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Why we need static mining blocks/drills

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Sagi, Jul 12, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Yeah that's what I said. Thanks for repeating and validating it for me.
     
  2. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    The problem is there is no conceivable way to explain how an asteroid thats a few hundred meters across at best is holding enough resources to even take a few days to dig out. No matter how hard you try to balance it, the autominer would still be creating resources out of thin air to make it in any way comparable to just ramming a drill ship through the deposit and taking a few minutes instead of waiting a few days. The only reason mines/rigs are worked/stay in the same place so long today is that our methods of extraction are vastly inefficient compared to anything that exists in space engineers. The other difference is that we have to pull them out of the ground, where the deposits can be hundreds or thousands of feet deep, requiring days or weeks of mining just to get there in the first place, when they're at best 30 seconds of right click mining away in SE. I agree that it would be nice to have a reason to make a base to hold an area or defend an asteroid cluster, but a piddly stream of resources would just not be worth it unless its the only asteroid cluster in the entire universe. If you want reasons for perma bases make a scenario, or just make it for fun.
     
  3. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    It's nice to see people finally starting to understand the problem here.
    Once again the static drill would only be one of many options but the real need here is a reason for permanent bases.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    I think you may be misreading the crowd here a bit friend, the majority are saying that there's such a small burden from it in general there's no point in going out of your way to add magic mechanics.

    People are lazy, yes, and they may want to get resources an easy way, but to tell you the truth, I think peoples impatience supersedes the desire to be lazy as someone pointed out (particularly in space) why would I bother waiting days trying to defend this supposedly much needed permanent base, potentially getting raided, or destroyed, or run out of power, when I can literally fly around for an hour or two and be near set for life in most if not all resources?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    It has nothing to do with laziness, it's just that some people want to play a building game where you're actually building up a region and creating an economy, as opposed to a game where there is no real reason to create permanent structures, no real reason to control specific territory, no way to be positioned in such a way that you can profitably trade a specific resource or item with other players.

    All this talk about not wanting "magic mechanics" is simply bollocks when the whole reason why you can drill out a resource in seconds is because you have a magic drill that breaks rocks by merely touching them, then magically sucks up the ore, while any that escapes is caught by magic gravity generators to be funneled into your magic refinery that turns ore into pure metals using a minuscule amount of energy and magically generates no waste products.

    The game is already choke full of magic mechanics, you just ignore them when they are on manual drills you can use to stripmine a whole asteroid in minutes but then rant about them when people want to be able to establish some more permanent resource collection facilities.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    How does it make an economy or help with trade when they can just go off and make their own permanent base somewhere else? At the end of the day it will always be easier to ignore some fortress someone made and go mine your own resources, unless you just want to wreck other peoples stuff. How does a slow steady stream of resources encourage an economy more than people sitting on literally thousands of tons of extra resources they don't need? I completely agree that the game would benefit from more player involvement, but a block that does what you can already do at a slower rate makes no sense. They would also have to change how blocks work, as the automining block I assume wouldn't be able to be used on a large ship, and then you get into the whole problem of what happens if it gets knocked off of voxel support, changing to a ship problems, etc. It would be a whole lot of work for something that doesn't really make any sense or add enough to the game to be worthwhile.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    And it's not like pepole can't set up a base without this thing. Every new game I play has a asteroid base with a small and large shipyard as well as a landing pad for small craft and a docking ring for large ships. From me base I can take command of my mining drone and send it out for a few runs and be loaded with mote materials in a fraction of the time allowing me more time to work on the big projects. Consolidation and speed is just far more efficient than slow and all over.
     
  8. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    I think that's where most of us disagree with you, we don't see a need for a need for a reason for permanent bases.
     
  9. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

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    eh. it sounds a bit like a hack rather than a full feature,somehow. "you can just not use it" kind of hinges over the community support; as there's already a creative mode where you can build whatever you want without having to look for ore there's a bit of an overlap, the only real thing I can think of is that it would let you play as an incremental game while avoiding running out of oxygen. shell things like offline raid prevention and trading would be better facilitated by dedicated facilities, imo.
    there is also nothing inherently wrong with stations designed for mining; if anything we should encourage more creation classes and give them purpose rather than trying to abstract them away.
    miners getting stuck is an engineering challenge- if the game doesn't make it possible to make better designs then focusing on making it so more properties can be tweaked to indeed come up with better optimization(inlcuding fixes with things that aren't the player's fault that can't be worked around with in world reason, like autopilot malfunctions and such) in order to keep the game focused on engineering and problem solving
    my 2c
     
  10. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    Stations designed for mining is great, if you want to build one around a piston mining system to drain a deposit then its an engineering problem. A station built around a block that just sits there making resources out of thin air is exactly the same as a station built anywhere else, it faces no design challenges or unique problems that a station built in the middle of empty space or out on an empty plain does. If you want a permanent station to defend and claim an area as your own just build it, the challenge will be the same as if you were sitting on an autominer.
     
  11. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    I already said I'm not in favor of infinite mining any deposit, What I was saying is that the game should contain some places where you can generate certain resources by controlling the region, rather than by simply quickly snapping up whatever is there.
     
  12. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    How would you gain resources just by being in an area though? Is that really any different than sending out mining drones to bring things back to your refinery ship?
     
  13. Kryfulli Trainee Engineer

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    I see a way to make this more interesting. If you are afraid of people doing their own base, everywhere, you could say that this block can summons pirates attacks. What kind exactly, drones or Argentavis ? I have to think about this a bit more.
    But in this way, only the most protected people would be capable of maintaining such an installation.

    Thoughts ? ^^'
     
  14. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    Yes! Free resources! Instead of me having to go hunt pirates, the pirates deliver themselves to my door. Line forms in front of the grinder pit. I like it!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    The assumption is that there might be some resources in the game that behave a bit more realistically and can't be harvested in seconds, but take years to extract. Kind of like the same reason why on earth we build mineshafts that sometimes employ several generations of workers instead of just sending guys with shovels out of a truck for a few minutes.


    Also mining drones aren't anywhere as easy or reliable as you make it sound.
     
  16. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    Magic everywhere indeed but this forum is full of blind people here who go insane if you dare to speak about the core mechanics wich are very monotonous atm.
    We want to give people more to do and they call it lazy... Don't you guys see how contradictory this is?!
     
  17. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    Yea, this forum is really out of touch with the community because it's just a small group of people who just bully and shout down everyone with different sensibilities. You just need to take one look at the steam workshop and you see that basically everything that would "destroy the game" according to this forum is a top rated mod. The highest rated functional block on the workshop right now is a nanite factory that can automatically repair your ship. In the top ten most subscribed mods are shields, energy weapons and teleporters. The mods people download simply tell a completely different story about what the community wants than this forum.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    If you want this as a mod be my guest, I'll fully welcome it. I'll never deny something as a mod. You tailor your game, I'll tailor mine.
     
  19. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    The problem is that this forum seems to think that the base game needs to cater to them exclusively and everyone else has to hold out for mods. Also when people ask for systems that allow permanent installations, trade and territory control to be meaningful they aren't talking about specialty blocks, that's stuff that goes into how the game is actually played, away from multiplayer servers just being hide and seek with spaceships and more of a real space colonization simulation.
     
  20. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    I can counter that in saying that a good 90% of players who post an idea feel that their idea is perfect and infallible, so when other players start poking holes in it they go into a blind rage and start throwing insults. Kind if like what is being seen here.

    Sorry to say, but not all ideas are good ones.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    Let me ask you a silly question: have you ever designed real mining equipment? Or the processing centers which can actually do anything with the raw ores? No? Well guess what? Its a very long and tiresome process which i can say with a certainty that most people would find both incredibly boring and inherently difficult.

    Lets take open pit mining,

    You'd require: excavators and dozers to strip off the top soil and loose ground + a means to move the displaced earth, then we can get into the drilling rigs which you use to plant explosives, after the blast you need several vehicles to collect all of the loose ore, once again needing vehicles to transport it.

    After hauling it away, depending on the ore type you have to break it down into small enough parts for handling, run it through several series of sprayers and crushers to make it into something fine, transport that to a refinery via express to then be chemically stabilized and melted into rough [metal] Then can then test a small sample to further refine the mix for something to give it favourable properties IE: extra carbon in steel to make a tool steel. After adjusting to desired properties by remelting and mixing, they can begin to pour it into billets, which will later be processed into things like plate, ingots, or stock materials. Which after that is usually post machined.

    But really, let's complain about a fee simplified processes so the average person can play it.

    But I digress, I'm not calling a drill quite magic, as we do have drills today that do something similar, they're usually employed in deep sea mining to get down to oil.

    And I'll make some concession for refineries, because they're typically MASSIVE buildings for handling any real quantities of material.

    You still haven't really answered how a little trickle resource is actually improving static bases, if anything people are just going to do what they do now and squirrel away a bunch of them in some underground area and become hermits.
     
  22. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    I'm not saying mining drones are easy and reliable, but isn't that part of engineering? It's a lot more of a challenge and interesting to design and build a drone carrier/base to send out mining drones than put down a block and cover it in heavy armor and turrets. I always try to understand people's ideas in the forums and not just shoot them down, so I am honestly curious how you would explain any resource taking more time to gather than drilling. I agree that the core game needs more interesting things to do, but IMO it has to fit with the rest of the game. I think it would be cool if there were super deep resources on planets that took time and planning to get to, which could benefit from a base built over them. As far as asteroid mining goes though I don't think you can change how it works much without it not making a lot of sense.
     
  23. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    Well of course we think they should cater to us. Just like you do. We're here to voice our opinions, not other peoples. If other people want to voice their opinion it's up to them. As we say in meetings; "Silence equals concurrence." As far as the forum community being a small group of people who bully and shout down everyone else...that's the usual response as @DDP-158 summed it up. Most of us here routinely disagree with each other, so if it feels like we are ALL ganging up on you as a collective, then your idea really does suck. Really aside from you, I haven't seen anyone get hostile about this idea, even though we aren't supportive of it, we've all been discussing calmly.

    Number of subscribers means less than you think it does. I'm subscribed to most of those mods too. Very few I regularly use. Very few I feel should be part of the core game even if I do use them. I'm sure plenty of mods will have a lot of subscribers just because they have been around for a long time and a lot of people probably don't even actively play SE anymore but I doubt they go and unsubscribe mods either.
     
  24. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Would also like to note that this idea seem's to hinge on mp interaction and pvp.

    Group this with another idea he had where he requested that blocks be immune to enemy grinders it's clear to see that his playstyle preference is bases in plain sight and straight up confrontation. Instead of evolving to deal with those of the hide n seek mentality he's attempting to mutate the game to suit his play style.

    And this says nothing for the single player. If the idea is that certain minerals are forced to be mined at a slower rate to a achieve this interaction (granted a player doesn't just build underground anyways), then this system is going to bore the dickens out of the only guy in game while he waits for autominor2000 to get the platinum he needs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    Same is true if you play single player on 1x and you got your first small hold full of platinum and realize it's going to take 20+ hours to mill through and you thought you could turn the game off between sessions.

    Don't act like everything is fantastic right now.
     
  26. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Because I carry everything in my pockets all the time. Nice dodge attempt though. And you still haven't answered widows concerns.
     
  27. Malware Master Engineer

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    That's what the upgrade modules are for. And another refinery. And another. I play 1x, I see no problem.
     
  28. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    Oh don't lie :p Refining Pt sucks no matter what. I build about 10 fully upgraded and it's still not enough.
    Yes, I'm a 1-1-1 masochist too.
    Seriously though, it's only really bad the first time through as a noob. Then you learn to build a couple small ships and go after loot pinatas (cargo ships and/or pirates) and then your problem turns to "WTF do I do with all these thruster comps, because I was very stingy designing ships with Ions because of how much I hate refining Pt and honestly mass mining ice for H2 fuel isn't so bad?"
     
  29. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Nobody else got a mental image of a 15 drill mining rig with its cargo capacity being a single small container?
     
  30. Malware Master Engineer

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    Yes it sucks but it's supposed to suck. It's a high-tier material. But with the various upgrade modules it sucks a little less :p
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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