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Welders... the bigger picture.

Discussion in 'General' started by Ronin1973, Feb 6, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,945
    Welders have been nerfed. Change them back.

    Keen argument #1.
    "New players complained they were dying when running into hot welders."

    Everyone does this when they are new. You respawn and remind yourself to turn your welders off if you're going to be in the area or set up a sensor to turn them off if you get too close.

    Keen argument#2.
    "People are building PMW too easily and it affects balance."

    In the last two months we now have optical LIDAR as well as inter-grid communications. Parking a fleet of automated ships up someone's exhaust port with direct fire weapons is going to be as easy as pasting a script from the workshop. But welders with adequate range are too OP?



    It really feels like this change came from a mandate from ONE particular player who loves dirty glass. So far the community has responded very negatively to the change. It really breaks a lot of workshop items as well as a lot of long-term players ENGINEERING within the game. I've not seen any commentary expressing agreeing with the change. Nor have I ever seen any complaints about welder deaths in the community.

    I shouldn't have to use a mod to get my engineered stuff to work or be used by others when I post it in the workshop.

    Please note that the WORKSHOP is a major marketing force behind sales of the game. It demonstrates what is possible and what can be had with the purchase of the game. We have an OS for robotic arms IN the workshop available for free to ANYONE who purchases the game from Keen. This is just one example.

    So when you nerf welders or do things that upsets the workshop community, they post fewer things, take down awesome creations that are now "broken" and even stop with their free marketing of the game.

    So you're not just changing the range of the welder, you're changing the ability to actually engineer in the game. Pistons and rotors are still broken and are unusable in multiplayer around other players. They are major sources of in-game engineering that people post workshop items using.


    I hope those who feel affect reply to this thread. Keep it respectable.
     
    • Agree Agree x 37
  2. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

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    228
    Wow keen actually said pmws are too easy to build and too powerful? Even if everything goes right and your racks mounted on rotors don't fail, these weapons are limited to the same speed as ships... In many cases these weapons even have worse acceleration than the ships they are firing on making evasive maneuvers extremely simple. The only things they are exceptionally powerful against are static ships/stations and in all honesty throwing a giant rock is probably more effective while requiring almost no engineering.
     
  3. noxLP Junior Engineer

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    729
    How bad is the nerf? Honestly, I'm at a SE's rest right now.
     
  4. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    I dont personally mind it.
    Ok some creations might be broken but it wont generally take that much effort to add few welders.
    It also requires more so said ENGINEERING to work with more limitations caused by new weldbox.

    I also dont mind that pmw`s require some more space to be built.
    As far as i know welded torpedoes are the most destructive type of weapons. It is probably safer to balance things by nerfing something than buffing the others.

    I think pmw-wise nerf was justified.

    Currently a very simple player made torpedo can penetrate 4 layers of heavy armor quite easily. (Large grid) All this while being autonomously guided at best.


    Most competitive adversory is probably gravity driven ore cannon.
    They however are quite unreliable in terms of penetration. I have seen over million kg stone asteroid just bounce off heavy armor.
    Even if ore cannons would deal reliable they can be easily countered with gravgens.

    Missiles?
    It takes around 18 missiles to destroy layer of heavy armor. So they are in severe disadvantage versus torpedoes in terms of dps.
    But i dont really think their role really is to decimate anything but fighters. Considering they are so darn easy to spam.

    Gatlings are not really anything but point defense tool.
    Another way to nerf pmw's would possibly be to buff gatlings.
    This however would also make efficient fighter building even harder than it is now. Since at close range fighters are pretty much smited by point defense weapons. It would also encourage gatling spam which means l-l-l-l-l-l-a-a-a-g.

    What i feel we achieve with this nerf?
    We make it more beneficial to create sustaining drones and fighters over torpedo volleys.

    (I personally consider this as good thing because it promotes good design. You have to pump more effort to making good fighters and drones that last in combat rather than shooting volley after volley of steel rods.)

    This nerf also nerfs large ships overall without affecting small grids. And as far as i know small ships seem to somewhat struggle because of inefficiency low damage weapons and heavy weight. So this nerf brings small and large grid ships closer in terms of balance and encourages fighter building. Which means more diverse gameplay. Which is often considered to be a good thing.

    What we lose from this nerf?

    Some workshop content gets broken.
    This will mean people have to repair them (add few welders) or just let them lay there to be forever forgotten.

    Fitting auto-firing torpedo launchers inside ships becomes more volume-expensive. Which i dont mind because a good torpedo can decimate awerage ship with one blow.

    Building large pmw's automatically requires use of moving welders earlier when pmw size increases.
    I dont know how many torpedo designs this affects tho.
    This requires use of brains often referred to as ENGINEERING around kswh forums.
    Thos will mostly affect anything larger than 3x3 large grid torpedoes. Are this large torpedoes used often?

    There might be and probably is something i did not think about.

    I personally do not mind the change. I think i see why it was done.
    --- Automerge ---
    As far as i have tested large rocks are unreliable and pretty easy to deflect.
    They also suffer from the same top speed limitation and cannot be guided in any way.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 9
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    DISCLAIMER: I don't agree with the sudden change, but it doesn't particularly affect me.

    While I will agree with you in the sense that I do feel like it may have been a slight CEO push to make this change, I disagree to a certain extent that it was somewhat unfounded: for us veteran players it seems so obvious that the welder is a death area, but the size of that area is not particularly well represented. You can't argue that the range on a welder wasn't somewhat large for what it is, some write it off as gameplay, others as magic future space welders... I personally don't really care which, the point is that I can see why people were probably getting frustrated (somewhat understandably) by being killed a full block away from the welder. Was this alone just cause for the massive change in gears? No, probably not. However what it does represent is the fact they want new players and to some degree retain them. If you had a bunch of new players threatening with bad reviews because of a problem (in there eyes) it sadly only really makes sense to try and do some damage control. Which unfortunately leaves us long term players feeling a bit jaded and upset.

    As far as im aware, one of the staff i think I23I7 brought up the extreme displeasure by the community and I think they're considering either rolling back, or atleast re-increasing the radius some. Trying for a happy medium if one exists perhaps?

    Let's not add pointless fuel to the fire with the broken rotors and piston arguments, they've been broken for a long time, they've put in some more work towards MP stability and some towards physics objects. While atm small grid sub grids are a little bit broken there was a time when in single player you could build reasonably stable, large (in size, not grid) creations with them, When they finally manage to iron out the kinks, then i think they should worry about balancing things like the welder.

    TLDR: Changes are to be expected in an in development game. It sucks, but just grit and bear it for a while
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  6. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

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    463
    Large ship welders now have a weld radius less than ~1.2m. This change cripples myriad workshop creations and negatively effects survival gameplay. Welder walls (e.g: in a 3D printer) now have dead zones not reached by any welder. Welders are no longer a viable defense v.s. mobs (dog attack range is greater than the weld radius).

    Actual solution: let welders turn themselves off if they deal damage to a friendly character. New players aren't creamed but still get the message that safety is a thing in this game.

    Actual solution: this is not a problem. Anyone building PMWs easily has the skills and resources to have earned that capability.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  7. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    oh well...........at least we can still build more wielders and get a large amount of work done quicker versus hand wielding things.

    Sure if anything im sure a modder has quickly made a mod to reverse that.
    not gonna lie I've always wanted a weilder with a massive repair radius to repair an entire ship but appearnly that murders the SIM speed...who'd of guessed

    that is assuming wielders don't cause the object they're building to spazz out and explode in true SE fashion -_-
     
  8. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

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    467
    The welder nerf is a solution in search of a problem. That alone disqualifies it as something necessary and helpful.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
  9. Zoladen Apprentice Engineer

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    116
    I like this thread, but it seems to be in the wrong place. It's part of game play balancing, not necessarily just general discussion. And part of this may sound mean, but it is certainly not meant that way. Hard to put inflection into text sometimes so just read it with imagined smilies everywhere.

    I would just focus on the change itself. Take out any personal feelings about how it affects workshop builds, etc. and look at the nitty-gritty.

    Is the change too much? Why?
    Hasn't specifically affected me that I have noticed yet, but I tend to cram things into small spaces and build minimal things with automation. I can't personally answer if it is too much or not.


    Was the Original fine, or should there be a middle ground? Why?
    I always like middle grounds, but until this affects me, I can't say for sure. My feelings are always go with the two extremes and then tweak until you find the sweet spot.

    Make sense? I guess I also like TLDR versions in regards to this kind of thing. Also if I missed the point I'll shut up and go back to my hole now.
     
  10. admanter Apprentice Engineer

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    151
    Well said, and I quote you for more emphasis than a simple agree.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,945
    Well, Zoladen, by your own admission this doesn't affect you much so you can sit-on-the-fence. But there are a lot of senior players and content creators that it does affect negatively. The crux of the argument is that the reduced range makes a lot of engineered printing either insanely difficult or impossible. The reasoning behind the change is whimsical and solves a problem that no one or very few people were having.

    Grid welders don't weld any faster than the basic hand welder. Where they make up for that is the ability to source components from grid inventory and reach further than the hand welder. Nerfing their range not only destroys the ability to "print" blocks, but also means you have to maneuver your ship into tighter places in order to contact the cubes you want to weld. In a complicated build OR in natural gravity with atmospheres this means having to redesign your ships to get to those blocks or taking a frustrating longer amount of time to perform a job that welders in their previous state made more ergonomic.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    Its a big enough nerf that you cannot fabricate small ships by projector anymore. You've got to do them by hand to make sure you get everything.

    I think this was a mistake. If they don't want new players getting killed by welders, nerf the damage. They're not weapons anyway. But don't nerf what they are meant to do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  13. gordon861 Apprentice Engineer

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    131
    Nanite Factory works well for this.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    I've already posted this prior, but the welder change is the final straw for me. I won't be playing SE for the foreseeable future anymore.

    Nerfing welders doesn't nerf PMWs at all. It just means you have to do more pre-prep to get the same result. IOW it makes an already grindy game with little actual gameplay even more grindy. A large number of my PMW chuckers rely on external ships to do the welding anyway, conventional style -simply because it's overall more efficient and compact and I'm guanranteed a mission kill against any reasonable target with a single payload anyway. This capability isn't remotely nerfed.

    Since, practically speaking people aren't even building these things and flinging them against each other because the multiplayer metagame basically sucks and discourages long term, large scale building because of AFK smurfing. It doesn't even fucking matter.

    There is no large large, large infrastructure MP with which to judge what is balanced or not because people are not doing large scale PVP in a survival enviroment. There is no PVP metagame to speak of. We are mostly doing copy-pasta creative battles where welders are inherently OP because of instant speed and no comp draw.

    There is no large scale PVE battles because the game doesn't support them.

    In short, there isn't anything to balance.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  15. SF-1 Raptor Junior Engineer

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    740
    My PMWs are hanger door rods with a gyro tip, so not really something that messes me up. Also don't play much survival.
     
  16. Lurch84 Trainee Engineer

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    63
    Personally I don't build PMW at all really (not my thing), but I do try, and like to use, a lot of automated repair and production for my ships and drones as I play 1x survival 90% of the time.

    This effectively killed that completely, so much so I've given up vanilla tools as not fit for purpose and gone for one of the mods to 'fix' it. As I mentioned in the patch notes, you have to place then weld each block one at a time basically now, or grind down half of something you've built from a projector as a couple things got missed in the middle... Both situations that are tedious and infuriating at best.

    Best solution? No idea other than reverting (or an AOE slider as someone else has mentioned), but a nice thing would be if their AOE was in front of the prongs so things didn't place amongst them and detonate 1 second later.
     
  17. Veritas Apprentice Engineer

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    143
    Pistons be funny even in single player recently, and I usually have very few problems with them. In regards to welders, it's silly that you invest in something with less range (potentially) than a hand tool...
     
  18. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
  19. elowan Trainee Engineer

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    15
    The worst part is if you read those threads, people are complaining about incorrect / bugged / nonsensical kill bounds for the welders, e.g. welders killing you several yards behind them, or the kill area being blocks or more beyond the weld area. I haven't seen anybody actually saying "gee, this thing killed me, so confusing, make the weld AND kill area smaller." Having the weld area be smaller than the actual block area (so that welders don't tile correctly, and leave dead zones) strikes me as madness. If you're going to have magical remote welders (which for the sake of functional gameplay, I personally want!), it makes no sense to make them only useful for manual mobile-welder use.

    As far as PMW go, IMO there's a good reason you see high mass / low cost accelerated objects used as weapons in so many hard-sci-fi stories -- once you accept readily available space-based propulsion / navigation and energy systems, it's logical, or even plausible (think accelerating small asteroids at planets / static bases). PMWs like torpedoes and high mass variants are a pretty real-world-plausible problem for large, mostly static or very slow infrastructure. IMO this is SE being /more/ realistic, not less.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  20. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,945

    All of them say: I got out of my cockpit when surrounded by welders... and I died'ed.

    1. Don't build welders so close to your cockpit.
    2. Turn off your welders before exiting the cockpit.
    3. Sensors don't react fast enough to save you from 1 or 2. Shame.
    4. Think before you get out of the cockpit. Most people have welders on their toolbar... hint.. if "on" then don't get out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  21. elowan Trainee Engineer

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    15
    Yeah, I'd have to agree. I feel like my entire experience with welder deaths can be summed up with my first death to them, within a few days of installing SE: step outside primitive welding ship to look at something , wander too close to front, get burned up, and think "whoops, I guess I should turn those off when I go outside."

    How can they be a serious source of player difficulty when grouping / hotbarring them for easy toggling is a matter of moments?
     
  22. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    The only thing in this game is grind.

    That's the entire game.

    •Grind to get small mining ship
    •Grind to get big mining ship
    •Unlimited resources
    • Welcome to Creative mode cos there's nothing to do with your ship
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  23. Lothos Apprentice Engineer

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    314
    FWIW, this is why I always used a modded welder. I didn't think the range was long enough on the vanilla welders and it made welding large ships difficult when using a utility ship if you were going back and adding blocks to be welded deeper within the ship.
     
  24. Zoladen Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    116

    That would be it then. I haven't played with building small grids yet with ship welders since the change. I'm currently at work, so I won't be able to look until tonight likely. One thing I can comment on right now that you mentioned is the speed. I was always curious why the ship welders didn't weld faster than the hand welder. I get that they could do multiple blocks at once, but if anything I just felt they should have a higher weld speed that was split across how many blocks that they were actively welding at any one time.

    I do also agree that if the change was only for people getting killed by it, and not balance reasons, that it should never have been made. Did someone mention that specifically as a reason? I can't recall seeing it, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. I'll check the release notes (In checking, I also disagree that this is a fix of any kind. I think that word gets used too easily). I mean there is a reason the tips light up red when they are active. Do they need to flash and blare alarms now too? Because if they do, you can already make that happen by something as simple as grouping them with a light block, colored red, set to flash, and then just turn them on with the welder.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  25. gchristopher Apprentice Engineer

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    132
    Can someone say exactly what the welding radius was before and after the recent change? I'm having a hard time finding the numbers.
     
  26. Matterom Trainee Engineer

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    22
    Roughly 6 Meters But it was nerfed before i believe to about 3 Meters

    This is from the tip.
     
  27. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

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    228
    I think it was based on the grid size as well. When trying to weld a large block 3m sounds about right. For a small I could never weld more than 3 blocks from the tip so i think it was in the 1.5-2m range.
     
  28. Elfi Wolfe Apprentice Engineer

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    498
    1.5m radius from tip. So if you have put 5x5x5 small in front of large grid. It will get the first 2 layers and then 21 of the 3rd layer.
    If you have 2 large grid welders facing a empty large block filled with 5x5x5 small blocks, then 121 of the 125 small blocks will be welded. With the middle block of each edge that does not face a welder not welded.

    Right now you can make player made missile of size 1.5m x 1.5m x any length.
     
  29. gchristopher Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    132
    Okay, by carefully fiddling with relative placement of the grids, I was able to get that in 1.172.

    So, if radius is measured from the center of the tip of of the welder to the nearest corner of the block to be welded, then the radius has to be at least 1.5m to get the corner block on the 2nd layer, and because it doesn't get the corner block on the 3rd layer then the radius must be less than 1.6m?

    This means that a carefully aligned welder wall, moving along a single axis via piston, should just barely be able to build a small grid without missing any blocks? (Using pistons/rotors/LG/whatever to achieve alignment and assuming the small grid buildable in order along a single axis?)

    Last time I played, (2015), I wouldn't consider pistons/rotors for any system, but things have been working pretty well on a DS for me the last few weeks.

    Also, I guess that means that the welder nerf has been applied to 1.72 stable ahead of the patch notes?
     
  30. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Welder walls are server-cancer.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
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