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Warp drives for 100+ speed (PvP and speed discussion)

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Dazeuh, Oct 14, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Dazeuh Trainee Engineer

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    77
    I hate seed mods, they kill any potential for PvP, ye t we need more speed to get around in any real timescale.

    Asteroids, abouts 10km apart, sometimes double or tripple that distance, you have to search several of them before finding the resources you need.
    Too short a distance for a jump drive, if you even have one at your early peasant stage.

    Exiting and entering a planet, holy moly the time spent between those, something I could live with though, kinda exciting.
    Traveling around a planet, from outside or inside, prepare to grow a beard.

    100m/s, 50km travel, 8 minutes travel time
    human attention span average 9 seconds, doing nothing but holding W.

    100m/s is a good speed for small grid ship PvP, it should never go higher than that, we need something other than the jump drive to give us speed without such speed being involved with ship to ship PvP.
    --------

    WARP DRIIIIVVES
    All ships should have it available, whether it come as a tiny block or another function of cockpits 9I say tiny block because small grid ships are already stretched for performance verses space to put things
    not bothered about the cost of using it, but I'd rather it be tedious to start and stop etc, as in only worth using if you're traveling a long straight stretch of 10km+

    What speed should it give?
    • I'd say anything between 200m/s to 400m/s, perhaps differing between grid sizes, and maybe differing in speed with or without natural gravity. Should also be very slow to turn during its usage.
    • Also needs a really sweet warping effect all around covering the size of the ship.

    What disadvantages should it give?
    That warp drive you're showing off shows really far, people can see your massive warp signature from thousands of meters away on HUD. (Now you can find people in PvP!)
    • Small grid warp signature 10000m or something
    • Large grid warp signature 50000m or something
    • (Possibly depending on size of ships?)
    • In the presence of non-allied warp drive units, it cannot function. This can intentionally be used as an interdiction sphere, blocking passage and stopping people from warping too close to you, or warping/jumping away from you. This effect also applies to jump drives too.
    • Small grid interdiction sphere 1000m or something
    • Large grid interdiction sphere 5000m or something
    • (expensive and heavy specialised interdiction blocks can be built to block off massive areas of space, like 20000m+ or something)

    How is should the warp drive gain and lose its speed?
    • Perhaps increase the max speed to whatever, and let the ship accelerate on it's thrusters as normal.
    • Natural gravity isn't friendly to warp drives, the max speed allowed is much lower, 200m/s at best. If you are traveling above that speed when you enter natural gravity, physics isnt friendly to your delicate ship. you begin to feel tremors and hear aching hull, but after natural gravity hits 0.1 you best hope your speed is lower than 201m/s or those rumbles turn into screeching crushing and exploding hull noises, or whatever warp does to hulls on a bad day.
    • (I like games with punishing physics)
    • Should you manage to warp your ship into another (or any asteroid, planet etc), ships still in warp are crushed/disintergrated, call it whacky science but we dont want warp ramming, and the lag that follows.

    What do you guys think? Would this be better than those speed mods? Is it simple and punishing enough? Balanced for PvP? Anything you want to add? like putting a spherical gravity generator next to a interdiction block creates a singularity maybe?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  2. Stormigedon Trainee Engineer

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    72
    Well at first glance it's far, far, far, far to easy to use for interdiction. Also other than that and being a beacon, which isn't a bad idea really, what exactly does this do besides act as a conditional speed mod?
     
  3. Dazeuh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Turning warped ships into beacons allows players to see each other, and cause more player interaction, PvP or otherwise.
    Also 5000m interdiction is well within visual range, and the idea is so that you can't warp or jump out of a PvP situation until you have escaped by normal means. Interdiction prevents people running away using warp, and prevents people warping right ontop of you where turrets are already blazing.
     
  4. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    And it also turns every player who hasn't created a fleet yet into a big shining beacon.
     
  5. Stormigedon Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    72
    Ok, you didn't answer my question though. However I'll provide counter points to what you did say
    You'll notice I took no issue with this idea. Though it sounds like sioxernic thinks it'll always be on and acting as a beacon, in that case it's a terrible idea
    I never said it wasn't, however it is next to impossible to escape a PvP situation using this system. You can't out run someone in SE, the physics just aren't there. Many combat ships have +20m/s acceration, if you're closer than ~4500m you can't escape. As you described it, it cost nothing to run with no time limit on interdiction, which means the chase will continue till someone gets bored and gives up.
    Preventing telefraging is a fine enough point, but stopping warp based on proximity is, as described above, a poor solution. Better, would be to scoot a play who tries to stop to close a few km away, much like the jumpdrive

    So I'll say again, how does this change the speed differently than a speed mod with conditions?
     
  6. Dazeuh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Speed mods increase the general speed above 100m/s, which makes PvP laughable. have you tried shooting another fighter zooming around at the speed of light? its hard enough just to keep track of where they went. I want higher traveling speeds, but I want 100m/s to be the max speed used during PvP. That is why I've bothered thinking up of a better mechanic for vanilla.

    I like the idea of passive interdiction because it prevents warp from being a factor during a fight, it forces interaction (which multiplayer lacks much of right now). The issue of the equal speed is is already present, and my watp idea won't affect it. If people agree that warp or jump drives should be used to let people run away, then fine, but it reduces interaction.
    Ships only show up on HUD within certain distances DURING the usage of warp. Having people show up all the time at those distances probably would be a bad idea.

    All suggested distances and speed numbers are my general estimate for balance, and causing more interactivity for ships in the same area (because normally they arn't going to see anyone, cause they're either busy or the other ship is a tiny spec blending in with the stars, and also space is really big, the chances of coming across players is pretty rare even on planets.) while providing a reason to not use warp drive all the time, because being seen means pirate types might see you.

    Perhaps the jump drive shouldn't be disabled entirely, but slowed down to taking a minute to jump away in the presence of interdiction, to give the attacker time to do whatever.
     
  7. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    Speed mods will never be part ofd vanilla. We have been told this. The speed cap is there because the physics engine does not work correctly at higher speeds, and issues are caused. Ships colliding at high speeds 'phase' through as hte physics engine has the ships move too far between collision checks.

    What the OP is suggesting is a way to cover the empty space areas a bit faster, without running into the current speed cap. The OP is thinking purely from a PvP aspect, but you have to look at all play types and think whether an idea will work. You cannot make the game purely PvP or purely PvE....as the developers don;t want to do that.

    I am primarily a PvE player, but I can see the benefit of a 'cruise' drive that allows you to travel faster, but also prevents combat issues above the speed cap and shonky collisions.

    Having a cruise drive with a spool up time, so you can't jump straight away, plus a cooldown before you can fire it again, and potentially with 'straight line only flight' so you can't turn or change direction without disconnecting the drive, and dropping back below the speed cap. I don't see the need specifically for an interdiction block.....but you could use the cruise drive block iteself as an 'interdiction' block...with a range of 1000m, so powering up a cruise block in the vicinity of another active block stops BOTH from working.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Dazeuh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Theoretically if a game is perfectly balanced for PvP in all the ways we like, then the game should be fine for non-PvP too.
    As for collision checks we can have the warp drive cancel when voxels are dead ahead. The turn rate during warp is extremely limited too, so hopes of turning away from something dead ahead won't happen during warp.
     
  9. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    Nope... Straight up nope...
    PvP balance is contingent on the fact that players are capable of using advanced tactics, while an AI wont be able to, therefor you cannot use perfect PvP balance to get even a decent PvE one.
     
  10. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    Kek.I like this sentence its true while playing a game a fish has a longer memory than a gaming humans attention span.
    It ends up making me do the dirty smelly trasher....erm thats how i remember it......distance speed over time calculation
    while I'll wait so i can put on some fitting music like smooth jazz.
    [​IMG]


    the main technical issue with going faster than 100 m/s is that the faster you got the less likely your hitbox will be accurate.
    literally if you go fast enough you can phase through asteroids,planet surfaces and even other grids.

    personally.....I dislike speed mods because you get up to 400 m/s....now slow down rapidly before you crash into something. :p


    perhaps a lighter cheaper weaker jump drive in the form of a mod.
    I've always wanted to make a jump drive that is much lighter and name it the holly hop drive. :p
    a cheaper,weak,less power hungry jump drive that specializes in small jumps quickly enough
    http://reddwarf.wikia.com/wiki/Holly_Hop_Drive
     
  11. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    The problem with speed is do not have homing missiles and laser weapons.
    I am totally against warpdrives, it need to be replaced by hyper space gates. Gates are less overpowered, it need a ship for warp other ships and have more accuracy.
     
  12. Dazeuh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    I get the impression you didnt read how my suggestion would work at all, or remember that there is already a jump drive, which are practically better than space gates.
    --- Automerge ---

    We can have it so dropping out of warp immediately goes back to 100m/s as max and currant speed, solving the wonky hitbox at high speed problem, which is technically realistic anyway since it is the warp that bends space to go around the ship at a faster rate.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    292
    I read your post, maybe something was lost in translation. It's about speed limit break being "warpdrive" with it rules.
    • In your idea, can ship shoot when warping?
    Jump drives are warpdrive as jumps, so basically is jump is "bend a lot and stop" and warp is "bend a little, stop, bend a little, stop, bend a little, stop....". I mentioned hyperspace because i'm against easy ways to bend the space, it's too much overpowered for the size of our abstraction of space.
    Let speed just be speed, but I think you could almost create something cool !
     
  14. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,227

    I know its not my game at all but if it was me...
    I'd make ships have a much larger hitbox when going above 100 m/s and any collision would be sufficient enough to destroy a massive amount or just straight up explode the entire ship....something pretty and brutal like the warp drive explodes creating a short lived black hole with massive gravity and sucks the entire ship into it.

    as for the black hole technically i would have it created a very powerful gravity field and have some industrial block inside it spin powerfully.
    so it grinds and explodes ships into nothing. >:3
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    469
    Some sort of cruising option is something I would like to see, having ships locked to a maximum speed that is so easily achieved ( Cheat or not, my gravity propelled destroyer will get up to 100m/s in a blink. Its down right ludicrous considering the relatively low power draw it has to be able to go from 0 to maximum speed like that)

    Visibility of the active drive, if only active during operation is a positive aspect of this. Additionally I would like to see Spooling jump drives create some kind of energy signature that is marked on the HUD.

    Interdiction is an interesting aspect, It does somewhat solve one of the most frustrating aspects of PVP encounter's in Space engineers ( Excluding encounters set up specifically as a scenario by players who agree not to flee ) . In any Survival scenario, where loss of resources is persistent and in absence of any territory assets worth committing your ship to defending it really exist, combat is rarely a protracted engagement but rather a hastily conducted ambush affair.

    If I go into any combat engagement with my custom built munitions fired from a safe distance I can expect one good volley of fire to hit the target, maybe not even that since the target has 8 seconds of awareness of my incoming fire when his turrets pick up the incoming grid and it only take 2.5 seconds for a charged jump drive to successfully jump. Meaning an aware target simply jumps away before successful hit and an unaware target likely jumps away once the first volley hits if jump drives are intact since the big explosions will get their attention, and all the resources's I could have taken as a prize jump away with that player. I'll I've managed to do is spend resources to inconvienince another player and have nothing to show for it. ( Obviously you could attack offline players but where's the challenge in that?)

    If I decided to engage with conventional turrets any aware player will size me up, and stay to fight if he is confident in which case I've made a big mistake, or flee meaning I've wasted my time moving to engage the target. If they do stay, whoever starts to loose too badly will break off the engagement, again leaving me with nothing to show for it, except in this case I have even less to show for it since I've taken return fire damage as well.

    The Interdiction effect may just force players to flee by conventional means with jump drives offline, but since that will mean committing to a likely random heading away from your known resources or potential base and a indefinite pursuit at max speed it may convince some players to face their aggressors forcing more engagements that will actually lead to satisfying combat. On the flipside however this is a massive disadvantage to players choosing to play the game in a non confrontational manner with non combat ships, putting them at the mercy of conflict hungry players seeking a brawl with ships designed to do so. From a developer perspective weighing up the player satisfaction between those who want a fight and those who would prefer to avoid one isn't an easy task.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  16. Dazeuh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    I would have thought that players who go on multiplayer servers should expect to be attacked at some point, thats the nature of multiplayer servers for games like these. If they get caught, it's not totally unexpected.
    As for max speed and gravity generators making PvP speed related balance really wonky, I dont know what can be done to fix it. I'd suggest a max acceleration for gravitydrives so they can still be used but arn't instantanous. Small grids could stick to 100m/s while large girds be lower, so that fighters and missles can catch upto larger ships somewhat. Then the issue of players who wantto run away have a chance of escaping.. jump drives within interdiction fields can me made to just take longer, a minute or two of charging so the attacker has time to get shots in and the defender has a chance to escape if played well or already well out of range from weapons.
     
  17. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

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    469
    Personally I agree with that being on a multiplayer server invites potential danger from other players, unless such behavior is explicitly banned by the server admins, and that the responsibility of players who wish not to fight is to actively evade the fight. Just playing a bit of devils advocate for the other side of the coin so to speak.

    Making jumps take longer is a good idea, giving attacking players a window of opportunity to attack. Something which alters the engagement to give the escaping player the challenge of surviving for a period of time rather than indefinitely against targets they have no chance of defeating in combat but still removing their ability to simply disengage from combat before it even gets started.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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