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Why have atmosphere?

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Kylar_Reed, Apr 8, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Kylar_Reed

    Kylar_Reed Trainee Engineer

    This is following onto my last post:

    So the devs have said that programming small ships and wireless is going to be a thing.

    Responses from Iama:
    Q15)Will we be able to have separate cockpits control different things? For example, one controlling the Hanger Door, one for Piloting, one for weapons, etc?
    A15) Probably not - because the way it works is that you are connected to the grid (ship or station) and you can communicate with any system in it. Once we add wireless, you would be able to do this on distance.
    <hr />Q9) So what do you think of AI and drone ships that you can either remotely control or program to do different tasks (such as constructing or mining ) ? And also will there be batteries in the nearish future? And what about fast travel to different sectors with different asteroids in it and maybe even dead ships and other stations to deconstruct or reconstruct?
    A9) Once there's programming, players will be able to make simple drones for mining. For construction we're considering constructor...similar to 3D printers, you'll build cage and head and it will take materials and build ships or station. Batteries make much more sense now with solar panels, but I cannot confirm it now. In next update, there will be some ships to loot and deconstruct. Travelling is ok for single player, but problematic for multiplayer, because every sector would need a new host/dedicated server instance, we can't promise it now.

    MY IDEA!

    I say we make spacesuits/jetpacks less reliable and space more dangerous. Make it so that staying in your base/large ship in your stable preasurised cabin controling drones is the prefered option.

    Also make some new components for small ships, a grinder, welder and arm(To place blocks).

    I want to be SCARED when I go on a space walk.

    Edit: Food and water and sleep and stuff would also be cool
  2. dragonslife

    dragonslife Apprentice Engineer

    This guy is a genious and he's right, I feel the same way, going in to space should be dangerous and not necessary unless an emergency occurs. Even then you barely go out in your bare spacesuit fixing stuff on the outside of your stuff. You use a smaller ship with some welder arms for it.
  3. cpy

    cpy Trainee Engineer

    Thing now is that if you die, you get new ship that is full of stuff you can take apart... well that's not cool, i want option if you die you spawn in space if you don't have medic station or spawn in designated medic station so multiple astronauts can use it as spawn point, or maybe some more compact hybernation chambers?
  4. xwhitemousex

    xwhitemousex Apprentice Engineer

    Survival mode should have emergencies as a risk in everyday life as a space engineer. The meteor showers is one example of a risk that can cause damage or even fatalities in your life in space.

    Next we should have system malfunctions as well.

    Your jetpacks thrusters stop working.
    Your jetpacks thrusters get stuck and keep pushing you in one direction.
    The oxygen support in your suit stops working, or has reduced efficiency.
    Your energy banks start leaking so you bleed energy faster.
    Your energy banks are going critical and risk exploding.

    Next, apply those things to small and large ships as well, in addition to...

    Rotors jam.
    Rotors are stuck and keep rotating.
    Mining drills overload.
    Weapons start to misfire.
    Ammunition is dud.


    Give us some risks in space!
  5. Vermillion

    Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Isn't this your third thread on pressurized interiors? Give it a rest dude. The Devs said "no", deal with it.
  6. Kylar_Reed

    Kylar_Reed Trainee Engineer

    When did the devs say no? Stop making up things man.
  7. Maul555

    Maul555 Apprentice Engineer

    I forget where exactly I saw it, but the devs are not too "keen" (pun intended) on this idea right now. However they have said that they want to make this game very open to the modding community, so I think it is a very safe bet that you will see pressurized interiors and food in the future no matter what happens.
  8. Vermillion

    Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Devs have no real need to take off your suit and will therefore never have pressurized interiors. Saying "i'd like to" or "I want to" are not "We need to". There is no reason to have pressurized interiors except for idiots who want to "just because" or at worst "I want to afk and not worry about dying". Which you can already do by simply sitting in your cockpit.

    How about this one?
  9. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    Erm Vermillion...
    That's a sum up that isn't the actual exact words of the devs. Thanks for highlighting a small part, but really if you read the whole sentence (How one usually does) they are WORRIED it will be a useless feature. They want there to be a REASON to take off your suit and use pressurised interiors... This suggestion by OP (Awesome idea, I like) is a good attempt at creating that reason.
  10. wankerstein

    wankerstein Apprentice Engineer

    "Staying in your base/large ship in your stable pressurized cabin controlling drones" sounds awful to me. I hope that is not what Space Engineers becomes.
  11. Feanarang

    Feanarang Trainee Engineer

    This. OP is simply making suggestions for why atmosphere would be something worth implementing and not a useless feature. He's doing exactly what the devs have asked for regarding this feature...

    I think it's a great idea as well, and I think it makes total sense. Obviously Space Engineers won't become a game where you just sit in your pressurized ship and control drones - but the ability to have the goal of automation is awesome.

    Also, Vermillion? Immediately shutting down suggestions you don't agree with is a GREAT way to stifle creativity. The devs have shown that they want to listen to the community - it'd be nice if all community members respected this.
  12. Hatchie

    Hatchie Apprentice Engineer

    I also really really dislike the idea of very complex drones capable of doing everything while you just lay back. Controling ships yes, but in limited range so you have to fly near asteroid and than start your mining drone manually controled. Not like sitting in your base, navigating ship half sector away and let automatic mining drones do all the work.
  13. Fixer

    Fixer Apprentice Engineer

    Reposting here:
    Apparently the oldest big argument/discussion/debate going on at the moment is the idea of pressurized environments in ships.

    This leads me to think on the idea of why anyone would WANT to pressurize a ship in outer space. Answer: To be able to breathe, move and sleep comfortably, to conduct experiments requiring oxygen, to grow living things.

    The flip side is to figure out why anyone would NOT want to pressurize a ship. Answer: No risk of fire, explosive decompression, bacteria/illness/disease, etc.

    In Space Engineers it is assumed that your space suit feeds you, recycles your wastes, generates oxygen, keeps your body clean and free of infection, and provides comfort at least equivalent to a sleeping bag, all for the expense of pure electricity. Healing can even take place if you hook it up to a medical bay, presumably for some specialized chemicals you might need that aren't 'stored' well in the suit.

    Space engineers has no horticulture, farming, or experimentation. Breathing and sleeping comfortably are presumed to happen in the space suit.

    Thus, I can see no realistic argument WHY Space Engineers would want to pressurize their environments. They gain nothing, and risk quite catastrophic disasters by pressurizing environments.

    So, without some hugely compelling reason I can't deduce, I see no reason why the developers should add code to the game that allows oxygenated areas.
  14. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    Fixer, I refer you to my reply on the other thread :woot: I'm too lazy to repost it :woot:

    EDIT: Decided to copy it in for other people

  15. Beezilbub

    Beezilbub Apprentice Engineer

    I really don't want to see food, sleep, waste disposal added to the game except as a mod. Adding these things would take away from what the game is and what makes it so much fun.

    The question that needs to be answered is how could pressurized environments be used to enhance the engineering aspect of the game? Would certain components need to be constructed in a pressurized environment in order to make them? That's just one off the top of my head. If that were so it could add a really cool hazard aspect to the game (explosive depressurization, fires, etc.),and a need for oxygen. This could branch off into a need for a hydroponics section to generate the oxygen. But without something like that I don't really see a use for it unless you are one of those who really dig making sure you take a dump and get some sleep on a schedule. Honestly I doubt there are enough people who do want that in this game. I'm certainly not in that group.
  16. Fixer

    Fixer Apprentice Engineer

    My point:

    Why would a Space Engineer WANT a pressurized environment?
    Pros: Nothing that isn't handled by his space suit.
    Cons: Fire, Disease, Decompression, bodily functions, eating manually, etc.

    The Space Engineer would get nothing from getting out of his spacesuit but a greater risk of death and greater inconvenience.
  17. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    From a possible point of view, one could get dramatically improved build times out of their suit in a pressurised shipyard due to the increased dexterity of depressurised bare hands/thinner gloves.
  18. Fixer

    Fixer Apprentice Engineer

    That assumes that dexterity is limited by these suits. They are designed for Space Engineers, so I expect they are highly functional.

    Even so, would an increase in dexterity warrant the increased risks of fire, disease, decompression, etc?

    From a purely rational/logical point of view, I cannot see that mild increase in dexterity justifies all the negatives.
  19. Crescent42

    Crescent42 Trainee Engineer

    Listen, everyone keeps mentioning disease in conjunction with oxygen. This isn't a life simulator game. It's just not, nor is it coded for it, and I really don't want it to be. Sure, I think the more "spacey" features the better; I love figuring out problems with friends, pretending to be crackerjack NASA guys. But disease? If you want a life sim there's plenty of disease and mods to kill you on Skyrim.

    Oxygen, imo, doesn't give enough good points to warrant it being coded into the game. There's nothing I can think of other than disasters that could come about from oxygen and pressurized environments. There's just no use for it in space when the suit takes care of all that for you. If you want realism you seriously need to consider how many sparks an angle grinder throws off, and what the ramifications are if just one of those sparks burns through your suit or visor, let alone what happens when nuclear power sources. That's more of a realistic problem a space engineer would have to consider. And handling the components to make rotors and engines? You're just slapping on steel tubes, computers, and steel plates - that's realism? If it was we'd need to assemble some ducktape to hold these ships together.

    A pressurized environment, however cool an explosive decompression would be, is as far as I can tell much less productive than a 0 grav one. How many times have you flown in upside down and backwards to repair landing gear on a ship in a super tight spot? You can't do that in a pressurized compartment. There's just no use for them, we have gravity and if you're so keen on them just add a little habbit for yourself to build in air locks and use those accordingly.

    All that said here is what I have to say in favor of oxygen and atmosphere.

    Later down the road - much later - after conveyors, drones, and 3d printers

    If a development were to be made on another "life bar" then I think it should be oxygen. IF you look at modern day SCUBA rebreathers the technology is already there to have an extended temporary oxygen sustaining system. However I don't believe it can sustain a never ending circulation of scrubbed air. In this case an extremely slow depletion of an oxygen meter is "technically" warranted. If we're to say that's enough to code it into the game then a hydroponics lab might be a viable reason to put oxygen into the game BUT I would make it a closed module that you should interact with, like the med station, to refill your o2 supply. I don't want to go inside and have another duty of feeding the little plants, watering them (and I know people would get up on water being put into the game too), de-bugging them, making sure the temperature is right, so-on and so-on. That's a whole different game all together. Just make it so we slap together some bullet proof glass, computers, maybe....algae samples, and construction components. Boom, reason for o2 in a box you only have to mess with to fill up again.

    That's it though - that's the most put together plan I can think of and the only reason to need o2. Like someone said earlier, if you want o2 then stay in touch with the modding community. The devs have a lot more on their plates than coding something they've stayed away from since the beginning.
  20. mo8ius

    mo8ius Apprentice Engineer

    It's interesting actually, there are a lot of points here that I've never even thought about, they certainly aren't things that I feel are considerations in the game I play - which I think goes to show that even a 'relatively' simple game as this Alpha build is already appealing a lot of different play styles, and that there are features that some feel are necessary and others feel are definitely not part of SE. I've seen several people ask for aliens to be brought in and several other discussions on features I'm less enthusiastic about too.

    For me, guns and factions and multiplayer war isn't something that's important. But I totally see that that is a feature that a bunch of people want badly. On the flip side I would dearly love more depth in the 'life systems' features of the game, and I can see that to a bunch of people that's not something that's at all in the SE they play.

    My argument for adding in Life Engineering systems (complex life support needs of some sort, whatever form that takes) is something like this:

    This is survival mode and I just don't see a reason to build anything other than the basic stuff right now. I had a lot of fun over the last couple of weeks building things and making ships and stations.

    After that initial "wow" factor and wayyy too much time spent building things, I'm finding that survival is too easy at this stage. I realise this is Alpha and I guess that's why we're having these discussions about things we'd like to see implemented.

    For me, a more detailed depiction of the life systems would greatly enhance the "Engineering" aspect of the game, since for me engineering is about having a goal and overcoming the challenges to get there. If the goal is to just "not die" then having a refinery, reactor,cockpit and a drill is all you need. Just dig into an asteroid, discard anything but Uranium, refine the Uranium, jam it in the reactor and sit in your cockpit chair until you need to go mine more Uranium.

    The only thing that's dangerous is the Alpha buggy terrain deforming in a strange way and squashing you (or being dumb, but after dying a lot being dumb I learned not to do dumb things that kill me), or the new hell-from-above asteroids (which you can just avoid easily enough by not building where they are).

    So, adding in engineering challenges for creating life sustaining systems (to keep you alive) seems to me a really big plus point. It means that all those people making space ships with interiors will have a purpose! It means those cool looking space stations we love will be more beneficial than a rectangle of light armour with a reactor, refinery and cockpit on them.

    Is it the most important thing to add? not at all. But for me neither is adding in Factions and completing large ship weapons - I could say: "this game is about engineering, not about shooting things!"

    But then, there's a big engineering aspect to making ships that shoot, and ships that can get shot and not explode. Just like there'd be big engineering challenges in creating life system to sustain your astronaut(s) though whatever sandbox adventures they have.
  21. extraammo

    extraammo Senior Engineer

    I there are blocks that need oxygen then it would make sense to have pressurized hulls. Maybe machines/blocks exposed to a pressurized system should run more efficiently due to cooling benefits? Then adding an atmosphere is a way of upgrading your ship rather than adding an obstacle. Note, I'm not saying add heat management but have heat be the explanation behind better efficiency.

    If exposing refineries, assemblers, reactors, or whatever to air helps them run better then that seems like a good investment decision. Other benefits could be that your suit doesn't lose energy to life support when inside. Tools might could operate faster due to air cooling as well.

    This would keep the focus on ship engineering instead of astronaut management.
  22. mo8ius

    mo8ius Apprentice Engineer

    I like that idea extrammo, about some systems working more efficiently with atmosphere/cooling. Made me think that eventually I'd like to see a 'zero-g refinery' and a 'gravity' refinery too!

    Maybe there'd be benefits to refining some things in vacuum and some things in atmosphere, and some things in zero-g and some with in a gravity field. Like you can make an alloy of some type to make more advanced components in a Zero-G refinery, if you try it in a regular refinery you'll just get a mess (or it explodes!).
  23. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    Well by purely looking at the suit's gloves, and basing it off the thickness of those gloves, and estimating based off of relative thicknesses of spacesuit materials currently (Using Felix Baumgartner's suit since it's one of the most advanced) I would say that actually there's a notable increase in dexterity to be gained by jumping out of your suit. This could allow massively shortened welding and grinding times.

    As said by Crescent42, why bring disease into it? If we don't have food/water, do we need disease, and if we have medbays that can create flash-clones upon the death of the previous, would disease really have an impact anyway?

    I agree with a lot of what you said, but I wanted to just touch on a few things.

    1. There is plenty of use for oxygenated and pressurised areas, including dexterity and mobility (think about the gaps you could move through without a big old backpack on your back).

    2. If you want realism you also have to consider how our nuclear fission reactors burn through so much uranium so quickly. This is, as with everything in Space Engineers, about gameplay as much as it is about aspiring to be realistic.

    3. How do pressurised areas affect our jetpack abilities? From a realistic point of view, it's actually the gravity that should affect it really (Of course the jetpack happens to ignore grav but that's for another thread)

    4. You say we can just build like there is pressurisation, but surely if they add it, like with other block features like grav gens, you're free to not use it. Your ships will be safer in your eyes, and people can build pressurised ships if they want to.

    5. I agree that it should come later. There's a lot of things to get in, and the game is not really any less playable for a lack of interior atmospheres.

    6. I also agree that really we should have oxygen replenishment in the game from a realism standpoint, since modern-day rebreathers work by just recycling the oxygen in your breath that you don't use, and supplementing it with an external supply. Unless we're using reactor-powered suits (I think they're just running off highly-developed batteries) I don't see how we can be splitting up stuff to produce oxygen, and anyway high concentration oxygen doesn't do you any favours.
  24. ProfessorFalken

    ProfessorFalken Apprentice Engineer

    Another thing that would help force people to want to leave their suits would be to greatly reduce the efficiency of the suit thrusters. Right now, you can travel 10-15km and only use 10% of your power...
  25. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    Well that doesn't exactly force them out of the suit so much as force them into a ship.
  26. extraammo

    extraammo Senior Engineer

    I think there is a faulty assumption here that having atmospheres is the same as being able to take your suit off. Honestly, there is no good reason to take of this advanced and flexible suit that we have, even with an atmosphere. However, like I said in my previous post, there could be a gain for ship systems with the addition of pressurized compartments being greater efficiency of machines.
  27. Conradian

    Conradian Moderator

    Well what's the point of pressurisation if we can't take our pressurised suit off? Technically with advanced radiator systems it could be more efficient to radiate the heat of a ship's systems into the cold emptiness of space.
  28. radam

    radam Senior Engineer

    Then again, liquid cooling is more efficient than air. That is, heat transport.
  29. Crescent42

    Crescent42 Trainee Engineer

    You are correct on all your accounts, and I can see your points. I've thought over them and maybe I just can't wrap my head around it. (It happens more than I'd like admit lol).

    Other than making a compact ship or space station what small areas would we need to squeeze through that the suits aren't able to get into now? I can see making a small hallway as being beneficial on a floor space smart ship but lets also consider what's already in the game. We have predetermined block sizes, interior blocks and passage ways, and doors. These things are all set up so that the suits can get through them with no problems. I'm not counting the infuriating seconds it takes to get aligned right with a door way to jetpack through it. That is an issue that would still persist with air locks.

    Maybe you could make a pressurized hangar to build ships in, sure, but would it really be beneficial and more productive that way? Or is it better to construct a ship in 0g with access to every angle imaginable with the help of a jetpack. And you've pointed out exactly why I didn't bring the jetpacks specifically into this conversation, lol. As some others have - they're just too reliable right now. I can go much faster in my suit that I can in most ships with less problems.

    In theory you could travel the whole galaxy with just your suit, a drill, and the components for a steel grid, small reactor, and cockpit in your inventory. I would like to see their speed significantly decreased as well as changes in energy output in and out of grav zones. BUT that's a whole other thread.

    mo8ious made the point that I think we're all trying to get at; survival is just too easy atm. From what I can see we aren't complaining about that but we're putting our heads together to come up with ways to make it more interactive/immersive/and dynamic, like a survival could be. Right now my whole plan in survival is to build a tunneling miner, move into an asteroid and wait for the meteors to blow over.

    Cooling, as far as I can tell ( again this is just me), is moot. Space is 3 Kelvin, that's pretty darn cold.

    Maybe....maybe....once factions are completed, or we get NPCs aboard ships pressurization would play a much bigger role. What if you wanted a mining transport but didn't want to have a shoot out? Just grind off a block and out every one goes....but that's too easy. No, no.

    Pressurization is too much of a target to take advantage of. If some have it and some don't then those that don't are at a crippling disadvantage. Now I know some of you will say "that's our choice" but think about a base you've put weeks into building and two knuckle heads come along and grind off a few blocks. Out you go into space (probably with your suit off = dead) and they move in and keep it 0g. You're not just in the dog house. The dog house isn't even in your yard anymore.

    If that's how it worked then I'd say about 70% of the people would work with no pressurization and stay in their suits. The other 25% are probably going to be in friendly servers with no friendly fire and total team work. That's great for them but it's only 25% of the players, not enough to code it out for.

    The last 5% are masochistic nerf herders that would play with pressure in a "PvP" server and then complain it's too big of a target....until they don't use it anymore.

    Oxygen I'm coming around to, but also don't think its a necessary thing. Pressurization, while real and true to life, has more negative points than positive ones.

    Has anyone considered that maybe the devs don't want to do it because they would have to work up new models for the players? Then they would have to allow customization of the characters, and clothes, and makeup. That's like living with an alcoholic, a crack addict, and a gold digger all in the same house. It's too much.
  30. ctiberious

    ctiberious Apprentice Engineer

    Just to make a side point, having pressure and atmosphere has nothing to do with gravity. You could have a pressurized section of a ship/station with no grav generate and use your jetpack just like you do now. Only you'd be in a pressurized environment. Adding pressure to a room doesn't mean you have gravity and vice versa.
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