as if they changed a finished game and the change is permanent. Anyone that buys that will buy anything so they shouldn't be upset with their copy of SE.

    In fact, things have changed greatly within 1.186. With some modest adjustments to some settings my ships look as they did in 1.185 and the excessive bloom was eliminated for me without mods. At this point I no longer consider it an issue. I've been working on the same set of ships for three years now. I have plenty of screenshots for comparison. There have been some ups and downs but I have to say they have never looked better, and while the lighting is not perfect it is more than acceptable. I will be disappointed if the lighting in the final product is not better. I believe Keen understands that. Probably better than any one of us.

    It's fine to point out the things you are not happy with. The fist-pounding table-flipping rhetoric is not necessary.


    Especially in the Change Log.
     
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  25. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    No, we all understand the concept of early access- we just have trouble with changes that negatively affect the game & being told ( by people who have no place telling us ) we should be grateful to play the game... that we paid for.

    Are you a dev? how do you know for certain?- reading Marek's blog on the changes it seems pretty clear that this is his intention for how the game should look. Certainly, there is room for improvement but whether the devs listen to feedback on the visual issues is another question.

    Nope, putting words into people's mouths. People give feedback based on updates- no one is acting like this is a finished game that is being changed; by that reasoning, the game wouldn't actually be finished....

    Oh, do share a few of those side by side comparisons please, and the changes you made to restore the previous visual appearance ( or near enough )- I am genuinely curious.


    Neither is dismissing negative feedback, but you-do-you I guess ;)

    There is a reason why the change log allows comments- it's so we can comment. Whether you agree with those comments or not, it is not your place to tell people what they can and can't say, nor what type of reaction they are permitted to have. See: you're doing the same thing as Digitalstone- telling people what they are and aren't allowed to say. That's the devs job, and you are not a dev.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
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  26. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,391
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/stardriver907/screenshots/ is where all my screenshots are, and they stretch back to 2014. Neither the computer nor the video card changed, so any differences in the quality of the pictures are due to the game. For performance reasons I keep settings as low as possible. When I say I restored previous visual appearance that does not mean my previous performance was stunning. However, I was able to address most of the most recent issues such as bloom by just turning off Post Processing and setting graphics options to High instead of Medium (my ageing GTX650 doesn't seem to mind. Too much). The result is that my game looks as good as it ever did for the most part, and in some ways it's definitely better. I chose a specific color scheme for my builds and even though I use the exact same colors the results vary from month to month and, of course, modded parts turn out different from vanilla parts using the same color.

    Thing is, no matter how good or bad we all perceive it to be right now today, it'll change. Anyone that thinks it will never change again from what it is now is just delusional. Therefore, it is not a good idea to spend a lot of time on visual details like color and texture because nothing you make today will look the same a year from now.

    True. It is preferred that comments in the Change Log pertain to the Update in the title, but there are no limitations. It's apparently OK to hijack the Change Log in order to discuss opinions on the intelligence and integrity of Keen's staff, and to do so without facts.

    The Change Logs also allow replies to comments. You have the right to say whatever you want. I have the right to reply. When you say something I don't believe is true I can ask for some sort of verification that I can check for myself, and I can comment on said verification. If you come here or any other Keen forum you should not expect to be able to say whatever and not get challenged. I don't believe it works that way anywhere on the internet.

    I never told you to shut up or get out. I never even told you to stop. All I'm saying is that when you say things like "Keen is ignoring requests to fix long-standing problems" that is a serious accusation that requires proof that, so far, you have not sufficiently provided. I don't think anyone should be allowed to get away with that. Left unattended that sort of thing could result in a complete cessation of production. You say you don't want that but I wonder. Many of us do.

    I don't dismiss negative feedback. I counter it.

    It's allowed.

    I also have the ability to bring some historical perspective to these discussions. When people complain about the way things are I can point out how much worse it was before and in many cases how significant the changes are. Doesn't make me a moderator or an employee or even a celebrity. It's just that when someone comes here and says two plus two is twenty two I feel obliged to point out that the answer is indeed four and I can prove it. Any explanation that says adding two and two will result in twenty two will get challenged because I'm fairly certain I will win that debate.


    SPEAKING OF THE UPDATE:

    Since 1.186 dropped I have been spending all my time in space. Among other things I have been setting waypoints and having my ships follow them on auto pilot. Yesterday I sent a ship to the planet's (earthlike) surface. Everything was as normal until the ship entered the gravity well, at which point the speed dropped to 15 m/s and nothing I did could change it. If I turned the auto pilot off I could go as fast as usual, but if I re-engaged the auto pilot the speed dropped back to 15.

    Well, it's a long way from the edge of the gravity well to the surface. At top speed it's a good ten minutes. At 15 m/s it's just not worth the effort. I haven't seen anything here on the subject but I understand most people don't use the auto pilot, especially on planets. For those that are unaware, the auto pilot behaves differently inside a gravity well. If the forward direction setting is actually set to Forward, the auto pilot will keep your vessel upright and level to the surface. If a waypoint is above the vessel, auto pilot will not point the nose at the waypoint but instead the ship will rise to the waypoint (given sufficient thrust) with the nose pointed squarely at the horizon. In space the nose will unerringly point directly at the waypoint. The change is automatic and takes place according to the presence or absence of planet gravity. Now apparently the presence of planet gravity also sets the speed limit to 15 m/s?

    Has to be a glitch.
     
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  27. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah the autopilot is a very nice and functional concept. But for me it kept staying there like a faulty feature. I mean, it never worked well for me.
    Even in space it's constantly putting on more thrusters than needed and overall looking way too inefficient.
    My dream is for it to be working while being efficient in space and planets (atmosphere+gravity) and just offering some more than a simple a-to-b point of routing.
    Instead it should actually be able to calculate terrain, objects and such ( those features are already there, just not working).

    They're most likely aware of this, and i'm kind of hoping this will come around although it will probably be very hard to code... not yet impossible.
     
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  28. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,391
    Well, they still seem to work ok in space, aside from executing commands when they reach a waypoint. I don't think MP was a thing yet when they put in the remote control and GPS coordinate system. One person can set a lot of waypoints. That can't be good on a server.

    I guess I'll have to go back to landing manually.

    Yeah.




    That's always fun.

    I kid a lot of other people but, to tell the truth I ain't that great of a pilot:(.
     
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  29. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah, that's not really helpful or conclusive sorry- there are no directly comparable pictures/screen shots in order to see a before and after of how the game looked ( or one of your ships specifically ), all I see are hundreds of wildly varying images with different lighting and such. Can't make any conclusions at all, especially given the low-end/ out-dated gfx card and graphics settings. I was just looking for a siude by side comparison to see how you cleared up the horrid glare and oily mess that all the textures have now. Anyway...

    As per Marek's own blog post, this is his vision for how he wants the game to look now, it isn't going to drastically change again- at best they are considering adding sliders to the Post Processing affects ( as per a suggestion I made on the feedback forum- thank me later if they actually decide to do this ). Minor changes to reduce glare, bloom, emissivity of lighting details and such would be welcomed, but yeah, it's not going to be any massive change, trust me. Baring in mind I've said this already, I shouldn't need to repeat myself ( small changes = yes, big changes = no ).

    No one's hijacking anything- discussions naturally evolve, or devolve based around the nature of the updates being discussed to start with. Stop making strawman arguments.

    That's actually funny- you just literally repeated almost word for word what I said to you. Thing is, every time you question my opinion, I do provide proof of what you are asking, repeatedly- see below.

    I have repeatedly provided proof of 4 year old issues that can be tested and verified as being real- all you need to do with stop lying and actually check for yourself. Go to 'The Mother-load' thread I've linked to several times, look at the list of issues I've written down ( there are more, lesser issues, but those are he main ones that everyone who plays the game will notice pretty much every time ), and then play the game and check for yourself, then feel bad about accusing me of not providing evidence when I clearly have. I'll make a video if you really want, but that would only serve to highlight your lying about the matter.

    no, you dismiss it- for example, you said: "It's fine to point out the things you are not happy with. The fist-pounding table-flipping rhetoric is not necessary."

    That's called being dismissive- trust me; no one is fist pounding or table flipping, they are just sharing their thoughts- it's when the thoughts are negative that you become dismissive and insist everything is fine and wonderful and no one has any reason to be upset or fed up. It's not just you, the other members of the cabal are equally as guilty.


    That is blatantly false, again. You've never offered any kind of 'historical perspective' or proof of how much worse things used to be ( simply insisting without citing specific examples is not proof )- not when replying to me; all you've ever done is skirt around issues by pretending they aren't as bad as people say they are, dismiss negative comments about changes and argue the toss when you are provided with clear evidence- such as Zac's screen shots of the oily textures, or entirely ignoring the shopping list of issues I've repeatedly referenced and pretending it doesn't exist or something ( or one of the gang will come along and dismiss it as just being personal gripes- again, there are a number people whom all act in the same way, it's easy to see who has got whose back ).

    This is getting old...
     
  30. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,391
    Yes, you provided proof that there are issues. This is not proof that Keen said they know about these things and they are not going to do anything about them.

    No one said there are no issues. You're the only one saying Keen is ignoring them.
     
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