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Warning for new players.

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Dec 28, 2016.

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  1. Phoera Senior Engineer

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    this game much simplier.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    While I understand your frustration, please try to see things from our perspective too. Despite its problems, Space Engineers is still the favorite game of very many. It's just a natural instinct for people to defend what they love when they see something they interpret as an attack. I'm not trying to tell you not to voice your concerns, not at all, that's counterproductive. I'm just asking you to have just a little bit of consideration when you write your posts. Sure, there'll probably still be some who will argue against you, there will always be those who really do defend blindly.

    I'm not very knowledgeable in network programming myself; I've never had the need to learn, but I'm not convinced that SE will ever be really good in multiplayer with many players, the game is just too complex, there's just too many things that needs to be synchronized and synchronized at the right time. With all due respect to Keen's programmers, and I know they're quite capable, I'm not convinced they are able to solve these problems. They are trying to hire more senior multiplayer programmers though, specifically for SE. The question is whether all these challenges are solvable at all. I guess we'll still just have to wait and see. I believe some people will be disappointed no matter what, expecting 50-100 player servers and such. I will be very pleasantly surprised if this happens. No matter what, the hardware and bandwidth requirements of the servers will remain considerable, I think. It'll be interesting to see what happens now, and I'll be waiting for Keen to prove me wrong.

    I consider myself lucky though. There's not all that much missing before Space Engineers is the game I want it to be. I don't need multiplayer to have fun in SE. I still recognize its importance, the game would be nowhere near as popular as it is without it.

    I have been very patient during the Alpha phase, because buggy alpha is just the lay of the land. I still expect bugs to be plentiful during Beta, but I will also expect things to eventually improve. Beta is the time for bugfixing and stabilization: Unfortunately it's also the time for optimization, since all major features are now done. Optimization often causes new bugs, especially since they're introducing more and more multithreading as well, which is really difficult to get right even for the most experienced programmers. What I'm saying is, there's a significant chance that things will get worse before they get better.

    Some people are insisting that they went to Beta too early. We'll see.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  3. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    I think it was premature, but it's also just a word. It doesn't mean much other than what we expect it to.

    But yes, I have to admit that the expectation to log onto a server with a friend and sink hours into resource collection and building a ship, flying it around to explore and find more resources.. that simple goal is still a recipe for tears.
    If it's not someone crashing (and making hard earned components or sometimes entire ships vanish) then it's the crashing into things, explosions for no reason other than "used a part that moves", unexpected movement, falling through floors and whatnot.
    You could argue that most of these bugs don't happen in single player, but then I would argue that without MP there is not much point.

    These are not reasonable hardships to endure in a survival game, it just plain is not ready. New players SHOULD be warned that any and all time investments are subject to random instantaneous loss, and that the satisfaction of completing hard work will never be realized unless you do it offline, by yourself. With the backup saves constantly rolling.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. DizzyDave Trainee Engineer

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    You know I find it kind of funny, I've been playing this game sense early to mid alpha, and have seen the game get better and better with almost every update, and yet there is still this distrust of keen. Why? because of some bugs, multiplayer isn't 100% perfect, that ladders aren't back yet? Please tell me why?
     
  5. Malware Master Engineer

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    This is very true and something to keep in mind.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    The game HAS gotten better, no doubt. But some of the longest standing issues still persist, most of the complaints I just listed pre-date planets.
    That is why.
     
  7. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

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    The "problems" that we perceive as perhaps easy to fix are not so easy to fix. Calling for a warning to new players is apocalyptic though. And frankly, if you have issues with new players on your DS, than I'd say that's more a problem with your clientele and not the game or the community at larges' problem.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. DizzyDave Trainee Engineer

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    True, but most of the things you mentioned could be server side issues, not all of which are in keens ability to fix.
     
  9. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    No one said they were "easy to fix" we are saying keen needs to kick their butt into gear because some if not most of these have been around for 2 years. And that is a long term investment on our patience so the end product had better be great. And just to clarify by great I mean twice the game it is now. Space engineers needs much more to remain a competitive game else it will have a very short "shelf life"

    Space engineers was a good idea three years ago, now the market is starting to get saturated. Starmade, From the depths, Galactic Emperion (or whatever) Scrap mechanic etc. Keen needs to fix what is in, flesh out current features, and create something more to define itself as something other than a technology demo.

    Brand Loyalty is not exactly a great business model for video games. And what's currently implemented in this game is already being outdone by competitors. Coupled with the resentment growing for the early access genera and the history of this company, we can't exactly bank on keen software succeeding.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  10. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

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    Kick their butt into gear? Again, you're making the grand assumption that what you are asking for is simply a minor thing to tackle at best. What you're failing to grasp with your tirade is the arrogance with which you are speaking down at Keen and their ability simply because they are not meeting YOUR demands in YOUR time frame.

    Of every other game that has come to some form of release since SE came about, they are all trying to tackle a market from their respective niche's and viewpoints but frankly not one of them is as grand an attempt then what Keen has been striving for and frankly is closer to achieving than any of the recent upstarts.

    What I and many others get tired of is holier than thou attitudes like yours demanding your participation trophies rather than providing adequate feedback through the bug report system and having patience that the devs are working on the game to make it better at the best of their abilities and speed.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    So you believe that it is perfectly reasonable for a dev team not to be able to fix diagnosed flaws that have remained in their system for two full years?
     
  12. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

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    With no understanding of the means of solving the problem nor the mechanisms that go into causing it in the first place. Yes.
     
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  13. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    Thats ridiculous.
     
  14. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    Fun Fact - Survival was once called Manual mode.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  15. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

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    Normally I would disagree, but the recent bug of grids literally sinking into voxels and station grids, being obliterated in the process has made playing a survival game rather inadvisable until it is resolved.

    Small bugs okay, big bugs which could result in your 20 plus hour investment of building to be momentarily obliterated entirely with all the resources gone with it, not okay.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

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    Ah, the good ole days :tu:
     
  17. Ravric Apprentice Engineer

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    Minor thing: 3rd person has been broken for some time (since October 2015) not observing connected grids

    Time frame: They will never fix it.

    Soon KSH is not going to like me. I care too much about this game and they should too.
     
  18. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

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    and thus is your perceived viewpoint of entitlement.

    Keen, unlike many many many other EA/Beta games is continuing to develop the game and fix things. There are more than a few dev's who've simply taken the money and run after 3-6 months of being out in EA. Unfortunately this is whats become of the gaming world. It used to be you couldn't play a game until it was officially complete. Beta's then became the new demo's and then EA became the new beta/money grab.
     
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  19. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    It used to be that alpha and beta testers were a respected position that game devs payed for. And that entitlement you are talking about is called paying money for the game.
     
  20. Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

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    Ah, but there's a fine distinction... You didn't pay money for "the game." You paid money for early access to a game still in development. You bought into the hope that it'll eventually be everything you want it to be.

    Now, if you had paid money for a title that was in full release, with no mention of beta or early access... Then entitlement is fully warranted, as there is an explicit expectation that the game is finished and ready for prime time (minus the normal raft of patches and tweaks that all games, including AAA titles, experience).

    That, unfortunately, is what most people don't seem to get about the early access system, as a rule. It's a gamble, almost a crowdfunding type of transaction.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  21. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    @Vrmatrix
    you are WRONG !
    You dont pay for NOTHING as an Hope ...
    READ the STEAM Rules over an EarlyAcess Game ...
    THIS Rules apply , nothing else .. no "The community think alpha/beta/anything means this or that bla bla .."
    It is an conntract .. not an childhood thing - it is busines ...
    And here i READ CLEAR -> An unfinnished Game in Very playable state !
    Sure .. keen have changed the general "Multiplayer" Tag to "Multiplayer (Alpha) " and so , you cant legal dont bother more if the multiplayer not working ... very smart and "nice" sign to the community ...
    But singleplayer MUSST in an very playable state WITH all features that listes as working. (things that listed as planed are not more and not less ...)
    So you can self answer the question, if the game in an "very playable" state ...... (not halfway playable, not sometimes playable ..in all offered play modes -> Creative/Survival) !

    The story would be different have keen used an self promotion/self marketing and selling way for SE ..
    Then he have maked his own rules, like Star Citizen ...
    But if you sell on steam, you are bound to the steam rules.

    Regards
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    For what it's worth, the beta phase is generally when things get fixed and finalized. I took Keen's decision to declare beta as an indication that this is now their primary focus.

    In a normal software development cycle there wouldn't even be a public beta available at this point. The game isn't "fit to the played" yet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    Could you link me to said documentation?
     
  24. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    From the Steam Windows Client, Shop Page of SpaceEngineers - Early Access Info Box :
    "Space Engineers is an Early Access game, which means that it is still under development but already in a very playable state and contains a vast amount of new features that have been added since its first release (e.g. Multiplayer, Survival mode). The game is being improved on a regular basis through updates that add and polish features and content, optimizations and bug fixes.
    ....."

    Steam Early Access means you CAN play the game, only it have not all planed features inbuild.
    But the features with which is advertised and customers caught MUSST in game and playable ...
    I dont think any would get angry over an bug that maybe took even one month or two to fix ...
    But bugs still here for YEARS and none, NOT ONE sign of getting better ..... sorry .......................
    (and for the user where here after apr.2016 and have played only DS MP with the v2 netcode (with ServerSide Control ..), i am not surprised you say "it is now much better .." - as i wrote, it is now BACK on the same state as MP was from Okt.2015 - Apr.2016 .... but with many new bugs and none of the listet bugs from late 2015 fixed .... so sorry i can not applaud to this ....)

    Regards
     
  25. Skeloton Master Engineer

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    When you needed iron AND magnesium to make steel plates, oh and ice was refined to me potassium to make ammo.
     
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  26. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    So, the result of this is the same old argument about it being pre release and to expect issues.... one could call that a warning? That new players should be aware of?
    :p
     
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  27. Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

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    1,017
    And you know, even way back then, it really bugged me that armor blocks somehow transmit data and power, but didn't have a drop of copper in them... I was convinced they'd eventually add that material requirement.
    --- Automerge ---
    Ugh, I really hate auto-merge in quotes sometimes... Let me try this again... *sigh*

    I never said you don't pay for NOTHING. I merely said you didn't pay for "the game." You paid for "the game in an unfinished state" to use your quoted source. You were given absolutely NO written guarantee of when that game would be finished in this "contract" transaction, so complaining about how long it takes is pointless. You signed into an open-ended situation when you jumped into early access. If you can't seem to fathom that, I really don't know how to help you.

    And the game is in a very playable state. It's not perfect, not even close, but it is VERY playable. Sometimes more playable than others, but still. A huge chunk of players on this forum have hundreds or even thousands of hours of play time in the game. Just because the specific thing that YOU want to do doesn't work right now, it does not mean the game can't be considered playable.

    As I said before I managed to wipe my own comment out in an auto-merge (good times)... I respect your enthusiasm and frustration, and I share much of it with you. But I also fully realize exactly what I paid for when I got into this in the first place. And I've had this game since it launched in early access. YEARS of watching it grow and evolve, break and be fixed. Still waiting for it to get polished and be finished. Still not screaming every 5 minutes about it not being done. You see, early access requires patience and optimism. If you don't have both of those, you should never buy a game until the official release. Then you can scream and complain to your heart's content about the state of the game - your "contract" notion is much more valid there, since you have paid money for what is being presented as a finished and FULLY playable game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    530
    An Game where most things dont work as expected (driving on planet with an Car/using landing gears in gravitation/survival aspect in self filling Tanks/exploding rotor+pistons...) to say it is "Very Playable" is out of my sense .. sorry .. we musst have an diff seen of "very playable" .... (or you can say me the naming ,if all of ther above mentoned bugs would working .., of playability you would expected .. Ultra playable ? ....)
    And this was only a little scope of the bugs and only bugs from single player ...
    No one say you cant play the game in only Space on Asteroiden field in an action creative style ...
    Butt hen that MUSST stay on the steam sale site ....(or better - the other game variants musst "at best" marked as Alpha (like the Multiplayer) and Planed ...)
    So you pay for things that should in game - but ots not ...

    If you dont understand that on steam you pay for an game that musst (most times , bugs "can" happen ..) works with the praised features and the ONLY difference to finished Game is that still features planed or in testing , then we have nothing to discuse ... then you simply dont understand law of busines and only defend keen with lies and propaganda ...

    Regards
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  29. Zoladen Apprentice Engineer

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    116
    I normally will not comment on threads like this, but I do watch them anyway. I have a few requests though.

    Can we take a few hours or maybe a day, catch our breath and come back to discuss things a bit more calmly? Things seem to be getting a little pointedly aggressive at each other.

    Also, @Dragonspride , Would you mind updating your initial post to include the clarification of what you're warning about? I know it was expanded on in detail later on through other posters as well, but for clarity with any new people that see this, you should probably show your full point up front.

    I can't honestly agree or disagree with either side. I know there are bugs and people run into them, but I seem to be one of the folks who don't run into the larger bugs that cause you to lose hours upon hours of work.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Sadly it is the usual this game has bugs and they stop me from playing tirade. And as was pointed out, it's being fielded by the same old crew.

    I don't remember a lot of that. I thought ice didn't come out until oxygen which was long after manual mode got changed to survival per community request. I do remember somebody having a ice mod before ice though.
     
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