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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    If we can just assume for this discussion that the Multiplayer Update pleases everyone all around enough so that the Survival Update can take the top spot. I will admit that there is a lot about SE's Survival Mode that I have not experienced. I'm curious to know what has to be fixed or no more SE for you.

    Or at least if X doesn't happen you will be very disappointed.

    My understanding is that Space Engineers is not a survival game, but is instead a sandbox game with survival features. You may just want the sandbox to have more and/or better survival features, or you may want the game itself to be less sandbox and more survival. When it comes to Survival Mode I only wish they had not called it Survival Mode :D

    So, what does the Survival Update need to save SE?
     
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  2. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    Will there be a survival update? I thought that was taken off the table.
     
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  3. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Malware Master Engineer

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    Where did you get that idea? Yes there will be. But I doubt it will be a gamechanger.
     
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  5. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    I am given the impression that the multiplayer update will be the last big update.

    The survival update teaser had two blocks to be added and some ore changes (trying not to say too much), but it sounded like that was not going to be implemented.
     
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  6. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    My impression is that the Survival Update is... highly anticipated. I'm just curious as to what people are anticipating. To be honest, I'm not even sure what a "survival update" would consist of.

    I am completely unfamiliar with how this AMA thing works. I imagine I will need to make yet another account in yet another venue in order to ask a question, with no greater expectation I will get a response. It does not appear, from what I have seen on the site, that their method of operation will be any better at discouraging frivolous questions or getting answers to the hard ones. In fact, I'm not even sure this event was meant for just us curious folk. In any event, I'm sure the purpose is not to find out what we want but rather to provide Marek with another avenue to tell us what's going on and maybe squelch some rumors. Here, I am asking people that frequent this forum what they think should happen. I don't expect anyone from Keen will clear up any mysteries here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  7. Malware Master Engineer

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    @ShadedMJ It's not the last big update. The survival update is not cancelled and I would imagine the new blocks are not cancelled either.


    Just postponed.


    I have always expected the gameplay update to be one of the last ones, because it makes sense to know what you have to work with before creating gameplay around it.


    I used to expect the gameplay update to be rather significant too, that I'm not so sure about any more. But I am sure that there will be one. That's what I have gotten from the various videos, interviews and conversations with devs.
    --- Automerge ---
    It is... and people are expecting a complete change of the game. They're expecting full survival gameplay, and not - as you say - just survival elements. Tbh no matter what Keen does here there will be fire and brimstone... and honestly not by any fault of Keen's, but by people who refuse to listen to what has been said but keep building on their own expectations. Me, I used to be one of those who expected "more"... but I was always trying to pay attention. So while I'm a little disappointed that the game won't be what I wanted it to be, I won't be tearing down Keen's doors because of it.

    The absolute minimum I would expect from the survival? The absolute minimum that will keep me from leaving the game? Just one thing. For pressurization to become a 1st class citizen of the game, properly integrated into the game. That is the minimum survival element I would expect.

    I could spend much time writing about what I would like to see, but I won't bother. I don't believe much of it will ever happen anyway. I know there are certain people at Keen who shares my dreams. All I can do is hope they're able to convince the higher-ups that at least some of it is worth it.
     
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  8. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Wait... gameplay update?

    New Thread: << DETECTED >>

    Thank you. This is the sort of response I was looking for.

     
  9. Malware Master Engineer

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    Yes, to me "survival update" = "gameplay update".
     
  10. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    My reasonable expectations:
    - The teased wind turbine, hydrogen engine, and basic assembler, plus perhaps an unteased block of ambiguous purpose
    - Players spawn on planets with a parachuting life pod that has basic/limited blocks, unlike the current deluxe lander or complete bases
    - Ores and blocks are rebalanced/tweaked to make the escape to space require more steps and intermediate use of the new power sources
    - Dark ore spots are removed
    - The update focuses on early/new game, and doesn't change the late game from what we have now
     
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  11. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    My reasonable expectations:

    -Liquid wate.... wait, reasonable:

    *More options to the medical bay that can be put into world settings. Especially: spawning at the nearest medical bay / spawning at the furthest medical bay, cooldown of medical bay, usage of resources for respawning
    *Rebalancing of block recipes, ore yield, ore distribution and especially energy efficiency of blocks (I am looking at you, uranium consumption rate)
    *introduction of the teased blocks
    *decay of unpowered grids as world setting
    *new drones and cargo ships, maybe with better AI
    *material loss when breaking down components and blocks

    And as a bonus: Things that I think are definitely out of the question but would make a reasonable addition to survival gameplay:

    *introduction of wear and tear for mechanical blocks that will not destroy the block but diminish their efficiency(namely atmospheric thrusters, assemblers, refineries)
    *introduction of new resources, namely Aluminium, Titanium and Fluorine, Chlorine and Carbon as well as rare-earth elements
    *introduction of suit types
    *introduction of medical reconstruction: You will need to build your treebeard copy in advance and have it stored in a medical bay if you want to respawn - loss of energy means loss of copy. Possibly copy degradation
    *Introduction of heat in grids, taking water evaporation, atmosphere venting and possibly surface size into account, increasing energy comsumption and decreasing system efficiency as heat rises.
     
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  12. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    Those are pretty much my list too. Mods can cover a couple of those in the meantime for me: My minimal spawnship is exactly that: a parachuting life pod with minimal blocks you are totally reliant on the unidentified signals for parts and the Better Stone mod removes the spots on the surface. The thing is all this does for me is extend the time required before I get into space. As soon as I am at the level of where I would be with the default lander interest goes downhill.

    My next couple of challenges are to run with the jetpack disabled so I have to consider access when building, and a world without Uranium. There was a rebalancing mod I saw a while ago that changed a bunch of material requirements round which made things a bit more difficult but I can't remember which one it was. One of the things it did was give computer components a gold requirement.
     
  13. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    My only hope is (and even here i think it will fail ..) that the already inbuild game mechanic works flawless on multiplayer server ...
    No "DeSyncs" - no invisible trees or blocks, no power/energy/Hydro/oxy from nothing , no "spontan explosions" (the new wheel system is nice, but pointless is the cars now explode on its own ..) , no inventory glitches , no "not working/broken" UI elements for modders (the flaps mod is an good example ..) ...
    Simply that the ACTUAL system work on DS for all clients....
    But i realy cant belive it.
    And no - better simspeed "is" nice - but was (except extrem situations) never an big problem for survival - it was an problem for PvP centric game play ...

    Regards
     
  14. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Are there any reviews of the Space Engineer's open testing worlds? Like on Youtube? I don't have the time to be a part of the testing and the hours are usually a little weird for me. But I'm very interested in what it seems like was fixed, upgraded, and what still needs to be done.
     
  15. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Marek's non-answering answer talents aside, there is definitely no survival changes for this MP patch, but the Survival work done afterwards will likely emphasize things that challenge the building aspects of the game.

    To me, this makes me think 'environmental threats':
    Improved drone / npc threats (AI specifically)
    Wildlife that isn't embarrassing and that might also be a danger to vehicles (Godzilla anyone?)
    Hazardous environments*

    * This one is up to the imagination, but to me atmospherics/friction damage on reentry, maybe even CoG vs CoThrust/Torque issues, radiation and/or caustic environments.
     
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  16. Spaceman Spiff Apprentice Engineer

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    Popcorn machine.
     
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  17. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    "Unfortunately while all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. ": Babylon 5 -- Ta' lon
     
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  18. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Notice he said, "no reason why these mechanics can't be added in the future version." Slip of the tongue? Translation error? ...commitment?

    There were some other claims made about weapons, which I happen to think is what most people are talking about when they say "survival" and/or "gameplay". I say this because even though the game does appear (at least to me) to provide the most rewarding moments while building, the emphasis of actual gameplay, as observed by me mostly on Twitch, seems to revolve around the polar opposite of building. I'm no different. My ships are not armed now, but if I ever get a server going they will have to be, so I want all that weapon-centric stuff to work, too. I would imagine the "touch" survival is going to get will have mostly PvP enhancements. They also imply (by my reckoning) that mods will be more stable because they're about done messing with the stuff that always changes every other update. Hence the overall hype that more stuff is coming.
     
  19. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    For my hopes, the survival update or gameplay update should be about character survival. In reality, the hardest thing about people going to space is actually keeping us alive up there. Also expanding on the environments to survive in. As for how reasonable these are, "reasonable" can be subjective.

    Literal survival aspects:
    food and water system
    temperature maintenance system
    suit wear and tear and the ability to remove the suit
    radiation
    g force damage (maybe your ships can go from 0-100m/s in half a second but should you be able to survive it?)

    A bigger periodic table:
    The inclusion of carbon, titanium, and aluminium for alternate build options. Nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus for nutrition. Something other than gold for superconductors.
    Other gasses might also be nice like carbon dioxide, methane, and helium could have justifiable as a fuel for certain blocks or just serve as challenges such as cleaning out of your ship's air supply. Helium to fuel medical bays, CO2 to have to scrub from your ship's air supply, and methane to avoid having anything spark near are good examples.

    Weather:
    Storms on planets that make flying or surviving difficult.

    I don't see stone on the periodic table:
    I hope they make asteroids mainly S-type or C-type where the types of stone could be processed to extract silicon or carbon respectively. Also mafic rocks that can be processed for iron and magnesium. I don't mean they should get rid of the normal ore deposits, just that they should make stone more interesting and less of a burden.

    Asteroid placement:
    Options to give planets rings where procedural asteroids are more common. The ability to place an asteroid cluster in creative similarly to placing a planet, where the procedural density is much higher on a gradient denser at the center than the outer edges. Both give places where PvP players could have a more exciting game and PvE players a more scenic place to build.

    Skills/character advancement:
    I don't want a level system specifically, but more of modifier based on what you do. A gradually increasing % bonus to the effectiveness of things you make. Make a lot of thrusters and the ones you make or grind down partially and repair should see a % bonus to power efficiency or thrust. It gives a reason for your first ship not to be your last ship unless you're constantly working on it.
    It also gives the option to specialize for teamwork purposes. With diminishing returns on skill improvement, a specialist in your faction that makes all the reactors or whatever for all the faction's ships is worth having. If everyone can do everything equally as well, there's no reason to have a team crew a single ship together.
    Additionally, it gives a varying quality of the same few blocks instead of requiring tons of alternate blocks.


    I suck at brevity.
     
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  20. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,468

    I think just about everything you've mentioned was requested years ago back when we were in the "cool-feature" stage of development. I think for multiplayer, more tools for people designing server play and scenarios would offer the most bang for the buck.

    More methods for placing and distributing procedural asteroids would be a boon to multi-player games.
    A unified system for NPC grids rather than the piece-meal systems we have now.
    A separate utility program for creating basic mods: i.e. changing the values of blocks, disabling them, etc.
    A separate utility program for turning blueprints into prefabs.
    The ability for NPC programmable blocks to access more information from the game and set/get a Dictionary of string values per player as defined by the programmable block.

    Those are not monumental changes to the game, but would go a long way for US to create scenarios and servers that are interesting and dynamic.

    But I do love the idea of weather on planets... even if it's just wind... a dynamic force vector, perpendicular to the gravity vector, scaled in the definition of a planet, that gets divided by the mass of non-static grids and then applied to the grids.
     
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  21. Spaceman Spiff Apprentice Engineer

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    Zeenamis...you know...zombie hoards. Oh, wait...we've got those in mods.
     
  22. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    Didn't someone at keen mention a change to the power grid? Having your thrusters fail because your refinery is hogging all the power is not good. Being able to separate these into power groups would help.

    Being able to set which block groups your power sources are allowed to supply.
    Center of Thrust. (Grid could automatically compensate for bad setups, but your thrusters wouldn't be at full power. No need for overpowered gyros.)
    Learning how to make the high tier stuff (modules, tools, gravity generators, etc.) by exploring/raiding for schematics.
    Building up from a basic escape pod.
    Solar wind hazard. More realistic meteor storm behavior.
    Better hostile AI. Wolves spawn far away from the player and slowly migrate towards them. Pirates parachute bases onto planets.
    Farming algae for medical components, or whatever. (Replaces oxygen farm.)
    Need to radiate heat in space.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
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  23. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,390
    I'd like to see the hunger/thirst thing added. To me it would make "survive" mean something. However, the usual response I get when I bring it up is, "It adds an unnecessary burden to playing the game." Of course, many players believe all that looking for resources and then having the mine them, and then having to run that through another machine before they can make stuff is also an unnecessary burden ;)

    I'm ok with using the mod.
     
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  24. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    To me space engineers has always felt very different from other (survival) games due to one important factor: The player is rather irrelevent, the ships are everything. I like this, the way the player is tiny and insignificant compared to thier creations. Other games you might gear up by getting some better armor and a weapon to equip, not here.

    I don't think hunger or thirst would add much to be honest. Can see it taking away from my preferred way of playing - in space, far from planets.

    As for hunger/thirst making surviving mean something... I don't think this is exactly the case. Sure, it would make it more difficult. But you'd be fighting meters which does not really appeal against. What would really up the game is stuff to survive against. On planets there isn't much that is dangerous especially since wolves and sabroids stopped chewing up metal. Space however, there is... Those cargo ships, intentionally or not, can now spawn on an intercept vector and attack you. Thats a fun challange, because in the early game you can run away in a fit of panic but later you can stand and take them down. More stuff like this! Also, make the Argentavis actually do something. It was origionally an aggresive pirate raider ship and now is less dangerous than wandering military craft.

    I think giving the cargo ships a basic evasion AI (If shot, move randomly and rotate to put turrets on target) would be a massive gamechanger. The Argentavis has shown these ships can run scripts, I doubt it would take long for the clever people at Keen to make the cargo ships do more stuff. The pirate drones already do more than I think would be needed for the cargo ships. Perhaps we'll also get some new ships with functions. Maybe a 'weld the blueprint and I give you stuff, shoot me and I shoot you back' ship. I think that is reasonable to hope for, but I somewhat doubt it will be put in.
     
  25. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Jeez... the very next post. I tell ya, it's almost Pavlovian.

    Playing SE survival mode since air was added has always meant that every few minutes you're going to have to find a medical bay, control seat or passenger seat and sit/stand there for a few seconds, or you'll die. We have played the game that way for years. It's a major difference between survival and creative. No one seems to think having to breath but not having to eat is weird. Having breathing and eating in the same game is like way too much for a player to be expected to handle and yet still have fun. It's not possible to imagine that if you can turn off air in the game that you could also turn off hunger.

    Has there really been nothing else listed here that does not also add some "burden" to playing the game?

    and the only thing that gets called an unnecessary burden is eating. For survival. Something that is in many survival games. It's even in Medieval Engineers. For some reason in that game all of a sudden the burden is necessary.





    As I said, I have the mod.

    **sigh**
     
  26. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    But how satisfying is the solution versus the persistence of the burden?

    Would hunger be a constant bother to eat like Medieval Engineer's food bar? Or are we talking IRL hours?
    Is it solved by building a food production area, and then the mechanic's only purpose is to force you to perform a repetitive task every X minutes?

    Oxygen basically is SE's hunger, and I personally don't think feel the need for another.
     
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  27. Spaceman Spiff Apprentice Engineer

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    You know where this next leads, don't you? We'll need to pee and poop regularly to keep from 'sploding. I'm just saying...
     
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  28. Cyborg_Leopard Trainee Engineer

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    I think realistically we can expect full water simulation, female engineer and ladders.

    JK,JK

    Well for one I hope that wolves/sabroids will have their AI and not just get stuck doing attack animations all day whereever they spawn. Its embarrassing how long its taken that to get fixed.
     
  29. Spaceman Spiff Apprentice Engineer

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    Add Wolfenray's mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1397796981) and you'll soon be running away screaming like a little girl.
     
  30. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    There have been several threads about this over the years, and I'm pretty sure I said in every one of them that it should only be barely intrusive. Way less intrusive than constantly having to replenish your oxygen. I believe the consensus towards the end of the last conversation was that if you ate something like, say, a "space bar" once every "day" you would be fine. If you don't eat at all you will get weaker, but you would not be helpless. We looked it up and found that it's not uncommon for a person to live five days without eating. So it should take some time before lack of food kills you. It's not your primary concern, just another thing to manage along with finding ore and ice. You wouldn't necessarily find yourself running around searching for food to eat any more than you would be running around looking for ice for air. They have wildlife in the game. Why not harvest it for food? In fact, the "hunger and thirst" mod has been resurrected and renamed Hunting and Food Mechanics. The mod supplies both the hunger and the means to process meat and vegetable protein into food packets you store in your backpack and consume just like oxygen bottles. If this were to become standard, Keen would have to provide some sort of food processing block and that's about it. Cyberwolf for lunch, Sabroid for dinner. Makes more sense than getting large steel tubes from them. If you have wolves/sabroids turned on, that means you have hunger turned on. If you don't want one, you probably don't want either. I don't see it having any effect on performance, but what do I know? I do know that they're going to throw something into the game, and whatever it is there will be a mod out the next day to turn it off :woot: If I had to choose between hunger and the hydrogen generator block they teased I would prefer hunger. We're probably going to get the generator, though.
    --- Automerge ---
    Forgot to mention suit you're forced to wear all the time processes waste. Whatever is left goes wherever refinery waste goes. Some other dimension, apparently.