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Used hydrogen thrusters for the first time..... [appreciation thread?]

Discussion in 'General' started by Forcedminer, Oct 18, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]


    Wow they're powerful. O.o
    small hydrogen thrusters versus the small ion thrusters are nearly 6.5 times more powerful.
    and the large one on a large ship is double as powerful.

    I feel downright slow using standard ion thrusters now.. :D
    i do realize they constantly need for ice but puffing it to high speed then turning them off can save some and the hydrogen tanks can store quite a large amount.


    they don't even use power....I feel like Walle when he was using that fire extinguisher.
    only learned recently you don't even need a hydrogen tank as a single oxygen generator can almost always provide enough hydrogen on the go.
    [but its still nice to have some in backup]
    [​IMG]



    But i do have a serious question about using the hydrogen as a form of propulsion...
    It is just spraying a gas or is it burning it?
     
  2. SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

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    IRL it is burned. In the game there is a flame, so we assume it is burned as hydrogen is invisible.

    My personal theory is that the tanks hold both hydrogen and oxygen in the appropriate ratios, perhaps an inner and outer tank config. That when making H2, the oxy gen also sends the O2. But when you convert ice to O2 for breathing the H2 is tossed overboard for safety reasons.

    This is not cannon and at best is supported by the construction phases of H tanks.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

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    197
    hydrogen engines are great, just remember to turn tanks and generators off when you're landed/parked as a current bug in stable will drain them of fuel even with the thrusters turned off. A leak in a pipe somewhere I suppose.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    You must be using hydrogen in creative.

    Where you'll start paying the price is the amount of extra mass and space to store hydrogen. Having enough ions for day-to-day, sluggish maneuvering is advisable and using hydrogen engines for critical maneuvers and combat.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Seff Apprentice Engineer

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    Not really. The large grid and small grid generators can only process a certain amount of ice per second, and they each have a different conversion ratio for ice to hydrogen (the small grid is less efficient at converting ice to h2). Generally, you can rely on the small grid gens for 166 h2 per second and the large grid gen for 500 h2 a second. This means you need two large grid gens to power one large grid small h2 thruster at full power, and two small grid gens to power three small grid small h2 thrusters at full power.
     
  6. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    I'm not one for creative.
    all my ships are ugly naked things with parts exposed that function well......but look ugly. :p

    the price does seem steep you really do see the ice flying down when you've only 1k of it and are actively using it to hoover.
    I just make sure i have more than i need and tanks with at least 25% before trying to move big distances....just encase...

    I plan to have a backup hydrogen tank named something silly like "CQD" or "SOS" to flick on for emergency
    --- Automerge ---

    yeah i remember seeing a post about that they're useful for small light grids but as you amp up the thrusters and weight you need more oxygen generators if you want more instant hydrogen.
     
  7. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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  8. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

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    This is exactly how to use hydrogen imo!

    Small hydrogen thrusters are also especially great on sleek large grid ships where fitting large ions can be a huge pain on the vertical and lateral axis.
     
  9. Spets Master Engineer

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    I use them in space for a quick afterburner, or quick brake.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  10. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    same although im pretty much going to be using them full time...with a backup tank of Hydrogen for emergency
     
  11. Seff Apprentice Engineer

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    I use H2 for anything that needs a short duration high thrust burn.

    1. Combat maneuvering systems on large grid warships
    2. Orbital boosters to cover the atmo/ion efficiency gap at ~0.85 to ~0.7 g
    3. VTOL/Retro boosters for a little bit of "oh shit" insurance

    I've also got some ion/h2 hybrid ships that are intended to be cheap survival ships. Ions in LRUD+Retro are just station keeping and docking thrusters. Some ion for forward accel (when all else fails, you can turn and burn), but a lot of the ship's thrust is coming from h2 systems. However, those ships are either large grid combat or base ships or a gunboat-sized small grid ship.
     
  12. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    I only use hydro on disposable combat ships I expect to get badly damaged. Losing thruster comps in 1X survival is painful if you aren't relying on farming assailant spam and easy peasy cargo ships.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Vigo the Dudepathian Trainee Engineer

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    Umm not really? Pt may take a while but a 9 drill vanilla miner can get millions of tons of ore in not too much time. More drills means even less time. Have 8-12 refineries and you are good to go. Now making the things....
     
  14. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    The problem isn't the mining, it's the refining.

    It takes a pretty long time to get 8-12 refineries and a large miner going.....especially on 1x when you don't have the T comps in the first place! If you're collecting millions of tons of ore that will take many, many hours to refine you're actually hurting yourself by clogging inventory and making your ships heavy.

    Once you are well established in a world resources are trivial, but at the very start where you are struggling with 1-2 refineries and nothing but hand tools refining PT is tough, also you can't afford to have said refineries clogged up with PT full time, you need to refine the other stuff too, and pretty much all of the stuff you need to run through a refinery is slow.
     
  15. Vigo the Dudepathian Trainee Engineer

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    Well since that is the only mechanic besides sandbox I'll take it. The game needs progression and milestones, as now it's just streamlining production. I want research or blueprints you have to find.
     
  16. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    I'm not interested in BPs or research, but some meaningful PVE and trading, etc would be nice.

    Grinding Pt ingots is a poor substitute for those items.
     
  17. SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

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    Additional AI factions, basic interactions with AI factions (war, peace, etc), and basic evasive maneuvers for cargo ships?
     
  18. Vigo the Dudepathian Trainee Engineer

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    Honestly this is feasible and the more realistic of the options. They just BADLY need to optimize the ai code.
     
  19. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Personally I love the hydrogen thrusters myself but despise how quickly the hydrogen gets used up. if it wasn't for that i would actually play on survival more often than what I do.
     
  20. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

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    I agree, the hydrogen does run out quickly (especially now with the bug that depletes generators and tanks super fast) but it seems like they are more meant to get your huge weights off planet or down to the surface and that's it. Then you use atmospheric or ion engines. I can see why they did that, but it seems like kind of a wasted opportunity for a new way to build "daily-driver" ships. A great solution to this would be a higher tier hydro tank that stores a huge amount of hydro at high pressure in a medium sized light weight tank.
     
  21. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    Hmmm...that'd be a fun type of build challenge to try....
    a sort of planetary sling shot that accelerates a ship then flings them off planet to its destination where on the other side it has some way of catching it....

    obviously with some thrusters and gyros for auto correcting but enough.......ehhhh.....guess it wouldn't work as well with a max speed of 107 and roughly 150,000 meters of distance to cover before the sweet sweet embrace of gravity is gone....
     
  22. SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

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    I'd settle for the quantity of H2 in the tanks affecting weight.
     
  23. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    Most ships require very little internal volume dedicated to systems for true "survival builds". Other than energy production, cargo storage, and production blocks, there is really nothing else in SE other than aesthethics and a med bay. And frankly, cargo is too heavy to have that much volume dedicated to storage. I've never needed more than 4 fully upgraded assemblers and 12 fully upgraded refineries to run my entire survival operation with capacity to spare. All of that fits into a tiny volume compared to the build sizes of common ships in the 10-mil kg range.

    You can turn a huge amount of otherwise wasted internal volume into fuel storage then. Tanks are kinda tough/structural anyway.

    Most real life aerospace vehicles have huge amounts of internal volume dedicated to fuel. So it is with SE.

    As an aside: unless you are orbiting/de-orbiting, in combat, or doing some sort of mining/grinding/welding you don't actually use your thrusters that much. You accel, drift for a loooooong time, and then decel so overall thruster use for transporting or migrating is very small.

    Ice is common in space and the thrusters are incredibly cheap relative to ions so hydro still has tons of general usage. Also hydro is produced very quickly compared to U, production can be stacked for dirt cheap (mostly just iron comps) and it doesn't divert from your main production of your refineries.

    If you can't get cheap thruster components via piracy hydro is actually quite attractive for logistic purposes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 3
  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    I use hydrogen in the beginning when platinum and platinum refining is in short supply. I'll make a refining barge and take it between asteroids while using the yellow ship as a miner. There's more than enough resources aboard the yellow ship to add one drill, an extra small cargo block and enough resources to make plumbing to get your ore to the refinery at back. Then I'll concentrate on building the barge. I'll put hydrogens on it and merge it to the back of the yellow ship. I'll keep building up refineries and large cargo on the barge until I can easily make a proper mining ship. Then I'm in a good position for a permanent base and going nuts on the platinum.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    I do something similar.

    I add a drill to the nose of the banana boat and run a conveyor/small cargo line to it, that also runs through the medbay to let it provide H2 and O2.

    I then scout out all of the nearby roids in suit to find surface deposits of the essential stuff to save my U supply.

    Then I go mine a bunch for essential stuff to make a small grid ship: Ni, Fe, Co and Si and of course some U.

    During that process once I've got some Ni and Co I will strip out a bunch of the stuff in the back in order to fit 4 upgrade modules to the banana boat as well as three arc furnaces so that I can do Ni, Fe, and Co simultaneously. I then upgrade the assembler with Prod modules and start cranking out my component list for my second ship. I also add a timer and two PBs to run TIM and the LCD script so that I can streamline refining and keep track of my bits. Then I go find some MG for ammo.

    When I've got all of the stuff I need to make a ship I crank out a small grid boostrapper (two small grid connectors, a battery, two landing gear and a projector) and throw together a small grid self welding fighter. I merge block the banana boat to a roid and strip off most of it's thrusters to build said fighter. While it builds itself the refinery munches the mg and a churn out some ammo boxes.

    And then I go hunting for one of the big pirate saucer stations. Zero speed and 4 guns is no match for said fighter, neither are the drones. Once the base is taken I grab the T comps to rebuild the banana boat thrusters enough to bring it and lock it to the station.

    From that point you can expand quickly in any number of ways. I prefer dabbling in additional piracy while only mining for essentials and the first large ship I usually make is an H2 powered mining support ship that is crammed with 8 or so refineries and a huge stack of arcs.

    I generally never refine PT and prefer to salvage it via piracy.
     
  26. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    If not implemented correctly something like that could just as easily backfire. I would much rather the rate that it's depleted just be lowered or allow us to carry more hydrogen in the tanks to start with as that imo would be much easier to implement without too many balance concerns.
     
  27. SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

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    They already increased the capacity a few updates ago.
     
  28. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    yet hydrogen is still pissed way too easily. I get that hydrogen by nature isn't going to be as cheap to operate however imo it still gets used up way too quickly.
     
  29. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    Once the hydrogen usage bugs are gone this will be a lot better, but I think you should just build multiple tanks. If we look at the amount space dedicated to fuel for space shuttle launches you will notice how much more efficient the ships in space engineers are.

    Just have a connection to oxy gens at your stations to refill and you should have plenty of fuel to do what you need before redocking.

    As to taking off....if the autopilot works well you could actually make a shuttle that detaches near empty fuel pods as it leaves the atmosphere and they can autopilot back to your ground base to refuel. Can autopilot dock as well?
     
  30. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227

    yeah i have noticed some hydrogen leaking away at times turning the hydrogen thrusters on and off at loading seems to prevent it...but its easily to forget about...


    as for the autopilot thing

    ...... :/ don't think so.
    but you could measure the time it takes to go from A to Z and then stick a timer block on it with a bit of extra generous timing to connect a connector.
    that could work...if all else fails.....scripting could be the best answer.

    if....somehow if you write a script that detects if a connect can connect then connect the connector......heh
     
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