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What multiplayer REALLY needs... [ANTI-GRIEF MEASURE SUGGESTION]

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by Louisthau, Jan 8, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Crusader Apprentice Engineer

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    177
    Agreed, is needed.
     
  2. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    348
    PVP does not need more carebear features. It is already near impossible to find other players, just go out there in space and hide like a hermit. That's what 99% of players already do on 'PVP' servers anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

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    824
    Personally I dislike the idea, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be added. So long as its optional I don't see the harm in some kind of block protection. People who dislike it can leave it disabled, while those who want it get to have such protection.

    Just to throw my own suggestion out there. What if heavy armor was not grindable with hand tools? (make it optional of course)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Not all multiplayer is PVP.
     
  5. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    I think all armor blocks should not be grindable with hand tools along with some other borderblocks like conveyors hangar doors normal doors and perhaps also even bulletproof windows and perhaps a few others i can't directly think off.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Dr. Novikov Apprentice Engineer

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    263
    1. Disable spawning with tools. People should make tools, not just have an infinite supply.
    2. Nerf jetpack. Make it work like the one that we have in Hellion or Star Citizen. It should be barely enough to get out of a hole on a planet, and it should have poor acceleration and maneuvering. Want to move faster -- get in a ship. Spacesuits are for EVA, not for chasing down ships and evading gatling fire.
    3. Make it possible to hide. No radars, no stupid 1000 m sensors.
    4. Make it necessary to go to certain known areas in order to acquire resources that everyone needs all the time.
    5. Make turrets viable. Add accuracy to the turrets, nerf accuracy for players, thus making them come closer, not just snipe turrets off when there is no base owner online.
    6. Let players make drones. Maybe even some drone AI block, like in From the Depths. Let people deploy drones around their bases. Yes, I am aware of scripts, but a lot of server admins disable PBs.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  7. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    1. partly agree yet i can't think of making high tech tools with your bare hands this isn't rust.
    2. disagree the jetpack is THE thing wich makes space engineers diffrent from other survival games
    3.disagree as well the maps are to big and to underpopulated for this, if you want to play solo play a single player game
    4.partly agree as well more clusters with lots of resources and the ability to find these clusters from great distances would be suitable yes.
    5.agree as wel, homing missiles are possible for 50 years now i doubt they will forget this tech in the future
    6. agree BUT! we must make sure that every ship is costum by the player and players would not have rediculessly amounts of ships wich greatly increases lag.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. Dr. Novikov Apprentice Engineer

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    263
    1. You have a high tech assembler for making high tech tools.
    2. No, jetpack is not the thing that makes Space Engineers different. Engineering makes Space Engineers different. Jetpacks just make it ridiculously easy to "raid" (grind down unmanned bases).
    3. This is space, not some retarded Rust or other pseudo-survival game. Not being able to hide = being griefed = not being able to build a fleet = no proper PVP.
    4. Related to 3. Let people hide, but make it necessary to risk and have PVP action in a well-known area. This will provide a lot more PVP, and people will actually have something to PVP with.
     
  9. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

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    382
    Step one: Find a base to loot.
    Step two: Grab 30 steel plates from your base.
    Step three: Fly 4,000 meters above the enemy base, using you jetpack.
    Step four: Spam large grid blast door blocks.
    Step five: Enter and loot the enemy base using the new "door" you just made.
    Step six: Build underground.

    Attack ships required 0, planning required 0.0%. Long story short your idea is a good idea. However, it's nearly impossible to stop lazy pirates, without breaking the game.
     
  10. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    That´s pretty much the nature of PVP, unless it´s carefully balanced it just ends being a curbstomp battle where one side didn´t even have a chance.

    That´s just the nature of allowing players kill each other.

    SE simply doesn´t lend itself as of now for a pure "PVP" state, it´s not properly tuned for that.
    --- Automerge ---
    Make it so it works like a claim block and it disables any enemy medbays within range, plus adding a medbay respawn cooldown and cost to respawning, now you can´t simply spam yourself at the defenses and have to actually plan your approach more carefully, be it using a drone, or doing it yourself and risking getting killed if not careful.

    You can still punish a wonkily defended base with ease, but you can too get punished if you´re not careful. This way skillful building is rewarded by slowing attackers; making them vulnerable, and skillful attackers that planned ahead of time and are careful can potentially run a very profitable operation.

    No more spawning with tools too
    Also potentially make hydrogen bottles not be able to be consumed while flying, thus relevating the jetpack in planets to 8 sec short bursts.

    A poorly defended base should not stall a prepared attacker and a poorly prepared attacker should not be able to take a well defended base.
     
  11. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    I feel as if there's an important distinction lost here as to what a griefer actually is. I don't consider someone who enters a server and raids a player base to be a griefer. Griefers are those people that will join up with your faction and then plant warheads all over your stuff and act like nothing happened. Griefers will spawn into a brand new spawn ship, and ram it full speed into the nearest player creation... Not for gain, or for material, or even to engage in PvP... the only purpose is for lulz. Griefers will actively avoid playing the game per se and instead just make every effort to ensure the other people playing the game are being annoyed/irritated/angered by their actions. That is the only purpose of a griefer (you can tell because as soon as it becomes clear they can't fvck with anyone they go find another server.) I long ago learned to recognize the telltale signs of griefers... and to avoid making any sort of alliances with them, or indeed to let them anywhere near anything I've ever built, enjoyed, or even kind of liked. Real players are just as easy to spot because the first thing they will do, is get their sh*t straight... find resources, set up a base, defend said base, and keep wary of all other players... because they too know to watch out for griefers. Doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE, griefers are just out to watch the world burn and giggle impotently at those they have inconvenienced.

    When I was hosting a server I disabled respawn tools, increased respawn times by 100x and generally made it a pain in the ass for anyone who wasn't there to legitimately do the survival thing... and it worked fairly well at discouraging griefers. Nothing makes them find another server faster than finding out they have to wait a whole day to farm spawn ships to ram people with.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    How to make a drone: 3 gps points around your base-> build small fighter and slpa rc block -> select circle or patrol with gps points -> notice that your base is now being looked after by a flying turret.

    With little more trouble you can make drone land based too so that it can be sustained by a solar panel.
     
  13. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    agreed but with respawn timers i also rage quited when the buggy space engineers did something terrible with the starter ship...
    Had it very often on multiplayer servers the game decided to take a 3 second break wich made my starter ship crash into something...
    And if i then have to look for another server i just escape the game and i say okay let's try again in another 3 months...
     
  14. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

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    50
    I feel the idea of a core block or whatever is needed. If anything just make gringing/welding/digging take 10-20x longer or something with an ownership block placed. There already is the bounding block. At the end of the day its a PVP game, so pvp is what there is to do. Need better methods to defend against attacks and recover from losses. Empyrion does this well with a bank, economy, and blueprint purchasing system. Get your ship blown up you spent a week building? Save the blueprint, go to the trader and as long as you have the required mats/credits you can buy your ship back and then spawn it in wherever thereby making replacing/moving a base easier. The trader mod already handles ship/mayerial purchasing/sales
     
  15. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    While I agree that PvP is one of the more tantalizing aspects of what this game could be... saying that it's a PvP game I couldn't disagree with more... it's a physics and construction/block sandbox with no RPG elements... though now that I think about it, and RPG element to this game could be pretty sweet... But KSH may have already bitten off more than they can chew on this one, but I digress. At the end of the day the game is about creation and using creativity to solve problems you find in the world, or to overcome barriers and move into new, previously inaccessible locations using only what you can collect and your wits to slap them together into a solution. PvP could be an enjoyable, even critical element to this, but it's just as much PvE as PvP, and a LOT of people only play single player... and I can't think of a single PvP game that you can play with any amount of entertainment value alone, for hundreds... if not thousands of hours.

    I Do think that an "ownership" block would be something to look into for certain, simply because there's no point in attacking a base when you can just mine under it and drill through its sensitive bits well away from guns. And while I consider that a legitimate strategy, I think any mode of attack should have a means to be defended against... But that ideal right there swings right back around to the "Using creativity to solve problems" bit. If you're creative enough... even a burrowing/grinding attack on your base could be repelled.

    @Sagi
    I Agree sometimes the game will destroy your stuff for no good reason, one of its more irritating habits... but as a general rule when I was hosting a server I'd paste in a spawnship for anyone that lost it due to legitimate buggery. But Not all admins are as present or keen to help.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  16. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    My two sense.

    Claim Block should disable drilling in its claimed area by hostiles, and neutrals.
    Owned Large Grids can not have their blocks "grinded" by neutrals and hostiles hand drills. By default. Utility blocks, such as doors may be ground down. However it is still a option to blast your way through a hull, breach it with a drop pod, or grind through with ship welders. This could be balanced by making the protection block need a physical connection to a large block, such as a large reactor. Making it, easier to find and hard to hide. Also Have it use a ridiculous amount of power so when you are on, you have to balance your power usage. And when you are off for long periods of time it will force you to turn off all your production blocks if you want to keep it on, thus reducing strain on the server. This can scale to the mass of the grid, making it the larger zone it protects the more power it needs, so if you have a large ship and you stay off for more then a day or two it drains your power. Keeping player coming back. Or risk loosing their grid again.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    I completely agree with every word you just said and that doesn't happen alot!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    50
    Something I thought about for bases is something like the concrete block that is large grid only along with a core block and shields. Before you rahe see what I day about sbields, and you dont lime em dont play with em, I just like them and the are a good way to make a base WAY more durable vs ships on a planet especially.
    The concrete block should be a block that is super dense and super heavy and very resistant to explosions and bullets(also radiation if we ever get it). The concrete would be insanely heavy, very disproportionate to their strength compared to current steel. Concrete weigh have 4 times the hp of steel, but 10-20 times the weight. Added bonus is its made with gravel so gives that a use.
    The could be like 2 grades(or more i want to see more materials in se, just iron is dumb) , regular and reinforced. Possibly could have all the concrete break if converted to a ship do to structural integrity unless it is reinforced. Be kinda cool to like convert the corr of a base to a ship and have all the surrounding concrete break away.
    Already existing in a mod, but armor panels that are bullet/explosion resistant catwalk type blocks that you could put on light ships for more survivabilty or based to reinforce.
    But basically we need some stuff that is for bases only that for one reason or another you cany put it in a ship. Unrelated I really like shields for pvp and blueprint buyback using a trader/credit system like empyrion.
    --- Automerge ---
    Also have players start only knowing how to make basic items l, and either have to find or buy blueprints to make perfect copies of items, hrinding only allows you to build a less efficient heavy version or something. Maybe you have to grind down multiple blocks of the same block, like grind down 10 small reactors to be able to build one. Add respawn timers or use parachute drop podsand no more noob ship ramming.
     
  19. Mosseman Apprentice Engineer

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    195
    Invulnerability Field Generator (large grid block)

    While online, has the following effects within a ~1km radius:

    Players cannot be harmed.
    Voxels cannot be changed (no mining)
    Small grids cannot be damaged.
    Large grids cannot be damaged.
    Station grids cannot be damaged.
    New grids cannot be created.
    Merge blocks function, but cannot be used to join two separate grids.
    New blocks cannot be placed.
    Partially built blocks cannot be modified.
    Blocks cannot be repaired (or ground down).
    Block ownership cannot be changed.
    Grids cannot be converted between station/ship.

    IFG requires a fairly lengthy spool up period before it takes effect(~15min).
    If the IFG moves while spooling up or running, it deactivates and must begin a new spool up cycle.
    IFG cannot be activated while inside another IFG field.
    IFG has a high(ish ~1MW) power requirement.
    IFG acts like a beacon with a ~1km broadcast range that cannot be turned off while operating.
    IFG spool up process causes beacon effect to flash on UI - this effect cannot be turned off.

    The IFG is designed to work in a PvP sandbox MP survival setting, allowing people to log off while assured their home won't get raided while they're offline.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  20. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    Not being damaged att all?!
    i completly agree on the creation, mining and grinding part but things like weapons and ramming should still have an effect.
    You must be able to defend yourself but it still has to be possible to breach your defences...
    and since you say it will onle work when online it wil promote even more to attack offline players who happen to run out of energy...
     
  21. Mosseman Apprentice Engineer

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    195
    When the module is online; whether or not the owner is online is irrelevant.
    Remember: you can't modify the grid in any way while it's online, so if you want to repair it or expand, etc you'll need to offline it, giving potential aggressors a chance to attack. Even if it's online all the time, they can force it offline by blocking doors and connectors by attaching ships with landing gears, forcing you to turn off the IFG so you can deal with them.
     
  22. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    this sounds awfull...
     
  23. Mosseman Apprentice Engineer

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    195
    How so? There's currently one big flaw that I see with the presented design, but I think I've got something that should put a stop to that.

    Edit:

    Calibration

    The issue with the proposed rules is the abuse from players wishing to keep themselves as safe as possible, even when they need to take the IFG offline. As an example, a defending player could run two IFG blocks, spooling each one up a few minutes apart. As a result, their operation would only present a window of time roughly half of what was intended. Obviously, the more IFG blocks used, the shorter this window would be and the harder it would be for an aggressor to make an attack. This is unfun and tedious to fight against as an agressor and unfun and tedious to manage as a defender, so it's not something I want to see become commonplace.

    This is where calibration comes in. The rules are complex and convoluted, but the short of it is that spamming IFGs in the hopes of making yourself nigh impossible to attack isn't possible.

    Here's how it works:

    A calibration cycle lasts ~15 minutes and during this time, a new spool up cycle cannot be started.
    If the spool completes or cancels (for any reason), all IFGs within ~1km must recalibrate before they can spool up.
    Spooling isn't canceled if a nearby spool is canceled.
    The calibration cycle starts upon block construction.
    The calibration cycle starts when block stops moving.
     
  24. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    that's where you go wrong...
    The rules should be simple and obvious.
    Yes you need to be able to defend yourself and the attack should be forced into sacreficing stuff to attack you, weither it be ammo or seriously damaging his own vehicle.
    But complete invulnrability is out of the question even if you can do stuff to force your enemy out of hiding. The pvp element is completly destroyed by that...
     
  25. Mosseman Apprentice Engineer

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    195
    I prefer the mantra "The rules should be as simple and obvious as possible." The IFG is easy to use, provided you don't try to get too clever with it. The calibration rules only come into play when someone attempts to cycle multiple generators one after the other in an attempt to artificially reduce their spool up time. We could go without them, but then we'd have the issue with people spamming their spooling cycles, to the detriment of the enjoyment of all. If there's a simpler way, I'd love to hear it.

    Complete invulnerability is fine, provided it comes at a cost. Not only do you need to worry about the possibility of someone harassing your base to force an IFG shutdown, but if you wish to make any meaningful progress, you'll need to leave the safety of the invulnerability field. If you want a new ship, if you want to make modifications or repairs, if you want to mine, if you want to break down a damaged ship for parts and just generally accomplish something that isn't basically inventory management, you'll either need to leave the invulnerability field or shut it down, which leaves you open to attack from other players.
     
  26. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

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    50
    Honestly the current shield mod works pretty well, at least a month or 2 ago. Stack up enough power in a bad and it will never take damage. For pvp it needs balance but buffing say the recharge rate when all faction members are offline and nerfing it when they come back. Have a 15 min cool down to prevent combat logging and go.
     
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