Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

Why space engineers needs atmosphere

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Kylar_Reed, Apr 9, 2014.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. jcalis1994 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    169
    Survival mode was originally going to be called Manual mode. Don't take the "survival" part so literal.

    Also, the worlds we have now are not permanent. They've said a few times already they are working on infinite/large procedural made maps full of asteroids with interesting things in them. Comparing 7 days to die to Space Engineers is really not a comparison at all, they are entirely different games with different ideas in mind. One is zombie survival, the other is space engineering. You cannot compare them.

    They have said no to food, or atmosphere. Pretty much they said with the modding API modders will be able to implement new features into the game (such as those; air pressurization, food, atmosphere, etc.), so they are leaving those aspects that are non essential up to modders.
     
  2. KirathianUK Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    44
    I find it extremely odd that pressurised interiors is not in the game.

    Space engineers is supposed to be about engineering in space but IRL one of the biggest engineering challenges is that pressurised interior.

    Look at it another way, one of the most iconic space based engineering challenges of all time was apollo 13 and how you were going to get those 3 guys home alive. A major part of that was the pressurised interior oxygen.

    For a game supposedly loved by "engineers" most of the anti PI arguments have been very weak and avoiding the engineering challenges involved in creating a PI.

    It is a basic human need to create "shelter", but the current engineering in SE doesnt require it (as many have said, the spaceship designs are based on PI, even the ones supplied by keen, but that is actually BAD engineering if you dont have PI because it is wasteful and pointless without PI).

    The game is called Space Engineers, not Space Marines, but we have more features for marines than we do engineers (guns, factions, pvp, rather than atmospheres, hydroponics, etc). Pressurised interiors should be one of the most basic requirements of a space engineering game because it is one of the most basic requirements of people in space.

    How you place that in the game has various choices. It certainly doesnt require "eating", "sleeping" or "shitting" commands to be added, but engineering purpose behind hydroponics should be easy (eating can be automatic without being an action required every 5 minutes).

    Anyway, i think it should be added (at least as an option in world config, so the people who dont want it can leave it off) and would greatly extend the depth and replayability of the game.
     
  3. doulos05 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    But the argument hasn't been "We don't want the challenges", it's been "We don't want pointless challenges." A timer (independent of energy) which runs down and requires you to recharge periodically isn't a challenge, it's a hassle and it's pointless. Requiring you to do your construction in a pressurized environment in order to get full productivity (something no sci-fi that I've read assumes you would do in space engineering) just limits options without providing anything tangible in return. the NPC angle that has been proposed is really interesting to me, and it give you a reason to have PI that makes sense. NPCs want x cubic meters of PI. If you want NPCs, you have to provide that to them. Now you have made PIs truly optional, as they should be. Adding the requirement for PI to the game would likely break a large number of existing ships (like thruster damage seems to have done from what I read). Even ships (and stations) built using imagined PI have a good chance of ending up broken because Keen's assumptions of how PI works will be different than ours. None of the ships I've seen in the pre-builts actually seems to assume PIs. After all, none of them have airlocks. They just have doors. The doors on the pre-built designs are to control entry, NOT maintain atmospheric pressure. If they were meant to control pressure, they would look like airlocks with two doors, not just one.
     
  4. Dragon-Raptor Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    120
    This topic just does not die :p

    I like to think I can see both sides of this debate/argument, but in the end, here's mine (for what it's worth).

    Remember KISS: Keep It Stupidly Simple

    From where I'm sitting, it appears that most of the Pro-PI arguments boil down to 'If we have PI, we can have this, and then we need this, and that leads us to having this...' etc. And frankly, I wouldn't want all that. The current energy usage model works fine for me.

    Drop all Oxygen, Improved Tool Use, Food, Rest, Toilet-breaks ideas. Keep it simple!
    [SIZE= 13.3333339691162px]

    When in PI area:
    [/SIZE]
    1) idle energy use is halted (using tools or jetpack still used energy)

    2) when energy reaches zero, health does not drop


    That's all that's needed in my humble opinion. IIRC, Dev's stance on the topic was that 'PI must be able to stand as a feature in it's own right, without anything depending on it.' I could be wrong on that, however.
     
  5. Jarin Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    78
    Designs change. They're obviously planning a more granular progression, more like survival modes in other games (see comments when they introduced the arc furnace).

    Do you have a source on this? All I've seen is the comment on the current state of survival mode when it was initially added, (i.e. "this is our initial implementation and why") not a "we'll never do this" statement.
     
  6. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,077
    I can only think of one good reason to add atmosphere to a space ship.

    Fire.

    Horrible ship fires for anyone foolish enough to have a pressurized oxygen bomb for a habitat.
    Gatlin rounds would set the interior spaces ablaze, lead on iron making all those sparks, and rockets, yeah...

    How about your Grinder?
    Want to whip that out in an oxygen enriched environment?
    Then Weld?

    Without atmosphere there is no Fire.
     
  7. jlg81 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    26
    first of all the devs did not say no, they said yes, they just dont want to make promises, there is even a recent interview with mark, tallking about the priority of making actuall planets and liquid water, as well as pressurised enviroments, they stated they are not making promises, also they probly wont include eating as to not annoy people, but to be honest the only people i see annoyed is the trolls and girevers, and as of right now the game is so unbalanced toward them its unreal, you cant even win a fight agaianst a ginder its ridiculus. I dont even play online because of it, I do not enjoy spending 90% of my time trying to make griever proof bases. when all they do is just come with a grinder and win every time, with no skill even little kids can do it, so that said get your facts straigt
     
  8. kristakis Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    607
    I might be the only one, but whenever I see this topic come up in the list I just say "It doesn't" and move on :D

    There's a new game coming called Empyrion that looks like a mash up of Space Engineers, Star Forge and an FPS that does have atmosphere in blocky spaceships. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

    In the meantime I'm happy for SE to remain a game about making interesting things and not hampering us with artificial constraints :thumb:
     
  9. doulos05 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    They won't include eating because
    If you could have pressurized environments add something valuable to things you create that can't be achieved by simply roleplaying it to be there and wouldn't penalize people who don't want to go through the hassle, then it might get added. Looking across the seemingly never-ending stream of threads, I see 2 ideas that might actually fit that bill: housing for NPCs (Except NPCs don't exist (yet) and it isn't clear what they'd do) and increasing/decreasing the efficiency of certain tasks (by saying that certain ores refine faster when refined in atmosphere than they do in vacuum).
    But if there's nothing valuable added to the things you create by having atmosphere, they won't add it. And don't say explosive decompression. That's not valuable, that's a penalty, and one someone who hates griefers as much as you seem to should really hate because griefers would have a lot of fun venting your hull. Also, not taking off the suit because they've made it clear that he's never going to take off that suit.

    I would love pressurized interiors, I think they'd be cool. I would fiddle around with them and have a lot of fun. But I just don't see what they add to the game beyond "Oh, look. A new engineering challenge to overcome." Until they're adding something substantive, we won't see them.
     
  10. Willemina Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,433
    Grievers? Comfort them, don't complain about them. It's hard to cry without an atmosphere.

    Another reason not to do it though is rotor hinged door. Immersion breaking, or useless for pressurized environments.
     
  11. Conradian Moderator

    Messages:
    2,596
    From my own viewpoint and what I've picked up over the numerous threads on this subject guys:
    People want atmosphere not because it gives us numerous benefits, but because it gives us new challenges. It gives that extra airlock system you built into your hallways purpose rather than just being aesthetic, for example.
     
  12. Volfram Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,564
    Small technicality, lead and copper do not spark, which is why copper hammers are used in environments where the atmosphere may have flammable gas.

    I don't know the details. It probably has to do with how soft the two metals are.
     
  13. Smoo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    153
    No. It does not.

    People are looking for a way to force everyone to design airlocks. That simple. Some people like airlocks, some people made airlocks, and now everyone else has to make airlocks?

    No.

    Designing a ship like it has air? Great! It's your ship, make it however you want. (I would suggest having all the blocks touching, power, control, and at least one thruster in each direction, among other things...)

    But pressure? It does not enhance the game at all. It doesn't bring anything to the table that a remote power feed to an astronaut suit wouldn't do better and easier. It makes exactly as much sense as, say, a mod where you have to press a button for 10 seconds every 5 minutes, or your astronaut dies. Pressurization is just more complex, and wastes CPU cycles that could be better spend doing anything else.
     
  14. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    I love seeing a thread I haven't posted in for months with the sad and pathetic nobodies who just want post something by quoting my post over half a year old like it's some newly posted affront to their sensibilities and ignoring the 24 pages in between then and now. That post isn't even remotely relevant in context to anything said since that point when the OP made 4 different threads, each in a different section demanding atmosphere.
    There's no problem with atmosphere, as long as the engineer actually needs to breathe. Which he doesn't. That's a bodily function and by extension, heavily frowned upon by the Devs.
    The problems arise from dumb, poorly educated A- ... people, with no knowledge whatsoever of how such systems would work or impact the development schedule or game performance. They want food, water, waste, sleep and sanity as well. Air is at least a feature unique to space.

    Plants do not make air. Plants purify air, they do not make it. Plants grow slowly. If you were thinking "I can grow plants to make air!" go back to school, you're stupid.
     
  15. Conradian Moderator

    Messages:
    2,596
    You're acting like if we had the ability to pressurise our ships it would be a compulsory feature of all ships.
    If we had atmosphere I'd probably have all my civilian ships pressurised, and parts of my industrial vessels. My military vessels would either be unpressurised, or would depressurise themselves when in combat.
    It does not have to be a "EVERYONE MUST DO THIS" option... How much else has been like that so far? Tell me, do you only play survival because the devs made it the only option when they implemented it?
     
  16. Kuu Lightwing Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,503
    Not much in game, but quite a lot of stuff suggested by players.
     
  17. Conradian Moderator

    Messages:
    2,596
    Exactly though. The devs know that people like having the option with their sandbox to set it up to suit their own needs. That's why pretty much everything in this game including the use of weapons is optional in the settings or in-game with what you build. Atmosphere and pressurisation, if implemented, would, like everything, be something that you can go without or have disabled.
    Thus the argument "Because I/some people/everyone don't want to HAVE to deal with this [insert suggestion/idea here]" is null and void.
     
  18. Kuu Lightwing Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,503
    Not really, it's actually a valid argument. You cannot design a game in such a way that every single mechanic is toggleable, because that means you can't make your mechanics work together since any of them can be turned off and that would require other changes and also the thing that already has been brought many times is that it splits the community and fractures the workshop. I think the only "optional" things we should have are mods.
     
  19. Kill3rCat Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    19
    Pressurisation should not be something players are forced to have. The pros and cons of pressurised environments should be well balanced, to give you a reason to (or not to) use it. In a military vessel, you may not wish to have pressurised interiors, but you may have them on a civillian transport ship. And we all know how much the community loves finding new and interesting ways to develop weapons systems.

    My take on it:

    Oxygen could be in addition to having energy requirements. The player would not take their helmet off inside a pressurised environment; their suit automatically refills its oxygen levels as long as they're within an oxygenated environment. 100% hassle free, however it still adds a bit of depth, immersion and realism. Not to mention mechanics which encourage the player to engineer around certain problems in order to achieve useful or desirable features on his or her vessel.

    (Of course it would still be in-fiction to say that part of your suit energy goes to an oxygen recycler... but I think we'd all prefer oxygenated environments, thanks.)

    I think that many players, myself included, would also like to see oxygen tanks, as well, in 3 different sizes. Large ship, small ship, and pocket-size. Basically, you can carry a small oxygen tank around in your inventory at the cost of volume/mass (carry capacity). As your oxygen levels drain, either you swap your oxygen cylinders, or the one in your inventory is automatically drained to replenish your suit's oxygen supplies. You can fill up oxygen from ship-mounted tanks, even if you or the oxygen tanks are not inside a pressurised environment (similar to recharging at a medbay). Oxygen could perhaps be acquired by players through the processing of ice in a refinery/arc furnace? Alternatively, waste carbon dioxide in your suit could be recycled either through hydroponics (some kind of plant-based recycling system, etc.) or through an oxygen recycler (new block?).

    You could have a block called 'life support', or 'atmospheric generator' or whatever you fancy. This block takes gases from cylinders placed in its inventory (Oxygen/CO2) and ventilates the entire ship (provided their is an open path) with oxygen from its storage. This means, if you were stuck inside part of your ship which was pressurised but seperated from the atmospheric generator by a door, or whatever, then you could potentially use up all the oxygen inside that seperate compartment. You could use an adjustable slider to set the desired pressure, either higher or lower, which will have more or less exaggerated pros and cons. You would need to collect excess CO2 from the life support storage, or you could untick an option 'collect CO2' or whatever, instead allowing oxygen recyclers to convert CO2 back into useful O2. Or you could vent unwanted gases into space. Your life support block then either collects gas from the environment or vents it out into your ship to try and maintain the desired pressure. In order to make sure all parts of your ship have equalised pressure and gas levels, you could either build ventilation shafts or the devs could add a 'vent shaft' block or whatever. Open doors, catwalk 'rails', slatted windows and deformed blocks would also ideally allow for airflow, with rate of decompression in the event of a hull breach varying depending on the size of hole (block deformation) or how open/closed a door was. I imagine pistons would need to be less buggy in order to allow them to prevent airflow. Or you could just not rely on pistons to keep your ship pressurised.

    This would also add a new harvestable resource; ice. Ice could be processed in a arc furnace or refinery, or even both. Depending on which structure the ice is processed in, it will either give you water or oxygen. Oxygen and water could then be collected from their respective structures in tanks/cylinders, or a cargo container could be filled with water/oxygen. Plants could be grown in hydroponic bays from seeds (perhaps you start with some seeds, or you can loot them from cargo ships) or perhaps the plants just magically appear when you place the block. Plants would require a steady supply of water, but can convert waste carbon dioxide into oxygen (so basically, botanical oxygen recyclers). Or, if you don't want to fill your ships with flora, you can vent out your CO2 and replace it with oxygen gas from cylinders.

    Additionally, perhaps having the player's suit require far less oxygen (or none, altogether) while in a pressurised environment would be quite cool. A possible use for waste gases would be to use them in a similar manner to monopropellant; you can vent CO2 into space and use it like an RCS thruster. This wouldn't really make much sense, however, considering the energy mechanic. I would propose that energy is only used for jetpacks and tools, with a small amount being used to maintain your suit pressure. Oxygen would then be required as an extra stat to consider, and there would be a reason to pressurise part of a ship or station (or asteroid, if you intend to be mining consistently for a long time). Going with the whole waste materials theme, reactors could produce nuclear waste which you have to dispose of in addition to tanks of useless CO2 (and all that rock we pick up while mining).

    ---------------------------------------

    The above is a copy/paste from another thread I have stated my opinions in, I am just too lazy to retype the entire essay.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  20. PeZook Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    34
    I like someone's suggestion (not made here though) that pressurization would allow you to have a "crew" (either actual NPCs walking about as decoration or just a number), that would act as a more capable remote-control system.
    By investing in pressurization you could get:
    1) The ability to control a ship from any distance without using vulnerable high-bandwith antennas (a gamey way of simulating the crew having their own brain)
    2) Situational awareness equal to a player-controlled ship and
    3) The crew doing routine maintenance on damaged parts
    But you'd need to construct a life support system, keep it powered and supplied with ice for oxygen generators (and maybe lithium for CO2 scrubbers?), design the pressurized spaces properly, maybe recruit the crew etc, essentially getting significant added capability in exchange for significant resources and effort. For a ship that would go into combat it would present many problems that would, I think, make drones with their drawbacks quite a competitive alternative.
     
  21. jlg81 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    26
    space is a vacuum, so pressuring is how space is, we want it so it will be more like space. its boring I want a challenge besides fixing my automatic elevator after an update, or building a navigation computer using logic gates. gets boring I want things to kill and hazards to face. as of now the only real hazard is running out of urianium. also, ignore virmillon, he posts every time we talk about this, he is trying to stop it because he wants to kill people on survival, they wont say it but that is why most of these guys are opposed, and they just keep flooding these posts acting like they are mojority, its only like four guys against this making it seem like they are every one.
     
  22. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    Dude, just stfu and go away.
    You clearly have no interest in reading the posts in this thread. Even if you do, you lack the comprehension to understand them.

    Oh, and i've never killed anyone in survival. Ever.
     
  23. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,744
    Even by accident?

    I killed someone by accident.

    It started a war.
     
  24. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    Never.
    The only person i've killed is myself.

    I've only played on 2 servers: The KeenSWHtestserver and some RP-PvP server with Ash.
     
  25. Catastrophy Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    23
    Atmosphere and pressure was one of the first thoughts that crossed my mind after I initially played some. And I came with the free weekend and rebate last week to the game.
    However, having gotten into it a bit I find it would add nothing besides delivering a tool to power machinery or use it as a weapon. I don't want to play SimSpace or Orbital Farm Simulator. I don't want to run to the toilet or the fridge every now and then. I don't want to feed the cats. You get the idea, I want to build stuff.

    Naturally it would be ideal to have it as a mod so everybody who wants it can include it and those who don't bother need not deal with it.
     
  26. Tcsisek Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    543
    ... i dont have time to make a good response to this, i will in a hour or so though. to sum up ahead of time,

    although i do want atmosphere and AI, that is no way to discuss on a forum, either act like someone with a spec of dignity and honor, or please remove youreself from any of the seriose discussions on these forums.
    Do not insult people, do not asume anything, do not be an ass. 5$ says he wont listen to this and insult me/ignore this/say all i do is grind peoples bases.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2014
  27. Tcsisek Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    543
    i killed 1 guy, I was on a public server with a faction and a guy In a grinder ship came, concentrated assault rifle fire from sevral guys and some guy building a gat turret took him out.
     
  28. Conradian Moderator

    Messages:
    2,596
    Then don't pressurise your ship... It should be as simple as that, a feature that we can manage or ignore. O2 levels in your suit must be maintained (Similar/alongside energy) and you can happily stay in your suit in a depressurised ship and just top up your oxygen tanks (Maybe a physical slot you have to switch out rather than just a number on your HUD that you hold T somewhere to make bigger). Or if you want to, you can pressurise your ships and not have to keep changing your tanks (Though I'm imagining them having a much longer lifetime than the energy bar) when working... Energy will also not be constantly expended in your suit's oxygen pumps.
    What would that mean for our two types of players:
    The 'No atmosphere' camp (Who like depressurised vaccums in their ship) would be able to play the game like they've always played it. Energy will decrease constantly, they can travel out into space... They just have to have a good supply of O2 available (Assemblers could produce tanks, and then later a specialised machine could do it better).
    The 'Breath the air' camp on the other hand get all the benefits of wearing a suit in a pressurised space with breathable air, i.e. their suit doesn't expend energy pumping O2 around and they don't have to carry a tank on them at all times. Wahoo building in a pressurised space just got more attractive :D Wait is that a fire?
    I don't think the answer to these things were some people want it should be 'Best as a mod'... After all most of the game's features would then be better as a mod and the game itself would be fairly bare.
     
  29. kristakis Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    607
    TBH I cannot think of a better SE than that. I believe there are far too many black box systems in place as it is and we're only getting more. I'd love to see the game stripped back to a physics/rules engine and then all the current blocks added back in as mods.

    That's just me though, I loved Minecraft for this same reason - it's full of primitives that you use to build complexity.
     
  30. Catastrophy Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    23
    Fire sounds interesting. But that's pretty much it.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.