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Why we need static mining blocks/drills

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Sagi, Jul 12, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Scorpion00021 Senior Engineer

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    1,411
    Once you build a decent mining ship, an hour worth of drilling will give you a plethora of ore that takes silly amounts of time to refine. Why do we need an ore trickle from some block as well? Its really fast and easy to mine.
     
  2. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    read the original post...
    -boosting of player interaction
    -player being able to set self made goals
    -more bases to give the place something worth to be explored
    -being able to use many of the game mechanics you can't use usefull today.

    It is not about the mining has to go or being more easy it is about being able to advance to something
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Malware Master Engineer

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    You're right, I don't see that. I really don't.

    At this point I'm going to go "agree to disagree" and move on.
     
  4. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    I have to agree with malware here, I don't see how adding something that is basically an easier version of mining adds anything to player interaction, because of the ways ores are distributed in game, everyone, can and should be reasonably able to get all of the resources, whether by mining as we know it or your suggestion... Having world settings that make things like large scale mining viable, would be a better (still not good) way to get people to interact.

    To me it just seems you're too lazy to engineer a nice mobile mining system that effectively does the same thing as you're asking for (without any effort)

    People can and should enjoy the spoils of war so to speak, if you have a good engineered solution for mining, you rightfully should be able to control some form of business, look at something like platinum, if most players are planet based, your ability to mine and sell it can give the interaction.

    Tldr: don't penalize players who are better engineers in space engineers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    The problem I see is that even if they can only be built sparsely, planets are still big enough that everyone could build at least a few and not have to rely on other people for anything. The only way to get a lot of people to interact and trade would be if planets only had a large amount of a few ores in each large area, so that if you had enough players on one planet one person would have tons of gold, but not much nickel, magnesium, cobalt etc, where other players would have those ores in abundance. Also you can already sort of do this, I had a miner that would carry enough materials to a site to build a large container, connector, a reactor/solar panels, and at least one refinery, set them up, then mine out a deposit and dump the ore into the refinery. Then I would leave it to do its thing since I was playing with 1x refinery speed, and send an automated cargo drone later to pick up finished products. I also tried to make a drone to break down the station once it was done... but that somehow ended up as a crater and scattering of parts across the landscape. Good times
     
  6. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Boost player interaction? By making it so they don't have to move about? :p

    You can't set self made goals now? :p

    You can't build more bases now? :p

    What mechanics are you alluding to and how would they be more usable with your suggested "noob-mode" mining?

    I cant wait to hear this one.

    :tu:
     
  7. Michael_6748967 Trainee Engineer

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    Hmm...I don't play MP; I just popped in to mention SpetS playthrough where he sets up automated mining platforms (drill on a low-speed piston, over an ore deposit) and a drone to collect ore. I imagine the same would work with asteroids and station-block mining platforms.

    I do agree there isn't much point to the game beyond building cool stuff, much of which is only hypothetically useful. IMO the game needs more diverse enemies/weapons and better AI. The current AI factions do next to nothing, i.e. just spawn ships. Some kind of neutral AI trading faction mechanic would be nice because it would provide an alternative to mining/piracy for resource acquisition.

    Mining's pretty trivial: build a small mining ship, mine for the resources to build a big mining ship, then quickly/easily mine for resources to build what you really want. I spend much less time mining than building; 3,500,000 kg of ore per mining trip lasts a long time. Adding modules can make the ore last longer, but I prefer the power efficiency modules (with pure solar + batteries).

    Currently the biggest challenge in this game is building stuff that doesn't explode for no apparent reason. Pistons, rotors, merge blocks, and landing gear are extremely buggy even in SP. From what I've seen of MP, they've got additional categories of problems. Survival stops being fun when game bugs wipe out hours worth of work, or require tons of saving/loading to work around bugs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    Boost player interaction? By making it so they don't have to move about? :p

    They would have to move the ore from base to base. But because there is a permanent base their other people that discover it may lure to follow the player (or their carrier drones). Or lay traps for incomming ships.

    You can't set self made goals now? :p
    Apart from i like to build particulairy "that", no... There is no purpose for building other things but a miner then a big miner then a warship and look for people who only have some tiny base somewhere never to be found.

    You can't build more bases now? :p
    You can but without a purpose, you are only blocking yourself now if you built more then one base cuzz there is absolutly no point in having another one.

    What mechanics are you alluding to and how would they be more usable with your suggested "noob-mode" mining?
    for a start it would not be noob-mode mining cuz it would be more more later in the game, along with the fact that building and maintaining these mines(automated that is) would provide a much bigger challenge then mining is now, wich is very simple.
    Making a drill with a larger piece on it to make productivity modules on it could be nice as wel. That the resources dry up eventually, as long as you get plenty more resources and it would go slow enough for you to be willing to make a base around it.
    The only reason i suggest infinite resources is because it would reduce lag.

    And if you can't wait to get this heard perhaps you should actually read the original post and don't ask questions on wich i already gave an answer to...
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    Your answers actually don't even warrant a response this time.

    Why don't you stop trying to make silly reasons and just admit it's something you want and noone else does?

    Because the reasons you gave are still just long versions of "Cos I want it".

    Why do you think RL oil rigs are portable?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  10. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    I know for a long time even before i made this post that none of the members of this forum is waiting for it and thats why i state "good luck with your dying game".
    I just looked recently into the available servers and almost none had any players...
    This game lacks some serious gameplay while other games in it's genre are flourisching.
    and i'm not saying SE hase to be the same like those other games but if they do not give something people want to go for this is a sinking ship.
    There is simply not enough usable content in this game
     
  11. TinfoilChef Trainee Engineer

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    34
    In a nutshell you've just described Eve Online. All I can say is I certainly hope SE never goes that route.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    This is a repost:
    http://forum.keenswh.com/threads/alternate-mining.7382840/

    Funny thing is that we came to the same conclusion there as well. I wouldn't bother with stationary bases or a trickle mining block. I would mine in my faster ship and refine at my mobile base. Then I'll come by and crush the trickle static small bases that one player can't possibly defend all of.

    Said it before and I'll say it again, this just sounds like a lazy man's solution to mining. Like in a rts where you plop the block down and forget it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    1,787
    If you genuinely think that the only thing that could save this game is a lazy man mining block, i feel sorry for you, if you think it should take precedence over fixing things like pistons and rotors, which allow you to do these things in unique and interesting ways.



    this album is a miner which despite being large grid can be run on a single small size small ship reactor, it's extraction rate is about 1,000,000 kg of ore per minute and takes 8 minutes to dig down to a depth of 200m (which i believe is deeper than most ores go, but i could be wrong) It also doubles as an ore transporter capable of carrying a few hundred tonnes at about 80km/h over semi rough terrain.

    now tell me, why is this any different from what you're asking for aside the fact that:
    A) it's actually mobile
    B) it doesn't cost crazy amounts of power to use (based on your suggestion)
    C) doesn't require a massive logistical system to move ore from location to location
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    202
    I think having some resources that don't deplete would be a HUGE improvement in this game, because it would create an actual reason to create stationary structures and colonize space.

    Being able to plop a permanent mining source on any resource node at all would be kind of broken I think, but if there were certain sources that really warrant creating a permanent structure to exploit them it would go a long way toward making this game more interesting.

    But oh well, the status quo police are on the case again, shouting down anyone who wants to see meaningful gameplay, like trade or territory control to exist in this game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Because apparantly you can't create territory control or trade without this device.
     
  16. Michael_6748967 Trainee Engineer

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    I don't like the idea of infinite ore deposits. But they could add ore deposits that aren't feasible to mine directly, e.g. large fields of low grade deposits (high stone to ore ratio over a huge area). Then it would make sense to have a complex drilling setup that works over long periods of time, and there would be reasons to control territory, especially if one of those deposits had uranium... *shrug*
     
  17. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    21
    The only reason for territory control would still be if certain areas only had certain ores. As is if you see someone has a few bases around the ore you want, you just fly off and find your own supply of whatever. Infinite sources don't change that. Just go find your own infinite source to sit on. At the end of the day the meaningful gameplay comes from people being willing to DO things in the game. Having an infinite supply of no work resources would actually HURT this IMO, since someone who just wants to build warships or exploration vessel but hates mining doesn't have to trade any more, they just hunker down on a collector until they get what they want.
     
  18. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    Now this I do agree with. There really is no reason to fight over a resource because our space is saturated with so much that not even several hundred people could deplete it. There's just too much.
    That's why I like and promote the idea of clusters. Space roils out much farther from each other and massively reduce their numbers. Make these primarily iron with tiny tiny deposits of 1 other ore. Then, have little clusters that may hold 3 or 4 ores. Something to build a base around.

    THAT.. would be territory control.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    A) it's actually mobile
    once more the game should have both mobile and static drilling mines
    B) it doesn't cost crazy amounts of power to use (based on your suggestion)
    never said static drills should cost HUGE amounts of power i only stated that it should go very slow
    C) doesn't require a massive logistical system to move ore from location to location
    The whole point of my suggestion is that you WOULD need a large logistical system so you have something to go for in this game.
    This logisitical system therefore is also optional because you can choose if you want to automate it or not.

    and for the guy that called it lazy mining.
    In the end it is but before you are to that point you have been far from lazy and once again it is called space engineers not mining simulator.
    And those small mining bases you mine give you a reason to actually go raiding stuff, something that is very unsatisfying today.

    ATM most players will hide their bases in the open never to be found. But on asteroids (and i completely support the idea of meteor clustering and diffrent types of ores in diffrent area's) if they put bases there people will defend them and attack them.
    This system is also a basic suggestion that further has to be balanced. For instance it could be that these satic mining drills could only be placed in large asteroids that are in cluster form and contain more rare ores.
    Whilst there could still be smaller asteroids suited for the more basic ores to mine so people can get started and where no static drills could be placed.
     
  20. DJToxica Apprentice Engineer

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    129
    Why? Why should SE never go that route? All i can say is, even if the game works flawlessly without any Bugs, perfect Multiplayer and Servers which can provide Slots for 100 Players. There is still not so much to that game.
    Survival is in a nutshell and like others already said: Building a mining ship, building a bigger mining ship, building a warship and never battle other players because the warship took so long to build in survival and then? What then? I'm not that good in designing ships and a lot of other player also mostly use workshop blueprints for survival. So thats all the game provides today. It has all those possiblities. Look at the workshop: Cargo Ships, Trader Ships, Mining Bases, Exploration ships and so on but with what purpose? We have this giant ass maps to play in and theoretically explore it, but for what reason? Not for finding ressources apparantly because you don't need the whole map to get all you need to build a gigantic fleet.
    Quests, Economy and Skills could be a really big thing to not only get old players to play again but to lure new players in.
    Oh and just for the books....i didn't have EvE in mind....mostly i had other games in this category in mind:
    Ark Sruvival Evolved, 7dtd, Freelancer, maybe a bit X-Games and stuff like that
     
  21. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    Well because indeed what you keep describing goes alot into eve online.
    I think that space engineers the valua should always be in real materials like ores and ingots and never in coin currency.

    However quests can be interesting, something like a piratebase spawning with a antenna boradcasting so large that everybody would see it. And they off course hold some nice weapons or other valuable stuff (but atm not much is real valuable stuff).
    I think we are on the same line where space engineers should has to go to be a game with great mp survival gameplay but currency would go to much to what other games do.
     
  22. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Nor is the game called space conqueror or space trader and yet that is the agenda you are pushing here.

    It's called space engineer and you engineer solutions, not get handed a easy block to do it for you. I've never mined so much that I feel like it was called space miner. Log in, do a run or 2 to fill up minerals that are low and then spend the game doing whatever you feel like doing. It's a minor inconvenience at most.
     
  23. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    Yup you engineer solutions, but since you are limited to manual mining there is almost nothing a solution is needed for...

    And yes it is an easy block but it can make you want the hardest way to optimize it.
    What is hard with current mining? Make the ship bigger/ add more drills and so far the content of solutions...
     
  24. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    1,012
    Yeah, the "hardest" part about mining is finding deposits of all the ores.
    My SG 2 drill miner holds around 90k of ore and it takes like 2 minutes to go out, fill, dump.
    That's enough to keep 10 refineries busy. For bulk iron, even a single LG drill ship can get tons very quickly.
    I spend very little time mining. So little I can't be bothered to setup automated drones for it or I'd have even less to do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    21
    There's very little engineering involved in setting up autominers and drones too. Make base, make drones, hit autopilot, profit.
     
  26. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    Of course there are other ways, but without locations that have permanent value there is nothing to really fight over. I mean, personally I don't agree that any ore deposit ever should be minable forever because that would mean if you find just minor traces of something you can produce huge quantities of that resource from it. However there should be some rare super dense deposits that work more like a resource rich region in real life, where people dig for that resource for hundreds of years and entire communities and trade routes and secondary economies form around it and wars can be fought over that resource. You never get that in Space Engineers, because there are no resources that last long enough to be permanent in the lifetime of a human. Every deposit is processed in short order and then you move on, off into infinity. Effectively the only source for conflict is just being a dick, because there is nothing of value in the game unless you create a server with a limited number of asteroids, and if you do that then you very quickly hit a point where you need to reset the world because it will simply run out of resources.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  27. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    I doubt that even with a massive reduction would mean running out of resources. Let's be honest here, how many of us have actually chewed away an entire asteroid? Even with my best miner (ahem, friends best) the most I've done is turn a spiky ball into a donut and that gave me more than enough iron to produce steel items in the hundreds of thousands for a capital ship build.
    But the idea that you are talking about is exactly what we were describing above. Asteroid density needs to be reduced possible as far as 1 every 50km instead of 50 for every 10km. Then have tight clusters of 3 or 4 roid like the ones on the old world's that are resource rich. The pirates would populate these first so you take it from them, and then you protect it from others.

    But none of that requires a static mining rig that magically sucks out the ores like a kardashian suckling dick. As Harrekin noted above, oil rigs are mobile for a reason, and I would much prefer a rig I build myself that I can move from resource to resource over the place here and do nothing apparatus.
     
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  28. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    Sure, iron is so abundant you hardly ever harvest an entire asteroid, but what about the rarer resources? You can often grab the entire lode of it in one go and then the only limitation is how fast you can refine it. There is simply no reason to stay in any one place for it.

    Maybe we don't need denser ore, but ore that is less pure. What if the game allowed for mixed ores, so that all the gold in an asteroid is not just sitting on the surface somewhere, ready to be extracted at a whim, but was mixed in with all the iron, so the only way to actually extract it all is to mine and refine the whole thing. Then pure deposits where you can quickly harvest a huge amount could be the rare thing that rewards deep exploration or challenging pirates.

    I do agree that the game would be more interesting if asteroids came in tight clusters with longer distances between groups, and instead of pirates that just magically come at you at all times you'd have pirate bases in the clusters that you need to defeat to start harvesting there. That would make for a much more interesting game overall. I still think the game needs some systems that actually reward you for creating permanent installations somewhere. Even on planets there is no real reason to actually build a city or base.



    Either way, I'm not for infinitely mining every deposit, but I think the game would hugely benefit from a system that allows "permanent" bases, and would shift the enemy threat from just being a constant annoyance that eats your resources toward being an occupying force you need to kick out of new regions if you want to expand further. I mean, oil rigs might be mobile, but oil towns are not. Los Angeles was built on an oil field that has been continuously drilled and pumped since the 1850s. Eventually so many people had moved into the area because of the oil that it turned into a huge city, and it's still producing oil today. Where is the equivalent of something like that in SE?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    And what you note is something I see all the time; old pumps sitting in fields rusting away. It's a waste of resources.

    And speaking of towns forming because of resources, let me tell you about ghosts towns. There's about a dozen of them in my home state alone where the mines closed up long ago. The only people who inhabit those towns now are retirees and the local store. AZ has a lot of empty copper mines as well.
    Most mining equipment has been moved to other sites and what was static was left to rot. So given the choice between saving resources by having mobile hardware, or having to purchase new equipment, I would choose the former. Technically speaking, the oil rig is more of a permanent base for those working on it than the mines are. And given that resources are even more finite than their real life counterparts, it would make even less sense to set up a permanent rig that auto mines for you.

    As for the lesser ores on roids, even with big builds I have never drained more than 2 roids that hold them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    Saying that resources get depleted in real life is in absolutely no way an argument for why the fact that it only takes half an hour tops to extract all the valuable resources on an Asteroid once you have a good mining ship should eliminate the need for all permanent structures in the game. In real life it takes YEARS to completely exhaust natural resources, not minutes.
     
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