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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Maybe that was the pun you were looking for, Louis?
     
  2. Sich Trainee Engineer

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    For food we have mods and that enough for me.

    But we have nothing to make pressurized area mandatory...
    You can stay forever in space without pressurized area, juste a medical bay...
    We need radiation, T°... food is already here with mods and can be improved....

    Honestly with mods SE can be a real game, but the lack for real need pressurized area is really a bad thing...
    Radiation and T° can be a good way to give advantage about pressurized area...


    Maybe player should gain level with experience, and the random encounter should be able to check the player level.
    Then few encounters for newbie and big challenge for advanced player...
     
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  3. Levits Senior Engineer

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    Key things for survival: There are only 3. FOOD, Water, and Shelter. 2 out of 3 is incomplete.
    Key things for survival in space: Food (again), water, and shelter. Plus breathable air (aka Oxygen) and electricity (to maintain/run the equipment that provides the aforementioned needs). 4 out of 5 is also incomplete.

    And death is a non-issue. The med bay should have been renamed the "Teleporter" a long time ago.
     
  4. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    907
    The problem with this perspective of "survival" is that it implies "sit in a sealed box all alone in the void of space and survive that way" with zero interactions, zero mechanical difficulties, etc.

    My particular perspective of "more involved survival" is "survive interacting with encounters with NPCs, Police, Pirate factions, aggressive corporate (Imperial) operations, Wild Animals (Dare I dream: Space sharks?), Space barbarians (Reavers), etc" that all cause serious wear and tear on all my toys- requiring constant upkeep/maintenance, or I die when the medbay finally gets severed from grid power.

    This of course reflects my original post in this topic: just pay the mod developers, and port in the EEM, Corruption, Surface Occupation, and (just added for more barbarianyness) Reavers Mods

    .. which to me seems much more interesting than in-suit protein bar/shake tubes in front of my spacesuited mouth sorta supply upkeep needs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  5. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Just for the record, this is not a contest ;)
     
  6. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Preach it, brother!! And I'd also like to see sharknados and tzinamis (for the uninitiated, those are tsunamis with zombies). I'd be all over those bad boys!!
     
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  7. Thermonuklear Junior Engineer

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    Love it how it says "reasonable" in the thread title... x)

    On topic, I've always felt the survival part of the game means the survival of infrastructure. The android we control is just another construct.
     
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  8. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    well, the sandbox game is about building. The "survival update" is about more than than. I don't think it's going to be about being able to build better.

    When I brought the topic up (hunger) I tried to make it a simple idea. The reason I brought it up is because there are a lot of people out there that enjoy the standard game and, for a very large number of good reasons, choose not to use mods. That does not mean, however, that they don't want something more in the game. I'm hoping that this discussion is about what we really, really think should be in the standard game. People get wrapped around the axle when the discussion twists from "should this be in the game" to "it can't be in the game unless it has [insert long list] which is too much work so no" or "it won't work unless it has [insert long list] which is too much work so no".

    There are already a number of things Keen put in the game (without asking us) that are now checkbox items. They have become options for people that play the standard game. They are options that some players believe are essential for the game, and other people believe ruin the game.

    I'm not even talking about adding a checkbox. It's already there. It's called "Wolves/Sabroids" on or off. Your choice. Wolves (they used to be called Cyberhounds, remember ;)) and sabroids are placeholder wildlife NPCs. Keen altered their behavior (at least the wolves) in 1.186 from relentless attackers to standoffish onlookers. The current popular hunger mods use wolves and sabroids as food sources, and replace their "contents" with "meat". This is not something beyond Keen's staff. Beyond this all the mods vary in complexity. That "complexity" is not something Keen needs to concern themselves with. The reason I keep dragging in wolves and sabroids is because their checkbox can also be the hunger checkbox. If you click the "wildlife" checkbox, hunger is also turned on, and the "wildlife" will contain "meat" instead of metal grids. The refinery will have the capacity to turn "meat" into a consumable, the character can put the consumable in their inventory, and the cycle is complete. The "wildlife" checkbox is one every player makes a decision about sooner or later. If you don't have "wildlife" turned on, you probably don't want hunger, either.

    But, what if you want "wildlife" but still despise "hunger"? Well there's another checkbox for "sun rotation". If it is not checked, the sun doesn't "rotate". If it is checked, you also get to decide "how long". If you check "wildlife", you should be able to decide how much "hunger" annoys you from, say, "every fifteen seconds" to "never". If it's "never" you get wildlife without hunger. If you want it the other way around, you're weird. Just sayin.

    All the other stuff, the "complexity", can be mods. The current mods should still work. I don't know what Modders currently have to do to make their hunger mods work, but they should only need or have to mod fancier food producing blocks or other types of flora and fauna and maybe something you can find in space. The best hunger mod provided food production blocks (hydroponic, meat-farm-in-a-box, fish tank, a composting block to collect all the waste to make ferterlizer/meat food/fish food, and a machine to turn "ice" into "water" for the plants and animal... thingys. The mod had an oxygen generator before Keen did. Works the same way as the standard "oxygen generator". Modders will have to supply all that stuff because Keen won't and Keen shouldn't. I just think players that like the idea can have it without resorting to a mod, but not be forced to deal with it if they don't want it.

    It's not a matter of "it's just one more thing" because I have a feeling, hunger or no, that there are going to be a lot more "things" after the MP update ;) (and afterwards there's gonna be a lot more checkboxes, too :woot:).

    Agreed.

    Well, let me just take the wind out of their sails and reveal the big surprise (and remember, you heard it from me, first."
     
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  9. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    You know, I looked for a popcorn machine mod to make a bad 'muh mods' joke and there isn't any. There is a vending machine on the front page though. Vanilla. Guess I'll have to engineer a popcorn machine then...

    :munch:
     
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  10. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]
    and for good measure
    [​IMG]

    The various misspellings of "Sabiroid" are an ascended community meme based on some name the 3D modeller used, before they were released officially with planets. Unfortunately it is baked into a wiki or two now, so new people get indoctrinated. In-game canon should prevail* - there is no "Sabroids" checkbox.


    *which isn't much better as a rule since several blocks have visible words on the texture that are different from the block's in-game name, like the arc furnace having "blast furnace" or the air vent having "oxygen pressurizer" (there are more examples). These mis-namings survived the block texture updates, so it's clear the artists that KSH uses didn't care or know better. I wish they would fix that.
     
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  11. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    You know what, as soon as it was possible to disable them, I did so to the point that when I start a fresh world they get disabled by muscle memory. Their current purpose is strictly to harass and everybody thinks getting components from them is weird. I would say turning either of them on turns on hunger, then if you don't want hunger you set it to never. If someone can tell me that Keen's staff can't handle that (if they can't, not if they want to) then I will consider the proposal unreasonable.

    I'm pretty certain I've always spelled it Sabroid because I never liked them and never cared about the correct spelling. Not even from the moment they were teased. I also say Junk Drive. As far as I'm concerned, that's not a misspelling.

    They only have six legs. They're not spiders. Not even Arachnids. Space ants, maybe.
     
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  12. Malware Master Engineer

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    Neither. They're alien, they have no relation to Earth life forms other than convergent evolution :p
     
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  13. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    Invertebrates are Invertebrates whether they're from Earth or not. All arachnids have eight legs on this planet or any other. So, they can't be spiders. They could be ants. Alien is an adjective, so they're not alien spiders, but they could be alien ants.
     
  14. Fipmip Trainee Engineer

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    If I had to say what I thought SE was missing aside from stable MP with 32+ players, I'd say really only a reason for planets - space is just easier at the moment, and of course has the advantage of fitting a JD to your space station to throw off attackers. If you want a static planet base (Those mobile bases are far too prone to accidents), you'll need to defend it tooth and nail if it gets found by a hostile faction.

    Another thing might be progression. The different tool tiers are nice, but really are easy to acquire. The reason I mention this it because adding more progression mechanics colud be tied to having a reason for a planet base - i.e. the different planets harbour something you might need to say unlock better schematics.

    As a very simple example, the mars planet could harbour resources for making better rifles, the earth planet better welders and so on. That shouldn't be the extent of it, I'd want more than just better character tools as a reason to ship materials to and from planets, but you get the idea.

    Of course not all maps have planets, which is why this would need to be a thing that could be customized in the scenario settings. All in all thats all i can really think of to round out the space engineers experience. The rest comes from engineering in single player and blowing eachother up in multiplayer.
     
  15. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    Agreed, there needs to be some sort of progression. The problem is every vanilla planet has every resource except Platinum. The only reason to go into space is to mine Platinum and the only use for platinum is the elite tools and thrusters which are only useful in space anyway.

    There are mods of course but using mods is not a realiable solution, you cannot be guaranteed they will be available for use every time you log in for various reasons especially after a patch.
     
  16. Levits Senior Engineer

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    That's precisely the problem the game has now. You need only 3 blocks in the entire game to complete your "survival" needs. 1 solar panel, 1 seat, and 1 solar oxygen generator. You are now set for life with not a care in the world. Even better, you don't even have to plan for this thing or be concerned for any long-term planning. You can place it down wherever/whenever, then grind it down and carry it with you until you need it again.

    Things to interact with are a completely different set of obstacles. Killer drones, zombies, and NPC's are one thing; but where's the "natural" threats? Where's the concern for starvation? concern for radiation, temperature, gravity, etc.

    We've got rocks that come flying in from the sun... which was fine the first couple times until you realize that it's more like guided missiles fired from the sun considering how accurate they are at zeroing in on your stations and ships than even the Gatling guns.

    Survival currently is nothing more than creative with a heck of a lot of grinding involved and there is still yet any form of obstacle in the game to overcome that that is tied to survival. I can't even say that the drones they sent at us were even that much of a problem. What's the worse they are going to do? Destroy your ship or station that you really don't need anyways; it's not like you can't cobble together those 3 previous blocks and not have to worry about anything but the time it will take you to repair the damage.

    The game probably was never suppose to be any sort of "survival" game. But the way they marketed it (for some reason or another) seemed to make me think that it was going to involve me actually trying to survive... something. My definition of survival is pretty straight forward and as it stands, the character's survival doesn't much amount to anything as far as the game is concerned. If it was only suppose to be Lego's with multiplayer, I'd have much preferred them to have stated as such beforehand.

    I can only hope that the new "survival" update brings elements that actually provides obstacles worth overcoming.
     
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  17. Sich Trainee Engineer

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    Survival need something like the scarce ressources mod, but with a lot less ore spot.
    You can find everything in 5km around your base on planet...

    Oh and jump drive that can be used by drone / autopilot...
     
  18. Malware Master Engineer

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    I'm not realistically expecting anything significant.
     
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  19. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah, that's a good point. I think part of animosity in these discussions is related to the choice of words used in the title.

    I don't 'expect' much more to come either, but I 'hope' this stuff does.
     
  20. Infekted Apprentice Engineer

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    If they can get multiplayer working properly then I literally do not care.

    More customisable world settings, especially in regards to resource distribution would be nice.
     
  21. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    Honestly I think it'll just be the wind turbines, basic assembler and hydrogen engine (which I really hope they make not run on ice because that is silly) and not much (if anything) else.
     
  22. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    There's already been huge debates on whether Hydro Engines should be added, so I'll just say that if it becomes possible to fuelscoop gas giants or something then I too would welcome Hydro Engines. :p
     
  23. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    And popcorn machines!
     
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  24. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    But... they said there would be surprises:eek:! :pbjt:Thousands of them:carlton:

    See, if they made the generator run on fuel made from organic matter, and they put organic matter back in the game, you would have a basic generator and an abundant resource (at least as abundant as ice, maybe more so). Same mechanic as hydrogen i.e. you need to make fuel and carry it in containers, but a more likely generator type than one that uses ice for fuel, especially if we are talking about a generator you will have to resort to using because you're in a survival situation. Not something you would want to power a ship with.
     
  25. sadpickle Trainee Engineer

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    I expect nothing, but I have a long wish-list of things that would make the survival game compelling.

    If they will add the aforementioned blocks like a hydro engine and wind turbine, I'll consider that an accomplishment. Such are the standards I expect from Keen.
     
  26. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    Expect nothing and hopefully you wont be disappointed. Not guaranteed. I mean if the post processing effects in the last patch were not optional it would have been a visual downgrade for me. I would have expected nothing and got worse.
     
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  27. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    We can't expect nothing. They're doing an update. That makes it reasonable to expect something. No guarantees you'll like any of it, though. :woot:

    Maybe I should have called the thread, "What Do We Know Keen Is Going to Put in the Survival Update and Why That Will Make Me Give Up All Video Games Forever" :D

    If I really wanted to bring down the internet with your responses I could start a thread called, "What should Keen Undo in the Next Update" ;)
     
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  28. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    Most of the comments seem to be asking for more "stuff": more materials to collect, more hand-work/building from scratch. Sleep/food/whatever else you need to micromanage.

    I honestly don't think those things make for an interesting game, they just take you to the same state of being bored in a lifeless world but in a drawn out fashion.

    I want PVE. Real PVE with competent enemies and potential partners. If this is a game about engineering, with survival features, then we need reasons to engineer things: namely enemies to fight, and partners to trade with/sell stuff to.

    There is nothing to actually do in SE other than building to fulfill some very narrow requirements, and then building for the sake of building. That gets boring fast.
     
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  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    That's only because it's a sandbox game. The other stuff you mentioned belongs in a survival game, which SE is not. My impression is that Keen doesn't want to turn SE into a survival game, but they want to up the ante on the survival/gameplay features. No matter what they do, SE will suck as a survival game. Fortunately, It's not a survival game.

    I think it's pretty clear that whatever Keen does, Modders will provide whatever is lacking. If Keen tries to make SE a full survival space game they will never finish it. There's too much that has to be done, undone or redone. If people understand that Keen is not trying to make a survival game, perhaps there would be less talk about big, complex ideas. For instance, I don't think adding hunger to the list of things a player has to manage turns SE into a survival game. It would just turn SE into a sandbox game that has hunger as an option. It adds an element to survival play but your play won't revolve around it. I believe it's such a fundamental element of "survival" that players that want to go that route should be able to do so without a mod. If people want more than what standard hunger provides, they're gonna have to use mods. I just think it makes more sense that if you shoot a wolf, which does not have to be in your game, you should get something you can consume as a character, and maybe something you can use for engineering purposes, like a lubricant or a medical supply or fertilizer for your plants, instead of construction components.
     
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  30. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    BBQ’ed wolf! Toss it on the barbie!
     
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