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What Are We Reasonably Expecting Will be Addressed in the "Survival Update"?

Discussion in 'General' started by Stardriver907, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    I'm probably being overly pessimistic. SE is doing alright in the grand scheme of things (top 100 title on steam), but overall retention has been fairly poor for a million-sales title. But the crux of my argument is that I don't think it's got the community to support the pie in the sky player driven efforts everyone keeps saying is going to save the game.
  2. Malware Master Engineer

    That, at least, is something we can agree on.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

    All I have to say about player counts and patches reviving "dead games" is this-rainbow 6, no man's sky, XCOM 2, ESO, ARK, PoE, and THE DIVISION FOR GODS SAKE. All games were dead AF, and patches with significant content and stability ECT released and people came back. I have at least 10 steam friends who are just waiting for content patches. The stability is here, all we need is an actual game to play aside from a welding simulator. All this game really even needs is a decent survival mechanic, game modes, better random encounter spawns and ANY reason to explore.

    I say they make parts super hard to make, making scrapping parts more viable and add in the grind to learn mechanic. Force planet starts and seriously nerf atmospheric engines and uranium reactors.

    Progression, a survival mechanic, and any improvement over the faction Warfare. In stats would be great adding and player kills deaths current worth calculated by owned blocks and contents of cargo containers and have a list. We need arcade style stats, the more the merrier. How far your traveled, how long you have been alive, player value, how much ore mined, power used, players killed, everything.

    Also I want toggles for vanilla shields, radar, homing missiles that are not PMW'S, reactor and thruster balancing, food, suit maintenance/upgrading, upgrade modules coming back to thrusters and gyros and more upgrade modules in general. Shit in tennis could use modules turrets, everything. There is a LOT that could relatively easily be fixed with just balancing and a few blocks that would easily be added in to the new MP code.

    ALSO, I want gibs and detailed astronaut deaths. It's almost tounge in cheek now how much we die, why not spice up the deaths a little. Say you hit a l asurface too hard with your head, the helmet should cave in and blood spew out and freeze into blood chunks. Too close to a thruster or welder? Burnt to a blackened smoking crisp. Step into a drill, and nothing remains but a fine red frozen mist and a hand holding a welder. A bit more focus on deaths and death animations, also recycling dead bodies and a functional med bay mechanic where med bays take protoplasm and a little bit of time to regrow another astronaut or you have to use cryo Bays to store bodies.
  4. tankmayvin Senior Engineer


    1. NMS is going to collapse back down to hundreds of players in about a month when people realize its more of the same but with some company. Look at the steam chart. It exploded for a month and already half those people are gone.
    2. XCOM2 never bounced back. It had huge appeal for about a month and then has collapsed to a still very respectable 4-5K player count (better than SE).
    3. I don't know what Division you're talking about, but the actual one died in a month as well, also maintaining a decent player count 6-7K. But like XCOM, a pathetic fraction of sales.
    4. Ark has been constant for almost it's entire lifecycle! It's actually one of the more enduring, stably populated, top 10 steam games.
    5. POE is a mess. Spikes and then dies with every tweak.
    6. The only actual exception in is R6, which I specifically mentioned because it is heralded as something of an industry miracle.

    Do you actually look at the steam charts for games you are talking about? Because the facts don't line up with your statements.

    Also, there is a high probability we will never get an actual game so it remains space lego. It's not even remotely a good welding simulator cuz the welder radius is screwed up about half the time these days.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  5. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Thousands of players out of how many purchases? 1000 players out of 5000 sales is good, 1000 players out of 1000000 sales is bad.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. Malware Master Engineer

  7. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

    I think the largest and most lasting resurgence in player numbers will come with whatever patch they finish the VST, if that ever happens. People will go crazy making scenarios that give players the one thing they want the most for SE, something to do.

    While some people see it for making story modes, I'm thinking more like simple structured games. Something similar to Starcraft where people use the editor to make turret defense maps and tug of war maps. Imagine what people could come up with as creative mini-games that take advantage of the features that make SE unique. Wave survivals, physics games, structured PvP competitions (combat, racing, etc...). Anything that gives players a goal oriented, relatively short duration, cooperative and/or competitive play experience will bring back people and draw new players.

    Survival is the long attention span gameplay experience. As such, I hope Keen makes the survival mode as deep and complex as they can. It's the mode for patient people who enjoy figuring out complexity and managing lots of resources. The VST will give us the game modes for the short attention span experience. The short attention span mindset is a perfect match for a game with it's crowning feature being really awesome destruction.
  8. Malware Master Engineer

    Highly unlikely, given Marek's statements.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. sammyvoncheese Apprentice Engineer

    sim speed of -5 lol
  10. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

    All the games I mentioned get peaks when patches come out is my point and then due to a lack of content and meh gameplay they die. PoE spikes due to the leagues. Ark was DEAD and then patches cams fairly quickly and saved it mainly due to the engine.

    I like what was said about the VST and feel pretty much the same. I have been hoping for scenarios and the like for a looong time. The "campaign" is tons of fun and is what the game needs. Unless a game like see does get an in depth survival/pvp mode it is going to see patch spikes. Rights now the pvp aspect is pretty fun. We just need a few things to make it viable and it's good to go.
  11. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Ark was never dead, it never even dropped below 30K average players! You have no idea what you're talking about. Any dev in the current climate would kill for a "dead" game that has 30K people playing it.

    Of course games have little peaks when content comes out, but it is very rare that content is sufficient and game-changing enough to get people to stay in-game for more than a few weeks. Like I said before, almost no games in history have managed to build up a player base from a ghost town and sustained that player base over the lifetime of the game.

    The only exception that really exists is R6 siege, which is why it is heralded as such an industry miracle.

    Look, we all must acknowledge that games have a lifecycle and that that lifecycle (for good selling game) involves sustaining some sort of player base for a while, but eventually that base dwindles to a small number of die-hard fans. Games without mass lasting appeal (including some AAA titles) tend to die off to that die hard fan base in a month or so. Division, for honor, etc all died off very quickly. Other games keep chugging along for a while some seemingly indefinitely. Games almost never build up players after a long time after "release".

    Early access has not changed that lifecycle much. People can still get bored of a feature-incomplete game and rarely return in droves when the title is released. There are numerous examples of this already on the steam database. Again, all of the historical data is there for anyone to peruse.

    We should face the facts that SE likely will not get a major content injection for survival, and that even it does, it likely wont re-build a huge community around it. SE has a very stable, longer-term player count of about 3000-4000, which I think is really bad give initial sales, interest and counts, but I guess not really dead in the context of steam games. Maybe SE will pull off a miracle, but history is very much against it.

    The point here, is that SE does not, and will not have ecosystem where players can "save" the game by modding survival to their desired complexity. Survival mods never did this back when this game was really trendy and legitimately popular, those modders and whatnot aren't going to come back and try again after release.
  12. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

    Fully integrated NPC antagonists.

    Currently running a little survival game. Started dropping out of orbit in an escape pod I made that has the bare minimum for building an assembler and arc furnace (adding a game start like that would be dandy, but that can be done through the Workshop fairly easily, and not everyone wants that). But now that I've landed and gotten set up, the only thing keeping me from hiding out on my little corner of the planet until I've built up enough force to stomp anything that gets in my way is the wolfies, which I had to add a mod for to up their danger. Unfortunately, I managed to cunningly misplace about 200 mags of rifle ammo, so I'm currently hunkered down in my little bunker with less than 1/3 health and about 300 rounds, desperately hoping to find something, anything with magnesium in it.

    In short, I'm having a blast! But the clunkiness of it that stems from the incompleteness of the base game features and my modded fix for that saps some of the enjoyment. Being hunted by NPC pirates with rifles, and having to hide from the occasional scout ship (by shutting down all broadcasts before they get within 5 km or something, I dunno) would vastly improve the experience.

    There's a ton the game could use, but if you want to see people coming back to the game -- to play it SP, to play it with their friends, to stream it, whatever -- it needs to have an antagonist element that's more engaging than resource scarcity or the perils of bad engineering.
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    The shame of the matter is that SE is a good platform for what could be a great game. Contrary to what many of the squeakiest wheels here believe, even Lego gets old sooner than later and CAD is something you do at work. There needed to be a "game" to play in the nice sandbox. I respect that some kids can enjoy just being in the sandbox, but I hope they can respect that many of us need a bit more. I may be wrong, but it seems that SE could be a great game with just a little push.

    • Agree Agree x 3
  14. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    This so much.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    That's why I included being able to change the amount of thrust that thrusters have by a global value, like 2x, 3x, etc.

    However, I do understand what you're saying, the members of this community, and their goals/expectations, would scare most other developers to death, and making them all happy is nearly impossible. Still, you can at least get game balance close enough to reasonable so people aren't using hundreds of small grid large ion thrusters on large grid ships, or using small grid batteries on large grid ships, or using large grid hydrogen on small grid ships.

    Yep, I just used linear performance because it was easy to balance and gave the result I wanted.

    I mean, one faction could have uranium as it's currency, another faction could have ice as it's currency, yet another could have rare metals, gold/silver/platinum, as it's currency, yet another could have it's own custom object currency, like EEM, and yet another could have a global currency for the player that doesn't have to be stored, and as such can't be lost. This is only for NPC to player trading, players can choose any method of trade they want when trading with each other.

    I play a pirate playstyle, I like having only one ship, and that ship is both my storage ship and pirating ship, the issue is I've looted too much stuff. My solutions are to expand my ship, which usually isn't an option because this decreases the maneuverability of my ship. Make a grav cannon and launch the stuff I don't want at other ships, which I've done but I still have too much stuff. Breaking down components because components usually take up more volume than their resource cost, excluding reactor components and canvas for parachutes, but I still have too much stuff even after doing this. Finally, simply toss what I don't need into space, which I'm at the point now where I'm tossing reactor components. That's why I want trade stations, so I can sell the stuff I don't currently need, and later buy what I do.

    To be fair, I'm not mugging defenseless cargo ships, I'm playing with both corrupted drones and reavers, and I only loot ships from those two mods. Also, I prefer to play on 1x survival, which I why I'm having storage issues.

    Before I forget, EEM is back up, trading for the mod is down, but everything else is working.
  16. yokmp Trainee Engineer

    I didn't read everything but I wanted to say that I would like to see some sort of progression.
    At the Moment you start with the Ability to build everything. You just need the Ressources.
    So you go out and Mine/Refine 'for hours'. Now you can build a Ship to mine faster to build bigger Ships.
    Now you need to mine even faster and build even bigger ships to mine faster and so on.
    It's more like one of these Asian Grind MMOs. I don't like such games ^^

    Maybe you must use a T2 Welder to build advanced Stuff and find some sort of Receipes in Wrecks or Pirate Bases. I don't know, I'm not a game Designer.
    I just want more than an 'Oh, now i have the complete Leo-Skin ...' or 'Just another Wreckage'.
  17. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Funny i was just thinking about making evil player hunting mecha godzilla drone when i saw this lol
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Make it a Mecha-Streisand and you'll have worshippers.
  19. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    What is streisand?
    I googled it and there was just pictures of some singer lol
    • Funny Funny x 2
  20. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Google "Mecha Steisand South Park"
  21. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Lol so mecha godzilla with tits and a wig :,D
  22. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    no, that would be Trans-Godzilla I think.
  23. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    If i make that robot would it make me a trans former?
  24. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

    Shit I would just take a wave survival mode where you can just pick what you fight each wave or something. Have a HUD screen with each waves and some ships or vehicles you can tick on and off. I ha e wanted a base defense since the game was released. I just want to build a mega base and have it get attacked wile I defend it and then go do cleanup for more parts. Add in the grind to learn mod and OMFG you have to killkeverything without destroying all the good parts. Make a bunch of super sweet turrets and you and your buddies defend a base. It would be FUCKING AWESOME. Why this wasn't in the game from day 1 has baffled me to this day. Why have turrets? I wonder if there is a stat for how many turrets were built and never fired and the server went down for whatever reason....

    Anyway, I want base defense now. Hell I'll pay a modder 50USD$ to make a good one. 16 player limit is perfect. Even better, have it like 4 on 12 with the 4 acting as attackers or 8 on 8, the possibilities are endless. Do waves with a break in between for cleanup and repair. Have boss waves , all sorts of cool shit. You make it really good and I'll give you 100 . Shit I'll give 100$ anyway. Anyone? Base defense mod? 100$? Any takers? I have 100$ in my PayPal and venmo. Hell and steam, monster world just released...... Aaaaaanyone??
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Well, I play a Merchant playstyle. As such, I can't say I have "too much" of anything. The presence of my commercial ship on an average server would mean a juicy target for pirates, easy pickings for enemy factions, and perhaps salvation for new players. Ever notice how people that want an in-game currency either usually play as pirates or part of a well-established military force. They never seem to want to play as either Merchants or Colonists. They want to be part of a Force with Guns. Big ones.

    Pirates don't buy and sell stuff. A pirate that paid for anything would probably have to walk the plank for Conduct Unbecoming of a Pirate. All the stuff they take from other people is supposed to guarantee that they will be able to enjoy wine, women and song whenever they drop anchor in a friendly port.

    Military Forces generally provide for themselves. I can't imagine someone with a battle fleet coming to me for supplies, unless they are under the impression that they won't need to pay for anything.

    Your conundrum seems to be that resources are just way to easy to get and accumulate. Do you really need Keen to fix that for you?

    I think the antagonists they currently provide are adequate. Their appearance and behavior can be modified to taste. Again, not something I would want Keen to lock in for everyone.

    Perusing it won't mean anything. It doesn't matter. The current game is not like the game first released. The current player base is not the same people that bought in during the initial release. People are coming and going for all sorts of reasons, real and made up. People that said they love this game are gone, and people that swore they'd never let SE run on their machine are still here. You ask twenty people why some stayed and others left and you will get twenty different answers, all backed up with internet stats. None of it means anything because we are not talking about the finished product, which is years away. All the stats might means something then but, honestly, If you either like or hate the game stats won't change your mind.

    Although some of them have. Since most of the survival mods had little chance of surviving (heh) weekly updates, it's no surprise they never managed to "save" SE. A lot of early Modders worked under the impression that SE was on the verge of release. Many of the early Modders moved on out of frustration. There are, however, some that stuck with it and others that rose to prominence. Things we have longed for over the years are finally showing up (HUD Compass mod, for example). People that left the game a long time ago are now giving the game a second look and they are saying they like what they see, which is not to say they are now committed to playing SE exclusively, but at least they are willing to withhold judgement because they see a change is taking place.

    When I look around and see what people are currently doing with servers, and I hear more and more talk about support, to some extent, for server based play from Keen, I am convinced that SE's best hope comes from modding survival to desired complexity. This is because the base game is not a survival game, it's a sandbox game. If Keen wants the survival game crowd, they need to make a survival game that has "everything" in it and would be difficult to mod I.e. Subnautica, Star Citizen, No Man's Sky, Miner Wars, etc.. In other words, SE is a game where I can have it my way. Otherwise Keen makes a game where you get it their way or you don't get the son-of-a-gun. I don't know or care which way is more appealing to most people. I'm content with Keen's current approach for this game, and I'll withhold judgement on their next project until I see it. What people have to say about the game on Twitter does not influence my decisions one bit.
  26. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    You sell all the junk you don't need, then you buy space beer :beer:, sound blocks with your favorite songs on them :carlton:, eat some roasted Sabiriod :munch:, and then enjoy the company of the local space engineers with the rest of your "earnings." Isn't that selling what you don't need, so you can later buy what you do?

    Well resources I don't need are way to easy to get and accumulate, resources I do need, see above, are either very hard to get or are currently not in the game. Sooooooo, yes, yes I do.
    Also, there never seems to be enough missiles, there's more than enough ammo for gatling guns, but never enough for missile launchers.
  27. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Just saying that if you are a Pirate you wouldn't buy any of that stuff. You'd just take it and anyone that has a problem with that can take it up with Davy Jones.

    It's true to some extent that Keen has irritated the community from time to time over the availability of this or that ore, and it got worse after planets happened. Keen will eventually have to settle on where and in what quantity stuff is going to be, and live with the consequences of what players will be able to build with whatever is in reach.

    You don't need Keen. You need a Merchant. Someone that always has what you need and will trade it for what you have (or can get). Sure NPCs can do that, but they will be forced to do it in a predictable (and thus exploitable) way. Player created (and enforced) trade systems are far more... interesting.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. jaunetajabe Apprentice Engineer

    What I expect is:

    • Wind turbine generator
    • More Ore elements Aluminium,Titanium, etc, Heavy armor blocks should require titanium
    • A new block "MIXER" to mix ores creating new materials, giving to the game a new amazing gameplay
    • A new small Assembler for basic structures, motor, steel plate,construnction component
    • See the name of a block just looking at it!
    • Rebalacing of ore
    • A reworking in how we build batteries, we should finish the structure first and block should be storing energy with just on power cell, storing the percentage of energy that the cells we install can store. I mean that if we have 119 power cell the battery should work at 99% not as now that is unusable.
    • Same for solar panels, Why a solar panel is not working till we complete the solar cells?
    • Heating, 2 new blocks, for cooling heating airtight rooms
    • Weather, at least Cloudy/Sunny days that dramatically affect to solar panels
    • Weather, wind direction and wind force, affecting fligth and wind turbines performance
    • Weather, Seasons, affecting temperature
    • Temperature in planets, being important to find a place with a nice temp to establish a base
    • A set of official decoration blocks
    • Radiation meter, need to cover reactor with interior blocks for example
    • A small battery block just 1x1x1
  29. Spaceman Spiff Junior Engineer

    I agree completely with the request for aluminum since most space flight vehicle structures are indeed fabricated of aluminum (about 1/3 the density of carbon steel). When additional strength is needed, designers also use titanium (about 2/3 the density of carbon steel). Both are low-density materials and ideally suited for this purpose. Steel is not well suited because of the weight penalty for trying to get a steel structure with its relatively high mass into space from a planet's surface. Once in space, steel's density is less of an issue, but still an issue nevertheless. It takes proportionally greater effort to accelerate and decelerate an object of increasingly greater mass. Therefore, to move a space flight vehicle structure that's fabricated of aluminum takes much less energy.

    I disagree completely that "heavy" armor blocks should use titanium. Non-stainless steel may be generalized as either plain carbon steel or alloy steel. Plain carbon steel is what I associate with the light armor blocks whereas alloy steel is what I associate with heavy armor blocks. A couple of the most common alloy steels are 4100-series and 4300-series, the former of which is termed "chromoly" steel because the predominant alloys are chromium and molybdenum, but also manganese, and the latter of which is termed "tool steel" that is chromoly steel with the addition of nickel to significantly increase toughness and strength (note that "tool steel" has a much broader range than just 4300-series alloy steel with varieties that use cobalt, vanadium, and other elements to increase wear resistance, shock resistance, and other properties according to the user's needs). Steel grid that is used to construct heavy armor blocks, interestingly enough, uses iron, cobalt, and nickel, which is kind of a potpourri of alloying elements. Titanium is used to alloy steel, but in very small proportions, i.e., it's usually not considered a major alloy contributor.

    Yes, a person could go nuts with all the material options. In my opinion, the addition of aluminum for structures (which I would call "light" armor) would shift the current definition of light armor to be "medium" armor and add significant benefits to the game. But that's just my opinion.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  30. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

    I really want to see something like this. Having slightly given up on some of the functional aspects of the game like pistons rotors and pressurization, things like alloys and adding in a tech tree and boosting the exploration could be ways to add to the playability of the game and it is engineering.

    I also really want either a grind to learn or schematic system, where you only know how to make basic crude blocks. While an astronaut would probably build shit pretty well, he isn't going to remember off the top of his head how to build every single part. The grind to learn system, tho I feel you should have to fully grind down 5 of something before you learn it as you are not going to learn everything the first go around. Or maybe there is a 4th tool, like a wrench, to learn how to take blocks apart or maybe you have to physically place the block in a scanner to get a schematic. Obviously it would take way longer for owned blocks.
    • Like Like x 2