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what is the time period for medieval engineers? i'm thinking 12th

Discussion in 'General' started by ibisgrunk, May 11, 2017.

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  1. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    Thank you for that.
    Tour dates listed on an ancient tunic found in some salt soaked cave, no doubt. :)
     
  2. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    OK too much time on my hands, i say gunpowder is the date stop for core vanilla dev made ME. got to cap ME as pre-gunpowder purely for academic reasons... peaceman's gunpowder and musket mods acceptable and fun, and are recommended [flintlock musket dates to 1610 a.d.]. but wait, what type of gunpowder and what type of use? we are building castles and i believe the intent is physics over cannons, trebuchets over mortars... we in our sick minds need to blow things up with gunpowder and i for one support all mayhem. so when did the castle die to the cannon, the common question? and therefore when did building castles become no longer wise militarily, and more?

    TLDR: cannon in EU 1374 a.d., guns in EU 1201-1299 a.d.; musket 1610 a.d.; ME is pre-gunpowder or we lose the catapults...

    Here is why i would say gunpowder kills the word Medieval:

    "...Gunpowder was responsible for the elimination of a way of life. By punching through the knight's armor and demolishing the lord's castle, gunpowder brought an end to the Middle Ages and paved the way for the Renaissance. Cannons and hand guns weren't just weapons, they were the voices of change echoing over Europe. Since the social and political structure of the Middle Ages was linked so closely to warfare, gunpowder changed the social structure of entire countries, simply by making war a profession, instead of a sport for nobles. By redistributing wealth and serving as inspiration for creative minds, guns and cannons smashed a way of life forever and created the base for the world people know now." ref. http://delusionland.com/medieval/paper.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon: "...By 1326 depictions of cannon had also appeared in Europe and almost immediately recorded usage of cannon began appearing.[6][7] By the end of the 14th century cannon were widespread throughout Eurasia.[8][9][10][11][12][12] Cannon were used primarily as anti-infantry weapons until around 1374 when cannon were recorded to have breached walls for the first time in Europe.[13] Cannon featured prominently as siege weapons and ever larger pieces appeared. In 1464 a 16,000 kg cannon known as the Great Turkish Bombard was created in the Ottoman Empire.[14] Cannon as field artillery became more important after 1453 with the introduction of limber, which greatly improved cannon maneuverability and mobility.[15][16] European cannon reached their longer, lighter, more accurate, and more efficient "classic form" around 1480. This classic European cannon design stayed relatively consistent in form with minor changes until the 1750s.[17] ..."

    <<<and>>>

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder: "...Knowledge of gunpowder spread rapidly throughout the Old World possibly as a result of the Mongol conquests during the 13th century, with written formula for it appearing in the 1267 Opus Majus treatise by Roger Bacon and a 1280 treatise by Hasan al-Rammah. It was employed in warfare to some effect from at least the 12th century in weapons such as fire arrows, bombs, and the fire lance before the appearance of the gun. While the fire lance was eventually supplanted by the gun, other gunpowder weapons such as rockets and fire arrows,continued to see use in China, Korea, India, and eventually Europe. Bombs too never ceased to develop and continued to progress into the modern day as grenades, mines, and other explosive implements. Gunpowder has also been used for non-military purposes such as fireworks for entertainment, or in explosives for mining and tunneling.

    The evolution of guns led to the development of artillery during the 15th century, pioneered by states such as the Duchy of Burgundy. Firearms came to dominate early modern warfare in Europe by the 17th century. ..."

    <<<and>>>

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun: "... The first devices identified as guns appeared in China around CE 1000. By the 12th century the technology was spreading through the rest of Asia, and into Europe by the 13th century.[2] ..."
     
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  3. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    That gunpowder and arquebuses killed the knight is just one theory. Another says, pike infantrymen did this. Another says, the rain of longbow arrows shot by archers from behind a line of field fortifications the horses could not overcome, at Crecy and Agincourt did (100-years-war). http://thecompletepilgrim.com/battles-of-crecy-agincourt-battlefield/
    --
    Armor (helmets and chest plates) kept being used until Napoleon's time (heavy cavalry used them - Cuirasseurs).
    Nor was the building of fortresses (and a castle is a fortress or fortified building, in the first place) done for with gunpowder. The fortresses changed. They used sloped walls and earthworks for meeting the cannon balls. Famous French fortification engineer Vauban designed in 17th century the perfect fortresses suitable for that era.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S├ębastien_Le_Prestre_de_Vauban
    And longbows were for centuries still in use (specimen were found on sunk galeons), side by side with the gunpowder weapons, because the latter were awkward, took long time to load and were inaccurate in aiming. Speaking of Napoleon again, at this time the salvo of Musquets was meant to be effective by concentration (so was the use of artillery), as many as possible on a sector, and not so much for sharpshooting. For this they had specialists (Tirailleurs), the simple infantryman was not expected to take out single targets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  4. tmike Apprentice Engineer

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    I would also say the True death knal of the castle the military fortified resadinets was the death of the fuedel system. What is the defrince between a castle and a fort? a castle is some some ones permanent home. Forts and city walls adapted easily to gun powder castles did to for a time. And infact contined to be used in japan in tell after me Masie Restoration. So I would say what brought an end to castles was more social change the technological change. That being said I keep hoping some one will make a Colonel Era mod.:)
     
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  5. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    best history lecture ever on this era
     
  6. MorshuArtsInc Apprentice Engineer

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    Fun fact: Queen Elizabeth I ordered her army to adapt the musket, not because it was the superior weapon, but because the European yew had almost gone extinct because of England vast demand for longbows.
     
  7. Mirek Apprentice Engineer

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    The main weapon in the game is a longsword, and longsword was not used before 14th and wasnt common before 15th century. So 12th century is definitely wrong.
     
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  8. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    Long-sword is not even a type of sword if you want to be completely anal on the subject, it more was a description of technique recorded in the late period for using two handed swords. They most certainly existed well before this, but there is much before the 13th that we simply do not know. Iron rusts away. Things were not recorded. The Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum possesses a blade 141 cm long overall, which bears the arms of Otakar II, king of Bohemia, killed in the battle of Durrenkrut by Rudolf of Hapsburg in 1278. This indicates the weapon existed before this time. How long before is hard to say with certainty, but signs point to 12th. :)
     
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  9. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    @Mirek Regardless of myth or fact, I think we could all agree the long-sword ("longsword") is a two handed weapon. The character in ME is only using one hand to fight with it - while holding a torch, for example.
     
  10. tmike Apprentice Engineer

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    looks more like an arming sword, A long sword would be closer to what is know as comely as a bastard sword, but some two handed swrods as well, the way I tend to think about it is it is a sword made to be used in one or two hands... where as If it can really only effectavly be used two handed your getting into great sword
     
  11. MorshuArtsInc Apprentice Engineer

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    In the end, at least regarding architecture, one can build houses that were still common up to the early 20th century.
     
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  12. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    It says longsword, so I am thinking its longsword, because one thing cannot be argued; the strength of the mighty Treebeard. A guy that pulls his own plow and carries logs over his head with a pocket full of granite could probably do it one handed.
     
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  13. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    191
    Aye, well said. He's also mastered time and space - able to enclose a furnace and bed into a small chest as well as freeze time.
     
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  14. Mirek Apprentice Engineer

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    The hilt of the sword wich you see in the quickbar looks definitely like Type 6 hilt according to Oakeshott typologi. Types 5-8 are used between 1350-1550 and i only ever saw type 6 on longswords. Also term "Bastarad sword" i only ever saw in fantasy literature in studies and scientific papers i only ever saw terms longsword/shortsword according to the lenght of the blade and onehanded/one and half handed/twohanded according to usage, so i gues term longsword is correct. aLso the end of the hilt depicted in the quickbar menu ( i dont know the english term, in my language term "hlavice" is used) , looks like TYpe H,J,K or R type (still Oakeshott) wich wasnt wery common before 14th century types A-E were common in early medieval times. If the character uses the sword onehanded is irelevant, Longswords can be used onehanded except 16th century Doublehanded sword, but Double handed swords were not comonly used in middleages according to my knowledge.

    https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2012/AEA_59/um/mece.pdf

    Mind, that all the terms i know are in czech language and terms that i use here are my translation to english, so the correct english term my be different as sometimes terminology differs between countries and their languages.
     
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  15. Ciero9 Trainee Engineer

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    These videos offer some great information about different types of swords.





    He also has numerous videos about castles.
     
  16. Yurets Trainee Engineer

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    I more like this guy :)
     
  17. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    best thread ever.

    @Mirek you are thinking more like 1300-1340?
     
  18. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    Its whatever, Oakeshott is for late period topology, surely its fair to also compare Wheeler or Petersen topology, heck why not also check out Geibig's? I would because Oakeshott states you cannot date a sword by its morphology.
    :)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  19. Mirek Apprentice Engineer

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    @Ciero9 @Yurets I dont know i usualy dont believe Youtube videos, 9 of 10 are usualy wrong i rather search for published university papers.
    @ibisgrunk Hmm could be, but iam thinking more like 1350-1400 if you are asking what period i would gues ME is fittend in.
    @Ghostickles Wheeler peterson and Geibig only deals with Viking swords, and the sword in ME is clearly not of the early medieval type so no.

    Also. I hope everione here is aware that ME cannot be fited to any historical period, and this discussion is just for fun.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
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  20. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    The bastard sword is called bastard because of what?
    Not because glorious basterds wielded them... but because it is the compromise between standard sword and a bi-hander, being somewhere in the middle of their respective lengths.
    Yes I have one.
    --- Automerge ---
    What is 'long' in regards of a sword length certainly lays in the eyes of the beholder. I am very confident Roman soldiers with their baby-size 'Gladius' type labeled all barbarian Celtic swords long... It's even hard to imagine the opponents fencing.
     
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  21. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    Yes, exactly, they deal in early swords. I'm just saying its fair to see if there is also a comparison to the pommel from early topography instead of just using a late one. Geibig will cover a greater span of time than any of these. :)
    Also, this is only for fun because the game is more a medieval mash up than a game based in historical fact. I've learned a few things from this thread already and am looking forward to more. Thanks. :)
     
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