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Why have atmosphere?

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Kylar_Reed, Apr 8, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Conradian Moderator

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    I wanted to reply to all your points, but it's late here, so I'll do it another time :woot: This one point though...

    I wondered if perhaps they could implement a system, similar to Minecraft's skin system, but instead of a texture map, it uses a full character model and stuff. This allows the devs to leave character models outside of suits to the players, and allows the players to create some potentially alien characters for RP situations and the like.

    Being a coder myself though I can see this being quite resource intensive for syncing across servers, but dedicated servers could alleviate this some.
     
  2. Communist Penguin Apprentice Engineer

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    In a vacuum you don't need to use energy in order to move, only to accelerate, so by this logic you can travel infinity km with very little power if you have the time
     
  3. Conradian Moderator

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    Well as long as your life support holds out, which is what I think ProfessorFalken was referring to by accident.
     
  4. Morrigi Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't think it's possible for you to be any more wrong.

    http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ht.html#heat

    Space only approaches 3 Kelvin when you approach interstellar space, and even when it does there is no convection... because you're in space. The only way for heat to be dissipated without an atmosphere is by radiation.

    Because of the lack of any atmosphere (or anything else) in vacuum temperatures in space vary wildly, and because there is no convection, it can be very difficult to get rid of any excess energy you produce. (Waste heat from nuclear reactors, for example)

    For example, the International Space Station doesn't do a whole lot more than sit there, and it requires an active cooling system involving liquid ammonia and numerous radiators. If you're going to be doing stuff like running gigawatt-scale engine systems, mining drills, and firing automatic weapons, heat buildup will become a huge issue, and you will need some sort of heat sink unless your spacecraft has the general shape of a winged pancake with fins.

    Even the Space Shuttles, when they were just sitting there in orbit, required 78m<sup>2 </sup>of radiator surface and an active cooling system for the life support and essential systems. Not a single nuclear reactor involved.

    http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/basicdesign.php#id--Heat_Radiators
    Read ^

    Hell, the entire site should be required reading for everyone involved with and playing the game, devs most certainly included.
     
  5. becca Trainee Engineer

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    its sad that so many have arguments like cons explosive decompression etc etc etc ... then why did u want meteorites etc .... so u want things to punch holes in your ships but then dont want anything else to happen ...
    right now meteorites are annoying why u all wanted them pisses me off ... i loaded my save up and just left it going with my refinery going and cam back and the last 2 days of work on my ship went to waste when i realized it was a floating bit of debris half he station was riped to shreds etc etc
    i mean if they came in as more of a ooo a consequence other than the last half hour you just spent went to waste it would have been a worth wile update
    they should have made them smaller or atleast dif sizes
    my argument is if you want something like that make it worth it with some nice features that feel right other than a hole you have to find and fill in which even on normal you spend more time filling them than doing anything productive
     
  6. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    The Developers were the ones who decided on the meteor showers from the beginning. In the current state, they're not worth using at all.
    They're nothing more than boulder-shaped rockets aimed at your ships.
     
  7. extraammo Senior Engineer

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    That's the thing though. The devs don't want to add atmospheres because everyone doesn't really want atmospheres, the want to take their suit off. But these suits are amazing and there is no reason to take them off.

    The game isn't about little old astronaut man. It is about building ships and their systems. If you ever want to see atmospheres, you have to accept that the dangers of taking your suit off are way WAY more significant than what you would gain. SO, rather than focusing on the astronaut's gain, focus on the ship. I'm still think some sort of efficiency boosting cooling system that uses the air would be a good way to go.
     
  8. Kylar_Reed Trainee Engineer

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    Having the current spacesuit in survival is just lazy. The game mode for just building is called creative.

    I amoung many other players want survival mode to be about survival in the harsh environment that is space through building and gathering. If you want to survive in survival at the moment all you need to do is load your ship with enough uranium, powerd down everything but the cockpit and the reactor and sit there.
     
  9. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Survival's game mode was originally "Manual"
    The developers changed the name to "Survival" since everyone kept calling it that. It has nothing to do with eating, drinking and breathing.
     
  10. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    ignoring all of the pros and cons arguments that idiots use. its a case of features. we known keen like to offer toggle options. i think its one of the more intelligent things they do as it encourages freedom of game setup.


    honestly i would like the OPTION of creating an atmosphere with all the related requirements equipment wise such as scrubbers etc and airlocks simply because i feel it would add an extra layer of involvement to large ship creation. i like making my ships feel realistic with airlocks etc. maybe the sole positive side is the suit doesn't run down when in it through use only tool and jet pack use.

    ultimatly its a creativity toy and instead of simply saying we dont want creativity here in THAT format simply accept that its a case of YOU dont want that creaticty option and that you dont have to use it should it be implemented.

    would i want to involve hunger into my gamespace and be required to grow crops ala minecraft. not really but i would like the option to grow things and recreate the agro-ships from silent running/old BSG &lt;-- nerd factoid. the same model was used in both.

    it lets me be creative and pending on how it was done it would also allow me to create automated harvesting and planting devices.
     
  11. pirate Apprentice Engineer

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    I like to jam as many functions and systems into my general purpose ships as possible. Life support would be fun to wrestle with.
     
  12. Kylar_Reed Trainee Engineer

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    Ok the only place I have seen/heard survival being called manual mode was in one interview with marek about 8 months ago in which he said "We innitially called it manual mode but then decided to make it survival mode".

    If it was just manual mode you would not run out of energy and death wouldnt be a factor.
     
  13. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    I would like it to be added, I've said that a million times. I think it could add a lot to the game.

    If you are actively disliking this idea, because it takes away from it being a building game, To be honest I don't think you really know quite what that means. Building requires some kind of cause, you don't build unless you have forces pushing you to make something, otherwise it's just autocad, and even something like that you typically have something IRL to make, hence using it. Having more things to build, more reasons to build things up, doesn't hurt people's building game experience. Undoubtfully like everything else, you could probably turn it off if it upsets your apple cart, like every other feature the game has added, the devs are good about that. People do want this, so no one's loud and dismissive opinion is any more relevant than anyone else's.

    As to the: "The devs said no" comments: I wrote up the 2 of the bullet point lists for dev Q&amp;A sessions, and have done everything I could to become acquainted with this game's development. If you actually listened to the sources (And didn't just skim them) you would know that everything was prefaced with: "Not right now" even the things the devs admitted to liking. The reason being that there is currently a number of features the devs are trying to do, that they have deemed things that Need to be in the game. Once the "Must have's" are in, they have said numerous times now, that they will have to consider what is the next step of the game. A perfect example of this is small ship grinders and welders. This was first brought up at the Dev Q&amp;A, during the Devs vs. mods match. The comments made by the devs were basically: This is a really good idea, we all like it, but we just don't have time right now. My take on every comment regarding food and pressurized interiors has been the same, it's a possibility but not before we get all the simple machines, gravity effects, environmental hazards, ship systems, and multi-player support that the devs have already got planned for the game. There is a real possibility this will be added, just not right now, maybe sometime in beta, or after.

    What people need to focus on now, is coming up with ideas for how you make people want and need to take their helmets off, because until that question is answered, this whole thing will never become a reality.
     
  14. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Challenge: Pressurizing a room.
    Pros: Being able to walk around the inside of your ship without consuming battery power. You might as well sit in the pilot's chair and get the exact same thing.
    Cons: Extensive...
    1: Any deformation damage to one of the blocks holding in the atmosphere and you're suddenly outside your ship in front of the gatling gun that dented your armor.
    2: Explosive damage from a rocket that gets through the armor will instantly kill the player, regardless of distance from the affected area due to shockwave damage inside an insulated can.
    3: While inside your pressurized area you cannot do anything. Automated systems involving conveyors going outside the room will ALWAYS have a gap where atmosphere will leak. It's part of the model. You'll be in a sealed room.
    4: Only 2 types of blocks can effectively seal atmosphere - Light Armor Blocks and Heavy Armor Blocks. Catwalks used as walls are too thin and would simply tear like paper; Conveyors, Storage Containers, Refineries and even Interior Walls do not occupy a full block and will let atmosphere out around the edges. Explosive decompression around these edges would take the entire block out as well.
    5: The release of atmosphere will generate irregular thrust from no thrust-enabled block, requiring new thrust coding for atmospheric leaking.
    6: There is currently no way to acquire oxygen.
    7: An oxygen supply, scrubbing and filtering system is composed of too many blocks for the developers to consider and they're all single purpose.
    8: There is no visible difference between a pressurized room and an unpressurized room. So there's no "bling factor" like with lasers.
    9: Taking off the suit is an absolute no-go. It would require the entire engineer model be redone and would double the "Cons" list with all the new ways you'll die without your suit and all the problems associated with modelling different faces and bodies for the engineer.
    10: Without the insulation from the vacuum of space, Reactors would unleash their surface heat load into the atmospheric system. Reducing the reactor's efficiency and exposing the Engineer to the same kind of heat as sitting on a ship's thruster (at least).
    11: While you'll no longer consume power while inside your ship, your ship will be consuming far more power to run the atmospheric management machines. This is the con of cons for this: By pressurizing your ship, you are in fact LOSING power faster.

    Unless pressurizing your ship makes you faster, there's no cure for getting hit with a rocket.

    If there was a REAL reason to pressurize your ships and the developers agreed, I would be behind it. But there isn't and you're going about it the wrong way.
    Stop asking for an End Result, none of the implemented community suggestions have worked that way and never will it adds too much dependency on too many other suggestions. Just look at what pressurizing requires:
    1: A source of Oxygen
    2: Solid, airtight walls with no gaps.
    3: Two to four seperate machines to produce, purify, cycle and pump air. Even the refinery and assembler are the two most vital machines to survival and there's only 2 for the processing and manufacturing stage.
    4: An Airlock. You can have 2 doors next to each other, but that leaves a very small space in-between the two. You could have a whole block between them, but now you're taking up 3x3x3 space for a single airlock between 2 rooms.

    That's the bare minimum of requirements and you're asking for ALL of them at once. It will never happen, Not like that at least. If you want the developers behind it, you need to make it modular by getting the ball rolling with a simple suggestion and let them build it up themselves.
    A suggestion needs to achieve the most from a single small feature. Magnetic Landing gears opened an entirely new way to engineer ships. Solar Panel reflective surfaces gave the developers a base for making transparent textures without rewriting a huge amount of VRAGE code... and they look awesome.

    Simply suggest an Oxygen Tank for the suit, as an extra bar to go with Energy and Health.
    It's realistic and modular. Unfortunately, it's a layered suggestion; though with only one layer that was originally part of the game and removed a few months ago: Ice. It's hardly worth note.
    The reimplementation of Ice would act as an aesthetic feature, gravgun ammo and also open up a number of possibilities in terms of explosives, building materials and propulsion further down the road by utilizing the hydrogen, just not now.
    With a dependency on Air added to the Engineer, it's less of a jump to pressurized interiors. If they go for Oxygen requirements, don't expect them to jump straight to pressurized interiors.
     
  15. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    Well, it seems Vermillion really doesn't like the idea of pressurized compartments.

    With all respect, many of the "cons" you list are exactly why some people want this feature. I believe that these people, including me, find that pressurization would contribute a comfortable, immersive, and human quality to ship interiors. It may be impractical from a bare-engineering perspective, but practicality really isn't the point.

    Vermillion, you seem to frequently shoot down ideas if they do not strictly align with your vision of the game. Your signature line exemplifies this. Try viewing ideas from the perspective of other players.
     
  16. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    2,131
    Oh, no. You misunderstand.
    I like pressurized interiors. But there's no need for them. Not only do the cons outweigh the pros, they bury the pros face-down and dance a jig on their grave.
    Without a dependency on oxygen, pressurizing your ship is like filling it with Warheads simply because you think they look good. One crack in the hull and you're fucked.
    In such a case, the only challenge involved is simply not getting hit, which has nothing to do with the pressurized interiors. Worse, you'll actually move slower since Oxygen adds more mass to your ship.
     
  17. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    Keep in mind, I don't think anything would force you to pressurize your ship. I'm sure it would be a toggle-able setting, if implemented.
     
  18. Fixer Apprentice Engineer

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    Keep in mind, what you are asking for makes no actual sense. ('Because we want it' is not sensible, it is emotional.)


    Stop thinking about game code for a moment, and just focus on what it would ACTUALLY be like to be the Engineer:


    Adding atmosphere to ships allows for additional dangers. Adding atmosphere does not provide any meaningful benefits as their suit provides EVERYTHING they need, and they do not suffer any discomfort from their suit.

    Frankly, if I could get a suit like the one in Space Engineers, I'd get one. No need to eat, drink, eliminate, having pure air to breathe, no disease.... hell, the only time I'd take it off is for sex (unless there's an attachment for that too). I would just plug into the wall every now and then and be golden.
     
  19. Hawthorn Apprentice Engineer

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    Yes, the emotional aspect is important for some people. I'm not considering code at all. Some of us like a role playing aspect to survival.

    Also, in terms of actually being an engineer, wouldn't you want to have some time out of your suit? I mean, the current Space Engineer is little more than a robot. I'd like to have a more human conection to the survival experience.
     
  20. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Would a real engineer in the most hazardous environment imaginable really WANT to take off his safe, comfortable, padded, life-supporting suit when his cobbled-together ship could come under fire at any minute?
    It's like asking a solider to take off his vest in the middle of a firefight simply because the enemy just happens to have stopped shooting.

    As for a toggle, it's not necessary.
    If we ever got pressurized interiors, feel free to spend a huge amount of time and resources pressurizing your ship for no gain. You're only handicapping yourself, both in and out of your ship.
    I'll just fly past laughing; being faster, having more power and a safer ship.

    Of course, I already said that if the developers added pressurized interiors i'd support it and i'd probably pressurize my space stations (not my ships) as well. But since they haven't, nor are they planning to, i'll continue to oppose it until there's a real reason for pressurization.
     
  21. Lyrus Apprentice Engineer

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    I would like pressurised but I'm agree that we don't have functional need to do so. Maybe (very) later if suit happen to have some kind of failure... and then medbay is already the dedicated place.

    Do you have some precise idea when you ask for human connection?
     
  22. Ash87 Senior Engineer

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    Going to address this in stages.
    No one is asking for it to be easy, or even common. You are right, it would be a difficult and fiddly thing to maintain. I would counter a lot of this by saying that you could have airlock rooms throughout your base, so that if a section is breached it seals off. This would be possible, if not easy to implement with doors (And give doors a function). This would be a long term engineering accomplishment, you managed to pressurized a station or a ship, and it supports itself... that could be something that is huge.

    Point to point:
    1.) layers of armor, reinforce specific sides of armor so they hold more than the rest of the block (Give more warning before a breach), the whole ship/station doesn't have to be pressurized.
    2.) This is a created issue, it could be like that in the mechanics, or it couldn't. If it were, again, this shouldn't necessarily be something you do by default.
    3.) This is an asesthetic quibble, you could make a block to pass through so you can get conveyors into a pressurized area quite easily. Or you could put a large container as the interface between interior and exterior. Or you could do one of a hundred other things.
    4.) the -sides- of interior blocks, but the top is flush against other blocks. Likewise, what about Assemblers? And catwalks would "Tear like Paper" yet they are made out of interior plates and steel. Even if it were only those armor blocks and doors, okay it just means that is what you'll need to use. And again, easy fix: Just make a block that is airtight that allows a conveyor tube to go through.
    5.) Potentially, this isn't a necessity. You could make it more like explosive force if you so desired, and have the atmosphere escape rapidly and push the ship in a direction away from the decompression.
    6.) There was no way to generate power via the sun 4 weeks ago.
    7.) An assembler is a lathe, a spot welder, a cutting table, and any number of other things. A Refinery is a extraction basin, a chemical separator, a significant filtration system, and a furnace. You -could- make these all separate parts, and give a filtration system multiple uses, or make the compressor have a few different uses.. but it isn't Essential to the implementation of a system that would pressurize a cabin.
    8.) Except for the things you have mentioned needing: A system to pressurize the room, an airlock, etc. etc. etc. The difference between them could be subtle, or you could make it more pronounced. You could have sound behave differently in the pressurized chambers for sure, since it isn't being generated by your suite anymore. You could do any number of things here
    9.) Yes, it would be needed, that your suit come off. Astronauts do this Now, an airtight container, insulation, shielding. You now can survive in space without a suit. The model would need to be redesigned, you are right there. It would take time, but I think the devs are capable.
    10.) Well you already addressed this by mentioning insulation. You could say the reactors are shielded, you could be required to place reactors outside of the area... there are many options here.
    11.) This can be solved by adding another reactor. Again, this is 3-D printer level of building, it isn't a necessity, and should probably come with a significant number of things limiting it.

    This is rather dubious logic. People are asking for an end result, but isn't that what is happening with Dedicated servers, and building game requests... and everything else people ask for? There are people who expect this to be implemented next week, but then there are people who think that we never landed on the moon, you should likely not classify the whole group of people who want to eventually get atmosphere in ships together. This is something that would take a Lot of time and consideration. Every piece that is required for the ships to have atmosphere could be figured to have different uses, or you could, it's a "It would be nice to have" which means it's something to consider for Beta, not something to consider now. The whole argument is not invalidated because some people want everything now. By that logic, we should never get dedicated servers, because people aren't asking for every step in the process individually. Naturally the devs would divy this up amongst a number of releases or implement it slowly... Or they could do it all at once after some work, like they are seeming to be working towards doing with conveyors.

    Looking at your numbered points of requirements
    1.) Yep. Could be algaenate, could be ice where you break out the Oxygen. Could be a number of things.
    2.) Doesn't have to be as difficult as you are making it out
    3.) Doesn't have to be different pieces, in the same way the refinery and assembler aren't half a dozen different pieces of equipment
    4.) Yeah, and you are talking about much larger blocks anywhere else, to make a room right now. Space isn't exactly at a premium in this game. In the same way you have to add more generators to get more power, the larger the areas you are pressurizing the more power and oxygen you'll need.

    Fair enough, that would be 100% okay in my book. Again though, just because people are asking for something they want, and not steps towards it, doesn't make it completely inexcusable.
     
  23. Conradian Moderator

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    Since Ash87 pretty much said everything I was going to and more, I'm going to add a few small things:

    Created a line of Interior wall blocks. All edges are sealed.

    Heat issues and general thermodynamics don't seem to be much of an issue in Space Engineers. It's fine to speculate in realistic terms, but considering there's no problem with standing next to a fully-powered large reactor, I'm not sure it's a big problem.

    All of which can currently fit inside your suit as well as the numerous other life-support systems, all while being powered by batteries/capacitors. So I don't think that they'd really need separate blocks on a ship.

    Well that sounds a bit 'suck-up' (For lack of a better term) in all honesty. I kinda get what you're saying, but why not argue for what you want, rather than trying to be some voice of the devs, when they've already go their own on the forums?
     
  24. Fixer Apprentice Engineer

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    It is not what you are saying, it is how you are saying it. Your arguments just scream to be shot down.

    I, too, would like pressurized interiors, but I realize they are not a good idea for the Engineer, from a role-playing perspective. When alone, and in space, SAFETY TRUMPS COMFORT.
     
  25. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

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    I agree with both of you. I also feel the same way and would love for this to happen eventually.
     
  26. JamesL86 Senior Engineer

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    (reads through thread) Interesting debate, if you can all it that.

    Pressurization? Yes please. Why? Because that is what astronauts already live with every single day. Even IF modern astronauts had these super suits that are in the game, do you really think that they'd want to spends days, months, or years never getting out of them? Just try to imagine that for a moment. I forget which post it was but one person was like "...I'd only ever take it off for sex...". There is always some reason, however small, to take the suit off. That is my point and I believe the point of many others here. Its the human element of it all. Lets put aside the idea of taking the suit off though. Why does it need to be a pure oxygen atmosphere? It can easily be a mixed gas just like divers use. I am pretty sure that space-born craft do not even use pure oxygen atmospheres any more. So that limits the fire risk.

    So we leave the suit on for now and we have reduced the fire risk. Oh but what about the hand tools? They could catch the air on fire right? Do you routinely see auto body shops erupting in flames on the nightly news? No, you don't and they use welders and grinders all the time.

    What about fire from weapons? Okay, supposing that you do in fact somehow get an internal fire after a weapon breaches your hull (which would be nigh impossible due to the air rushing out) its going to be sucked out in moments anyway so that ain't a big deal either. Might you get sucked out into space? Possibly but if the suit is still on then the only worry you have is getting back inside again.

    So if you always wear your suit then what is the point? Realism and game mechanics. I seriously doubt that humans would ever put themselves in a situation where they are in space without at least a few creature comforts. It not what humans do and its not who we are. Also the simple mechanic of having your suit last longer while in a pressurized area would be wonderful. Think of it in tiers. In vacuum in null G your suit drains pretty fast. In Vacuum in some sort of gravity with the pack off drains less power, even while using tools. You get to work longer between charging breaks. Working in gravity in a pressurized chamber could mean zero loss of power due to suit life support. By my estimates the first tier jump can increase the time between charges 2-3 fold vs null G work. Likewise, you could see nearly as much increase yet again going from vacuum to atmosphere.

    Disease plays no part in this. Food and water doesn't either. The life support is easily provided by one single machine. The ship blocks are big enough to assume, as the devs stated early on, that all the conduits and wiring and everything is kept inside the blocks.

    It would not be that hard to do either. Some of the technical issues with pressurization can be easily remedied by tweaking the already mentioned ability of the game engine to check if an area is sealed or not. Why we want it? Because it adds realism, even if it is added in a somewhat abstract way. It would not likely be difficult to add is another reason. This is the same reason that a many in the community want some basic furniture as well. If all we have to do in this game is provided by the spawn ship (which it is), then it tends to lose its point a bit. I always add crew quarters to my ships and such. Right now though, the only way to make them somewhat useful is to let players add medbays to there rooms so it at least serves some purpose. We want pressurization for the same reasons that many folks want furniture, or dedicated PvP map settings, or any number of other suggestions that are often overlooked. It makes the game more interesting, more feature rich, and more fun in our minds. That is how solar got into the game. Enough people liked it. Now there may not be enough folks that like this idea to get it included also but that does not mean we have to quit making noise about it because the community grows every day. Perhaps one day there will be enough folks wanting this feature that the devs will put in as well as other ideas. I hope so, not just for this idea but for many others as well.
     
  27. MMKing Trainee Engineer

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    Regarding the question on AI controlled drones.

    I feel it's a bad idea, i don't think the developers should implement blocks that allow for such things. Adding pistons, rotors, lifts, wheels, thrusters, tracks and conveyor belts to name a few engineering marvels. Should be enough, let the space engineers (the player) figure out how to bend these things to his will.

    Players are already able to trap contraptions using gravity and rotors to asteroids in order to automatically mine. That is good engineering.
     
  28. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    Wrong thread dude...
     
  29. meadman1 Apprentice Engineer

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    I completely agree, going out into space should be dangerous and risky. Now that they have meteors there is no reason why there can't be much smaller much faster moving ones that would puncture the suit. I honestly think that it would be nice for late game survival to never have to leave your safe, pressurized ship. Not wearing a suit should have perks, like not having to recharge
     
  30. Maul555 Apprentice Engineer

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    I can understand arguments that say its not worth the development time "right now".... But I can't understand any argument that says there is no reason for pressurized environments. As a human spaceflight simulator ALONE there is a reason simply because HUMANS are in it... There is no possible scenario that I can imagine that would have a human agreeing that staying inside a spacesuit for any extended period of time would be a preferable condition. Indeed, staying inside of a space suite indefinitely would be torture.
     
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