Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    Yeah, I've always wondered about refinery byproducts. Sort of like my poop doesn't smell.
     
  2. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    647
    I've always thought that it had some kind of reprocessor to turn poop into jummy space bars.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    254
    ..and understanding is a three edged sword...


    -Morloc
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,704
    A few months ago, I suggested something like this. Simply having power channels... like up to sixteen of them 00 to FF. Simply set the block's input (and or output) to the channel desired and done.
     
  5. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    Well, since we're going to consider everything under the sun except hunger :mad: I will say that in the "new blocks" category I would really like to see Digi's conveyor hinge added as standard, or something like it. I also came across this block, which is part of a modpack.
    [​IMG]
    I don't think it's powered, but I'm not sure. It doesn't convey anything but, think of the possibilities a block like this gives you. It wouldn't have to be this block, just something like it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Bumber Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,018
    Technically that's 256 channels.
     
  7. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,704
    DOAH! I guess I just get a single "F".
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    Makes me think of sort of a Rick and Morty Space Engineers episode...

    A Space Engineer is cruising along in his mining ship when a portal opens off his port bow and a huge, menacing ship squeezes through. Before he can react he is hit by a massive EMP blast that renders his ship immobile. Two smaller boarding craft emerge from the mothership. One blasts a hole in the side of his ship and a bunch of Treebeards wearing battle armor storm aboard. They ignore him as they search the ship. Finally one shouts, "Here they are, Captain!" pointing towards two refineries. The entire group then unleashes holy hell on the refineries until nothing is left but space dust. "What the hell is going on here" our hapless Space Engineer yells at the one that looks to be in charge.

    The Captain lowers his weapon. "You assholes have been dumping all your shit into our dimension since 2029. We have literally had it up to here," he said, holding his open hand just under his chin. We finally figured out where it's coming from and we aim to put an end to it, once and for all!" He made some quick gestures on his wrist terminal, then spoke on what appeared to be an open channel to his fleet. "This is it, boys! FAN OUT!"

    Hundreds of smaller but deadlier-looking ships pour out of the still-open portal and head off in every direction. Horrified, yet enraged, our Space Engineers grabs the arm of the now retreating Captain and spins him back around. "You bastard. I can't get anything done without those refineries. What am I supposed to do now?" The Captain shrugs his arm loose from the Space Engineers' grip. "We're not here to fix your toilets, mate. We're here to stop up the drain. We don't give a damn what you do, so long as it doesn't concern your shit and our dimension. Get me?" He said as he pushed the Space Engineer away with the barrel of his rifle and re-entered his boarding vessel, which returned to the mothership, which set off to coordinate what became to be know as the Great Refinery Purge of 2079.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    Yeah, but then what happened!!!???!!!
     
  10. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    Another portal opens, a big menacing ship emerges, a boarding party blasts its way on board, they take out the gravity generator, claiming that the generator "steals" gravity from their dimension causing catastrophic gravitational anomalies. These Treebeards vow to eliminate every one they find. Space Engineer floats helplessly while watching another massive fleet emerge from the second portal and spread itself out.

    Then a third portal opens, the new Treebeards destroy his Jump Drive because they cause unavoidable space anomalies in their dimension, another fleet bursts forth to finish the job. Space Engineer facepalms, grabs a beer and some popcorn (from a nearby machine) and waits for the next portal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    huh.. I never wondered before what exactly happened to the "tailings" of all of my refineries after I extracted the small % of usable materials from all of the raw ore.. I guess it did have to go "somewhere". truth be told, turning 200,000kg of ore into 15 kilos of platinum = a LOT of toxic sludge/slag leftovers polluting the lake downhill...

    But thinking about it I think I would much prefer some Treebeards stomping around than those *Orz* coming from *Below* to *Smell* our *juice*- and forever playing *The Game* while being confused about our *Straight Time* here in *Smooth* Space:
    [shudder]

    My reasonable expectations.
    - I think its reasonable and even grudgingly expected for KSH to just cut a big fat Outsourced Developer check to the mod makers for EnhancedExplorationMod, Surface Occupation, and Corruption PVE, and just plug those mods directly into the game. Boom. Single player Survival Mode upgraded to my fullest satisfaction (especially if it got EEM to work again)

    Those 3 mods alone would introduce multiple NPC factions (and the amazing NPC-NPC faction combat), and NPC interactive encounters to the game. Even on planets.

    Since Marek commented he wanted the game to be about machines overcoming challenges... active NPC interactions and encounters would definitely qualify towards such aspects of "surviving"
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    I'd grab my trusty BFG9000 and turn those Treebeards into furniture!!!
     
  13. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    Only if you have enough available PCU points ;)


    By the way, no one brought up new hand tools, like that thing I mentioned a few years back that you could use to "latch on" to a loose floating object with your character. Or one of those "claw on a cable" things you could shoot at something with and reel yourself in or reel the object in towards you.

    Had a lot of trouble thinking of other good standard hand tools we could get.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  14. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    888
    how about a laser rangefinder pointer, and some basic x50 binoculars?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  15. Plongo Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    42
    You'd rather have a feature that ends up being "press 5" every 10mins so your green hunger bar stays full (as well as 'oh darn forgot a spacebar, better go back to the cargo container'), to something which would add endless ship/vehicle engineering possibilities? Like, I'm not sure how a hunger bar would add something to an engineering game? Only way it could, would be for a full blown out food crafting system, with harvesting blocks etc to use the games designed game-play, which is to build stuff (make a harvesting vehicle etc). Now that would be amazing, and would add to the game (i'm already wanting to be a space farmer), but that level of game mechanics is never going to happen as we are at the end of the road for SE, and if that doesn't happen, neither will a crummy space bar, as it won't add anything to the original game concept. I think KEEN just want to fix what they have, which is probably going to do with resources, making planets more viable than space so transportation between the two can occur more often than not at all. They might also add in the items they already have assets too (hydro generator and wind turbine etc), and also will do balancing to energy, component values etc.
     
  16. Casegard Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    23

    Hmm... I guess I go with a "KICK" emote. Seriously there are so many things in engineering that can be fixed by kicking - it is a shame that this part of professional engineering is not part of the game :). I would settle with a "WHACK" it with your welder/grinder/drill but it would just not be the same as a good old kick :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    Early on in my engineeering career I learned to put “H2M-P2M” specification on my engineering drawings: “Hammer-to-Fit, Paint-to-Match.” Much can be accomplished using this method.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,704
    With enough force, you can get anything to fit in the size of a basketball or less.
     
  19. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    **sigh**

    This is what I am talking about. Players seem to know only the worst implementations of this feature, and somehow believe the worst way is the only way. Plongo, way back near the beginning of this thread I wrote:
    This was more or less an acknowledgement that adding hunger would, indeed, add something the player would have to be mindful of. Then, I discussed how much of a pain in the ass it should be:
    So you see, it is an element that you can choose to implement if you so desire. After all, what do wolves and sabroids add to an engineering game? Most people say "nothing" and turn them off. In my implementation, turning off the wildlife danger also turns off the hunger mechanic, so you are not bothered by either. You can disable air in the game if you don't want to be "bothered" with having to mine for ice, refining ice to oxygen, carrying around oxygen bottles and, of course, making a ship/station with no leaks. One could argue that those activities make SE more of an engineering game, and those people leave the mechanic "on".

    You also missed a critical element of adding hunger. It's not just adding a hunger bar. It's also about where what you eat comes from and how it becomes edible. Adding hunger means adding at least one more standard block: the food processor. The mod I linked doesn't just make you hungry. It also provides a variety of ways to get something to eat and a way to have food away from home. It adds about six new blocks to the game and twelve or thirteen new components. Talk about engineering possibilities.

    This thread is essentially about "what would make SE more "real" for you." The suggestions that have been posted here are mostly elements that the game currently does not have but seem to make sense for a game of this type or, to put it more succinctly, turn an engineering sandbox into a "real game." Many of them would make the game a bit harder. The people that made the suggestions think the current "game" is a bit too easy. Right now, in my opinion, the engineering in the game far exceeds the challenges. That's why people get bored. The standard challenge of having crash landed on a planet and rebuilding in order to get back into space is practically no challenge at all. Brand new players figure it out in a matter of minutes. People here suggest things like hazardous environments, more ore types, wear and tear, character skill level advancement, hunger, popcorn machines as things that will challenge your ingenuity. Every suggestion made represents "something else that you will have to take care of or worry about." These are all things you will have to deal with using your imagination and engineering prowess. They don't have anything to do with just building stuff.

    That hydrogen generator block they teased was a tough sell. The consensus is that the block itself makes little sense, and the design of the block suggests that its real purpose is to be part of cool-looking vehicle designs. If you are stranded on a planet you are more likely to find ice than uranium, so I can see how they wanted to make a power block fueled by ice, since most people start on or near a frozen lake. However, the wind turbine they also teased would be far more practical as a primary survival device. I would code the block so that its power output fluctuated (because there's no actual wind in the game). The block could provide power when solar panels cannot and, like solar panels, you don't have to search for fuel because the fuel comes to you. The hydrogen generator as a block adds no more engineering possibilities than any other block. It's you head that adds all the engineering possibilities, not the block.
    H2M, sure. Works for me. P2M? Too much work.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    And that's an absolute fact!
     
  21. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    647
    I don't think it'd be the only way. But I do think (or at least suspect) that it would be the way which would done, considering how the other consumeables for the player work.

    While it would be possible to make a fleshed out system exploring the difficulties in cultivating a balanced diet in the hostile enviroment of space, giving both interesting challanges and a real sense of achievment to it I can very much see it ending up like this: Mine organics, process using some block, then 'eat' potentially using some other block or inventory items so that the bar stays full and you don't die a pointless and agonizing death.

    The best hunger systems i've seen add a lot, though a lot of them don't. Minecrafts I don't feel is great, it is good but not amazing. Once you have a basic farm setup you're set for life pretty much. A modpack I played once had a greatly altered hunger system. Foods had diminishing returns, if you ate too many you'd fill less hunger bar from them with them eventually becoming useless. So you'd want to go out into the deadly wilderness and find more stuff to grow. Never have I been so happy to find a carrot. In that setup, this worked great and added a lot to the gameplay. Removed the ability to turtle up which is the usual method of dealing with places so hostile in minecraft, and so had you explore the world more and find other exciting things on the way.

    If SE was to have food for it to be good I think it'd need to be quite a fleshed out system, perhaps with a number of plants to grow each of which need slightly different conditions and you'd want to grow a few types at least. Which means food recource spots on planets/asteroids (space moss), a farm block which could display plants growing in it (many texture) and the whole hunger system itself made. I think that puts it out of the range of a reasonable expectation for the survival update.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    This the part of the discussion about hunger where things can start to go south. Once we start talking about possibilities, there's a chance we get all wrapped up in that conversation and opinions begin to... differ ;)

    I like to think that Keen's philosophy about adding blocks and features is that they only need to make the most minimal item with the least impact to performance. The player should then be able (preferably in-game) to embellish the item to suit their personal goals. I merely suggest that "hunger" should be a thing Modders can work with, and there should be a mod-able block that can turn "organic matter" into "edible matter". It doesn't need to be any fancier than that. "Organic matter" used to be in the code. I think it's still there. In the past, "organic matter" was something you found only on earthlike and you had to dig for it. Therefore, in a standard game with hunger turned on you will find "wolves" and patches of Keenberries on earthlike, sabroids on alien, and maybe splotches of some sort of disgusting goo on the surfaces of moons and some asteroids There would be a block you can dump that stuff in to that will give back some tasteless but conveniently wrapped food bars. In a modded game you may find all sorts of flora and fauna available on every celestial body and you'll be able to cultivate, prepare and serve it any way you want from roasting on a spit to Star Trek replicators.

    I know we all think like engineers around here, but this does not have to be more complicated than it should be ;)
     
  23. Plongo Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    42
    @Stardriver907 Don't get me started on the AI, also meteors, pressurisation, all these things have been left in the dirt, unfinished, and won't be finished as we are at the end of SE. But yes a fully fleshed out system would add a lot, but its not going to happen. Hopefully the modAPI becomes very stable so someone can create a full system with plenty of blocks.
    If the concept has blocks, count me in! :woot:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  24. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    452
    In regards to the hunger mechanic: I think anyone that finds the oxygen mechanic tolerable (or dare I say enjoyable) ought to concede that hunger mechanic in survival, and all the complexity that would allow, would be worth the hassle for the sake of realism. The emphasis being on 'real' (to the degree a pixel game in a universe without liquid water can be).

    The main problem I see with hunger is that it's almost always done to slave the player to the meter. If Keen makes it so that 3 meals a day keeps you healthy, and a day is typically 2 hours in the servers I play in, than we'd have to eat once every 40 minutes irl. That would be ok to me. Actually, that just made me realize we'll have to introduce a sleep mechanic too, or eat every 20 minutes. :D

    This brings up 2 more issues. The first being that starving to death should not be the immediate penalty for not eating enough. Gradual penalties should work here though. Let's say your health maximum, max running/walking speed, player weight (technically volume atm) limit all start reducing over a long time, and your oxygen consumption increases. If you continue to starve at stage 2 the game turns on, enforces and increases post-processing :p until finally at stage 3 you starve to death with your screen covered in vaseline.

    The second is that the hunger mechanic wedged into the game exactly as it is now would be useless. It would be easier to just respawn at medbay to reset the bars than to do any food related infrastructure or logistics. I tried that hunger mod a long time ago and didn't like it for exactly this reason.

    I suspect that we won't see Vanilla hunger in the Survival Patch because it seems like something they would have considered back when they were adding oxygen, and decided against it. I hope I'm wrong.
     
  25. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    415
    Greetings

    This is a games fan forum there is no reason! :p
     
  26. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    Can we instead have the player's head explode and red goo splatters the inside of my helmet's visor? That would be cool.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,457
    Made me think of the scene in one of the older star trek movies where there is blood floating in zero g.... I always thought that was kind of cool for some reason :woot:
     
  28. Smokki Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Talking about food and stats to babysit...

    I kind of feel like the suit energy is quite pointels stat these days, almost like the worst part of hunger without any meaningful engineering or blocks to support it and could easily be turned into a hunger almost as it is now -> Using tools and sprinting reduces players energy and if out of energy, using tools is far slower and player can't sprint, that's it. No need to kill off the player when out of food.

    At minimum it wouldn't even need new blocks. Just meat from creatures or plants from oxygen farm that could be produced into food by assembler. Energy could then be recharged by sitting in a seat/cockpit in a grid that has stored food.

    To add a bit more engineering into it, there could even be few new blocks which would also add that much needed decoration into play and even make oxygenated environments important:

    Hydroponics rack = similar in style with oxygen farm, produces plants, requires dirt and must be in oxygenated environment to function
    Food processor = produces dishes from various ingredients (raw meat, plants, etc.) must be in oxygenated environment to function
    Cold storage = Food must be stored in cold storage
    Table = Player sits in the table and energy is recharged and food removed from cold storage

    Food doesn't need to be tedious bar that you have to fill every now and then, but a mechanic that adds more engineering and decoration to the game. Though, if I understood correctly from the AMA, even pressurization might become a "experimental" feature, so there's zero chance for even simplest of food mechanics sadly.
     
  29. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,216
    i know people do tend to groan at the need to eat and drink....and mods to do so.
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1125648900

    I've found this one nice, often times now im creating a new area in my ships just for food processing.
    even rooms for hydroponics, bedrooms, mess halls.
    makes a ship feel more.......human and real.

    and also i found it pretty funny to go hunting with a jetpack and Precision Rifle because i wanted wolf steak for dinner tonight.
    cracking open those unknown signal drop pods to collect seeds and food/water rations
    using the Precision Rifle so i can attempt to get the least amount of bullets into something i'd be eating later...

    then travelling to the alien planet just to hunt the sabiroids.
     
  30. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    I know. Isn't that great!?! They taste like chicken.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.