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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    670
    I would hate grind to learn. I don't want to put down your idea, it's just I want it to be known
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    I would love actually having to encounter certain blocks to be able to duplicate them. Would finally give some reason to exploration.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  3. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    @Malware +1. Grind to learn also causes many problems that require you to engineer around a needed block that you don't have. I wouldn't advise it for new players, but for those of us that have made countless variations of tool ships and miners, now you have to rethink your designs totally based on the current limitations.

    Moral: don't knock it till you've tried it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    535
    Need a proof of concept? Look no further than the Escape from Mars scenario.
     
  5. Peter Pinecone Trainee Engineer

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    Survival would be fun, but... MINI-SCENARIOS! Like flying from earth to mars, with limited resources, limited blocks, and one hydrogen tank, without parachute! You crashed ship but managed to survive? Yap, it doesnt count!

    Such minigames right now are (almost) effortless to create, KSF have to create few precursors of such scenarios and (maybe) possibility of selected blocks disabling in menu, like blacklist in advanced settings
     
  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Peter Pinecone When we speak of survival, we really speak of gameplay mechanics. Those mechanics will only make such scenarios better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  7. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    459
    Yeah, I was just testing a starter Lifeboat potato. I designed it to be a small as I could make a large grid, and still have room for at least 4 people. It only has 1 hydrogen thruster and I made the tragic decision to land on the moon.

    My landing was not as soft as I would have liked. Climbing out of the wreckage and surveying the damage, I immediately noticed the only battery had been destroyed. There are parts in storage for a Solar panel and medbay so I carefully went to work grinding down the wreckage and constructing the base basics. To my dismay, I discovered I had insufficient metal grids because the heavy armour on the bottom of the Lifeboat had all been damaged to the point the grids were scrap.

    "No medbay. That's going to be a problem. Oh? here's another one. My suit is running out of power."

    I quickly slap down a passenger seat, rotor with small head and a solar panel and start welding it up. Watching my voltage drop quickly to about 3%.

    "Oh good, just in time!"

    I sit in the passenger seat and nothing happens. Turns out the panel didn't have enough power to recharge the suit. I had to un-brake the rotor, and spin the panel direction with my jetpack towards the sun (because the rotor was unfinished). Finally my suit started charging. Now to make a shelter.

    With a medbay an impossibility currently, I decided the base basics should be an arc furnace, assembler, cryobay, and 02/H2 generator. Power was a severe problem though. You need a couple solar panels just to run basic production blocks and I didn't have them. Without enough power to run the arc furnace, I couldn't process the scrap, or refine Co to make the medbay. Assemblers were even worse. I was stumped.

    I was in the middle of welding up an SOS beacon and timerblock (to divide power between it and the 02/h2 gen and cryobay) when it hit me: Grind down the parts for power efficiency modules, attach them to the assembler, disassemble the glass in the wreckage and make more solar cells. This was a challenge. Even with power efficiency modules, I had to babysit the solar panel to make sure it was max power or the base would brown out, which threw off the aim of the panel/rotor, which meant I had to shut off the assembler, re-aim the solar panel, and try again. I gave up and dismantled a medbay component and made power cells instead.

    Once I had a battery, things became so much easier. Sure it would drain quickly, but at least I could refine things, and breathe/recharge bottles without having to shut things off. I easily found nickel, cobalt and iron nearby with my hand drill, and the rest is just the inevitability of the current game state.

    Imagine how much more difficult this would have been without any batteries at all? With no medbay do I dare risk attacking an NPC to grind down it's blocks? This all took about two hours before I had a medbay up and running, and it was intense. Surveying damage and evaluating my situation (without having it, and the basics handed to me), all the new problems (I don't think I've used power efficiency modules for at least a year).

    That is what survival means to me.

    Once you have medbays and basic infrastructure, the rest is either Creative mode with a timesink, or a competition between other players.

    Side note: I think I will blueprint that base without the medbay or power efficiency modules finished, and with a dead engineer sitting next to the assembler and use it as flair for EEM when it works better.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
  8. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    This is exactly right. And all of this tech tree/survival trimmings (food, water, etc) wont change that. They just mean you need to build far more infrastructure to get to the same dead-end point where the game becomes lego vanity projects with a limited box of lego.

    This game desperately needs some real, integrated PVE.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    Uh I am sorry if this is blatantly obvious to you, but what exactly is this "real, integrated PVE" silver bullet that could possibly "revive" this game and doesn't fall into this "semi-creative" state eventually?

    From what I am guessing is that the PvE you are talking about is something really hazardous, such as a large meteor strike that could blow infrastructures into bits, or a swarm of pirates/sabiroids in steroids that could munch through your battleship and eat your flesh for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    The problem is still when you reach to the point where you have abundant fundings to construct a large enough fleet/infrastructure, you will still punch through all that PvE stuff making them essentially a non-hazard, and you will still get back to this creative mode with time sink condition. Really large meteors? Send in missiles or Kamikaze drones and blow that into bits. Deadly sabiroids? A mountain of turrets and you will have sabiroids for today's breakfast. Pirates? A few ships and the pirate becomes a running joke itself. It's just exactly the same situation as those tech trees.

    What exactly should be done is a more combat-orientated, light PvP scenario, with probably some restrictions in building (such as a defined block limit, no certain weapons or thrusters etc) but less risks or consequences in building, such that even when a ship is lost it will not be a devastating blow to the victim, ie exactly what a sandbox game like Gary's Mod and the like was meant to be. Add a server reset and scenario changes in a tight enough manner and everybody will be kept busy enough while having fun duking the hell out.

    With PvE there will still be limits that cannot be overcome, but with a dynamic playerbase and regulated PvP there are virtually no limits unless everybody got bored and the server team can't figure out anything else.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    459
    That sounds more like the role of Creative to me. What makes Survival interesting is the constraints and pressures it puts on you. Once you have so many resources and grids that you can throw things at problems to make them go away you've won the game. Getting to this point should be as difficult as possible in Survival, especially when you consider the resource demands you begin putting on servers and to what end? Keep futzing with no real challenges? Lord your might over those still struggling?
     
  11. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    When I said "less consequences", I do not mean "completely no risks to the point you can just pump a new ship in no time" but more like "You will still be left with something, but reconstruction and fuel refining and loading will take time, and you still have to harvest for stuff and compete at the same time" sort of less consequences. This makes battle still sufficiently costly so people still have to regulate fuel and ammo (which is impossible in survival) and pull out if irreparable damage/complete loss of ship is imminent.

    The way a server enforces this is through the use of King of the hill type of gameplay so that while disabling enemy ships is still important, the topmost priority is to drive them off the hill and secure points, as well as no base rape (which is the source of most problems in SE PvP) whatsoever. Extremely massive ships will still cost millions to build and just to move around, and more importantly costs a lot of time to build even with mods, so that resource management and sensible designs are still playing a large roll in this sort of PvP survival.
     
  12. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,065
    I don't think of SE as having a "win condition". I can't tell you how many times I have read people say that they believe they "beat the game" because they managed to build something to get them into space after having crashed on some planet. These people claim that they have "done everything there is to do" and blame Keen for making such an easy game to win.

    Others feel that once they reach the point where they no longer need to panic about resources and can handle the game's antagonists with confidence, there couldn't possibly be any other goals and the solution is to start over. There are so many people that spend months building an invincible fleet, knowing full well that they will never encounter a similar fleet.

    I tend to take a more "realistic" approach to playing SE in that I can't imagine in real life that a space engineer's worries would be over once their base was made invincible and their fleet had reached epic proportions. I suspect one of two things to be common once humans head out to space in numbers. One is that people will claim territories and attempt to control everything that happens within their borders. The other thing would be humans that go into "Star Trek" mode and continue to boldly go where no one has gone before.

    There's a third one, but you folks would probably never go for it.

    The first group requires the unpredictability of other actual humans as antagonists. The other humans don't actually have to play as humans in the game, although SE does not seem to be the type of game that needs sentient aliens that have mastered space travel solely to eradicate any other sentient life they find. More likely it would be colonists will tire of working their butts off supplying a home system that takes them for granted. Homeworld technological advantage vs colonial ingenuity is always a good starting point for conflict, for those that seek conflict as a reason to play.

    The second group needs to reasonably expect that their exploration efforts will be rewarded in some way. Planets with unusual characteristics and/or interesting/valuable archaeological assets might keep this group playing, at least until they stop exploring and turn into group one.

    I've built a giant ship and a fleet to serve it. I don't consider myself having finished playing SE due to a lack of challenges, nor do I believe my fleet can meet any challenge. A competent crew is the only thing that makes space truly survivable.

    Interacting with other players is what makes playing in a sandbox the most fun.
    --- Automerge ---
    I didn't even know it was possible to double post like that :?
     
  13. PazDim Trainee Engineer

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    17
    Sorry if this has already been written. A few ideas:
    1. It is necessary to add the possibility of fine-tuning the ore. On the planets, the ore lies in thin layers, but on the asteroids there are many ores. It is necessary to add the ability to adjust the frequency of deposits, their size and shape. Both for planets and for asteroids. Someone wants to mine in space, someone wants to dig a planet. To ensure the possibility of survival, it is necessary to leave small deposits near the surface of the planets (or asteroids, if the player decided to start playing in space).
    2. Correction of the ratio of ore. For example, now uranium is very cheap. Because of this, solar energy (and, in the future, wind power) is not used. I saw a mod that left uranium only on Alien planet. I would like to be able to tune the world.
    3. Perhaps this is nonsense. Technology tree, optional. I was just playing at the Factorio. I know that SE is a sandbox. But blocking most of the blocks at the beginning of the game will add the need to use solutions that were not previously considered. For example, the use of machines instead of aircraft, the use of solar cells instead of a nuclear reactor.
    4. Hostile NPCs. Wolves and spiders. Now it's broken. Usually they appear next to the player and just run to him. I would like to see a hostile environment (NPC spawns? Night sieges?).
     
  14. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    459
    To be clear, I meant winning that scenario, not done with SE totally.

    At this point in the scenario you have won and are just futzing because you're retired, or not married, or just want to take one thing you built, make motor noises carry it over with your hand to something else you built and make a big "brkrrsssshhhh" noise. This can be done in Creative much easier, repeatedly, and would be less of a time sink.

    More importantly, it makes you feel like you didn't waste your time making useless things.

    Regardless, players do what they want and all the power to them (in SP).

    I agree some sort of perpetual novelty and challenges would benefit survival mode. I do think it's a tall order for a CO that thinks of this game as an electronic Lego equivalent. Frankly at this point, I think what we're reasonably going to get is what we have, but just functional enough that the Professional Reviewers won't laugh it into the ground. And ladders.
     
  15. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,477
    Just another reminder for popcorn machines... :munch:
     
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  16. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    100
    You are dangerously close to drifting towards attacking him personally, I'd stop doing that asap if I were you.

    The problem about the "space lego" thing claimed by Marek himself is that this game really is just "space lego" - said survival wasn't even a thing before in this game, and what are you realistically expecting from this game in survival, while not being ridiculously out of context with this game? Beat some super bad alien boss or defeating the Elite Four and the Champion?

    You will need defined goals, but even if all that shit people suggested were actually doable and implemented, it still comes back one way another - there really isn't much to do in this game at some point, and all that addition merely increases the grinding process rather than being actual "gameplay content". In Pokemon you finished all the quests and that's it, what was left to do is either fight in endless battle trees/facilities to ask for being kicked off from the facility with some BS RNG roll, and breed pokemon and SL for perfect legendaries, and still finally end up doing the same grind and pretty much nothing else. You unlocked all the tech trees, built a super battleship that absolutely shits on every alien or pirate ship whatsoever, and had so much fuel and resources you can just toss a full ship into deep space and still be able to build the same thing all over. It's just the game is shallow at the point where people consider "getting out of planets" as the major thing.

    Or alternatively, go online or even tournament matches globally if you are in Pokemon, which really is what this game should (and had) focused on in the future. With some degree of intensive enough PvP you will have to be smart about your designs such as not being extremely big and resource intensive to construct and fuel and to actually care about ammo, of which none of that matters in Creative. You can easily build ships that could clog a server up to a crawl and still make it stupendously fast in creative, but in Survival you will have to be really rich to do that, especially when under a good degree of competition.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  17. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Don't project your prejudice onto my words thank you. Valid reasons for having time to waste are not negative reasons. You assume that.

    Also, Marek's a big boy and can speak for himself just fine. He even has minions to enforce his will. You are not one of them. I would remember that ASAP if I were you.

    Finally, making this about PVP as the solution is not one a LOT of people will like.
     
  18. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    Unfortunately I remember Stardriver's previous toy train on a track statement about SE. With your overly specific "valid reasons" being coming out from seemingly nowhere in this thread, I do think my judgement on this one is not prejudice but actually a credible conclusion.

    SE is pretty much a sandbox (or what this game was originally labelled as) and sandbox needs interaction between those that are in the sandbox. You sure can add even more stuff into the sandbox but there is still as much stuff you could possibly do within the sandbox alone or with very few people, before you hit the limbo of "what the heck am I supposed to do with all this sand?".

    The problem about this "boring semi survival" of SE isn't really because of the overabundance of materials (although it surely plays a large part in it), but there isn't much that could give people the activity/thrill in doing these things, with AI or natural disasters they still can be stopped cold like very easily even with the corruption mod when you are big enough. Unless you thought up a way of doing so, I cannot picture a way that could make vanilla SE Survival not becoming a hellhole for new players (say being hunted by corruption drones when you are in a helpless respawn ship) or being a boredom to developed players, since you can't really lay out that kind of "confined map progression" like most single player games do in SE unless in a scenario......but that doesn't really count as survival vanilla, due to the specific nature of this game. Even in games like GTA you will still have problems finding what to do after you defeated the singleplayer game other than just wreak havoc.

    My solution to this is really just introduce some healthy, non-toxic minigame-style PvP in the form of a competition that does not involve complete decimation of the enemy. Not perfect? Sure it is, but there isn't that much you can do either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  19. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Have you ever tried to operate a large fleet in SE? Things go south extremely quickly if you have multiple pressures being exerted on you. Currently the only way for that to happen is via PVP. It could easily be done in PVE with competent AI threats/opportunities.

    It takes a long fucking time; 20+ hours to build up in survival as the game is currently in 1X if you don't boostrap with EZ pirates. If you added real PVE you could extend the campaign life to 100+ hours, which would make it on par with games with serious staying power for a given instance/campaign. You could also workshop integrate thing so that opposing enemies and fleets were chosen from ship sets provided by the community (reassembly does this and it is fucking awesome). So that replayability is enhanced and you're never quite sure who/what/where is going to show up.

    Every single game has a lifecycle until you reach something of a win condition, you're basically making up unrealistic goal posts if you think anything will make the game live forever. SE doesn't have a big enough player base and a luxurious enough server population to survive on PVP. Also a lot of people, including ones who do multiplayer with friends, want a PVP experience, so of the 3000-6000 players, only a fraction of those will do PVP.
     
  20. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,065
    I started this thread because Keen stated that they were going to turn the majority of their attention to providing/improving the "survival (gameplay) elements" of the game. I did not get the impression from any of their communications that they intend to make SE anything other than a sandbox game. A lot of people would like to see SE become an actual "game" and God knows the potential is there. The problem is that it started as a single player sandbox game and the way the code was written limits their ability to make it a viable multiplayer "game". It looks to me like perhaps the real problem is that most people can't figure out how to "play" a sandbox game. They say they can only play so much before there is no longer a "point". Thing about sandbox play is that there is never a "point". In any given sandbox with more than one person "playing" there may or may not be a common goal, but everyone has their own "point" for playing. This leads to a level of unpredictability that tends to lengthen the amount of time it takes to reach that point of mutually agreed boredom. This is why fixing multiplayer was so important. As a single player game SE would take even the most engaged player only so far. I believe it is a fair assessment that the current Space Engineers product will not meet its full potential because they have to make too many compromises with the code in order to please everyone that has their attention. They clearly need to write a game that will do a better job of giving us what we ourselves are just finding out that we want. It looks to me that Keen still has some things they want to try and they believe they can still surprise us. I have no doubt that they can surprise us, yet I still think we'll get the hydrogen generator because it looks cool instead of the wind turbine because it makes better sense for a survival situation. This thread is an attempt to have the community nudge Keen into the most acceptable compromise when it comes to features they will provide. We will have to accept that most of what we actually want will only appear in the game as mods. Still, there are some things that could go into the game that will make it more intuitive for the uninitiated, more helpful overall, and more challenging for the jaded. Thing about a multiple-page thread like this one is that it's best not to read all the previous posts and just say what you think would be reasonable for a survival update. It's ok if its been said before. If its been said twenty times then Keen should get the hint ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    459
    If the purpose of this thread is to give suggestions for Keen to consider, then https://support.keenswh.com/ is a better way to do it. Make a suggestion and have people vote on it. It won't be looked at here.
     
  22. Darkheyr Trainee Engineer

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    Even more industrial / logistics complexity could go a long way to prolong a game. Anyone who has ever played Factorio knows how many hours those things can soak even when you're not worrying about any hostile aliens angered by your perfectly clean and green coal-powered ore smelters.

    More toys for the sandbox always help.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,065
    I agree that the support thread is the best place to make a suggestion. I think this thread is a better place to discuss said suggestions and perhaps in the process remove some of the noise from the support thread. Although I have probably done so myself, I don't think an official suggestion thread should contain any detracting posts. You make a suggestion, and then it gets votes or not. Arguments for and against make the thread too long. Here Keen can find out how the community feels about a suggestion, and can compare that with their own opinions about a suggestion in the official thread.

    Threads that show a lot of activity, like Malware's pressurization thread, do get someone at Keen's attention.
     
  24. Omnifarious Trainee Engineer

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    49
    Kinda like in Empyrion, you have to go through the tech tree first, so you're gonna have to start out on the ground with a basic vehicle, work your way up to med bays, storage, fridges, etc, until you get the materials and research to create basic components for small vessels, and so and so forth until you can research and fund capital vessels. Which require exploration. Like your starting world, is full of iron, copper, etc, basic stuff, but you need to reach more hazardous worlds/or different worlds/moons for different materials. Like cobalt, and uranium. Like take Empyrion for example, and apply it to SE. Imagine if there was a warp core specific fuel/material it required, which was extremely rare on the starting earth-like, but the moon was full of the crystals you need for warp core material/fuel. You now have a reason to go to that barren white ball. Even have a reason to create bases there. Minning facilities, corporation roleplay, etc. It's why I've been liking Empyrion so much, it has that survival element that SE doesn't. I was fun exploring for a very specific class 5 world for easy access to certain materials. Only problem was that, that world I had found, was completely infested, irradiated, and often covered in giant dust/gas storms and A.I. patrols of large planetary capital vessels. I made a heavy combat suit comprised entirely of armor and radiation resistance upgrades that day, lol. Unfortunately that planet was also a greenhouse from the gas. Temp got up to 70c during the day.
     
  25. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,065
    Doing so will ruin your health. Emptyon bears a lot of striking similarities (uncannily similar) to Space Engineers, and those developers have, on many occasions, rushed to include survival mechanics before they appeared in SE, even if they were never going to be included in SE. You see, SE was never intended to be anything more than a sandbox game. Empryoff attempts to be the survival game that Space Engineers wasn't even trying to be. There is no current attempt to try to turn SE into a survival game. What Keen seems to be willing to do is to introduce more "survival" features/mechanics in order to make the game more appealing to a wider audience, but it is not attempting to become anything more than a sandbox game with no pre-determined goals. "Sandbox" means the players determine their own goals, what the "win conditions" are, and the level of difficulty. No matter what else happens, this version of SE will always suck as a survival game, because it isn't one. Comparing it to an actual survival game is unfair.

    Because SE is not a survival game, I don't see the need for a tech-tree. I think we can conclude that all Space Engineers know how to assemble things from blueprints, and really they have equipment that does all the thinking anyway e.g. you place a block and your "welder" assembles it. Doesn't matter if the block is an armor block or a nuclear reactor. I know that for a lot of people "survival" means the game is painfully hard in the beginning and accomplishing tasks gives you access to easier solutions. That's great for games that give points and keep score. SE does neither of these things. You don't need to spend hours playing in order to gain the ability to make something. You can mod the game to insert hurdles if that's what you and/or your friends want, but that's not likely to be a core feature of the current game. I personally prefer it this way since I can dispense with a lot of needless building just to prove I can, and I can get right to doing the stuff I bought the game for in the first place. There is no need to play SE from the standpoint of "starting with nothing". I have always played from the standpoint that I'm way past "survival", well beyond "succeeding", and well into "prospering". "Survival" in SE is a term used by players and adopted by Keen for the sake of simplicity. it is one of many ways to play the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    Survival is the single most impactful feature in terms of attracting/retaining players. Survival doesn't imply predetermined goals, it just gives you things you actually need to deal with, as opposed to making up head-canon.

    I do entirely agree that tech trees are a terrible idea. All they do is tediously draw out what is still a very limited mode.
     
  27. Malware Master Engineer

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    I disagree. A well made tech tree is a great way to ease in new players to the game.
     
  28. Elfi Wolfe Apprentice Engineer

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    exploration of new ships is always fun in survival mode.
     
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  29. PazDim Trainee Engineer

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    17
    The mod is found. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1206320070 Without a graphical interface, but implements a technology tree. Soon I will begin to play in peace with this mod and with the resources distributed on different planets. I will tell you about my impressions. At the moment there is no gameplay without changes in survival. It is enough to build a station in an asteroid and find deposits of all resources. Built ships have nowhere to use, there is no need to land on the planet. Restriction of the player in the ability to build blocks, the competent allocation of resources, the recreation of a hostile environment is the key to an interesting survival. When the NPCs were added, Argententis besieged my asteroid. It was really survival - it was necessary to extract resources under fire, it was necessary to build and improve a warship to combat the NPC. There was a purpose.
     
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  30. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    459
    What's the name of this thread again? Hunh

    I do agree with both Malware and Stardriver here in that Tech Trees are excellent tools for training newcomers, but this game lacks the complexity to use one atm.
    As it stands Grind to Learn coupled with resource limitations is a more entertaining and plausible system, but I hope this changes.
     
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