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Why we need static mining blocks/drills

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Sagi, Jul 12, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    LOL, yeah I totally overlooked that one. But seriously, like I said earlier it just doesn't take that much. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=623553915 is my early game miner along with the unfinished Vagabond, which is a LG with 1 drill on 2 pistons. Then I have a 24 drill rip-off of AutoMcD's WURM that I have never found a reason to build in survival. The Vagabond gets so much ore so fast it just doesn't make sense to me to use more drills. I still find mining in my little AML-4 cathartic for some reason, but again I just don't spend the bulk of my time mining.

    Anyway, I also don't see how fixed magical resource pumps would change that situation at all. Refining would still be what it is.
     
  2. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    Mining, refining, building components and then welding said components into ships/vehicles/structures is pretty much all there is to this game. Why the hell would you want to effectively remove the pillars of the resource system?

    You really shouldn't be mining/refining plat, you should be stealing thruster comps from pirates and cargo ships.
     
  3. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    My main is the bullydog. 2 large containers allows some big yields so after a few trips I've got enough to keep whatever refineries going for a bit. 10 minutes behind the wheel, then I load up the stone in it, put it in front of the base and set the connectors to eject and go about my day.
     
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  4. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

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    So you want a static mining tool that can extract ores from asteroids and/or planets, while also not changing voxels... But you can just make an uber miner and move forward with your life, for like .01% of the effort of getting keen to make you a new block... The only way your going to encourage trade/pirating is by adding things into the game that can't be obtained through the normal processes. Examples are rare, incredible effective, blueprints. They're still vanilla but the designs have been built with a incredible amount of care. Programs for the programmable block, like a fighter or a miner "A.I". Or even perhaps new or different weapons, armor, etc. You know, stuff that can't be obtained from a couple hours of gameplay.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  5. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    you... eject the stone instead of using it? Tsk.
     
  6. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    That would be because all of these concerns are already explained in the original post...
    and ps there should indeed be some kind of mechanic wich dissallows people to use multiple drills on the same ore vein.
    This adding should also be just the start of many things more
     
  7. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    So you literally want to force people to have one tiny little base for each ore type to defend and have to wait forever to gain any amount of ore....?

    I'm sorry but that sounds absolutely awful, both for gameplay and for players, that's unintuitive, and clunky.

    Finding a reasonably central location to multiple ores and setting up a refinery base is enough of a reason to build semi permanent emplacements, it's also a good idea for making landing areas of you're crazy enough to build a massive ship and take it in atmos, or to build a stationary shipyard printer, or module builder.

    We don't need magic ore extractors.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    I know why you want it because I've had your playstyle figured out for a while now. We were asking the other guy.

    But like I said, you go right ahead and make your multiple little autominer's (1 per vein) and start waiting for ores to trickle in. I'll use my small miner I posted above and have a mobile platform built within 3 days to come by and smash everything.
     
  9. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    ugh...
    I don't force anyone as i want the current mining system to also stay the way it is, this would be an ALTERNATE way of getting it, not the only way...
    Stop reading things that aren't there!
    And i would encourage even more ways to get resources from. Maybe diffrent types of resources require diffrent ways of getting them efficiently.
     
  10. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

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    So why not just go for getting upgrades to the programmable block so auto mining drones are more useful... They can do all of what you said, excluding not altering voxels. As for stimulating trading on servers, once again that won't happen with a increase or decrease of common or rare materials. It's only going to happen if useful things to trade are added into the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    The point is that there is a huge disconnect between how long it takes to mine something and how long it takes to refine it. You can easily fill 10 large holds with platinum ore within half an hour, but even a top of the line refinery setup will take multiple days to refine it all. I don't see why that's somehow a better mechanic than having to control the source for prolonged periods of time.

    There is no point in staking a claim to a platinum deposit if you have enough hold space, you can just pack it all up in short order and refine it at your leisure.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    Still not convinced, even as an alternate, i feel that very few people would do so,

    lets face it, in the scheme of PvP as it is now, and into the foreseeable future, there is very little benefit to setting up static emplacements. well, atleast big on the surface ones: the best defense is to not be there, and if thats not possible, don't be seen. Dotting little single mining machines everywhere with defense turrets (which really wouldn't protect jack anyway, big or small) are just easy targets to rob, but truth be told: someone would be a damned fool to attack them, just destroy the turrets and let them work then take the resources, rinse and repeat once its built a little bit up, or just shoot out a few thrusters on the stupid (not actual AI) drones and pillage them.

    by adding something like this you're setting yourself, and anyone else crazy enough to use them up for failure in a PvP server.

    In the worst possible case scenario some jackhole decides to follow a drone back to your main base, (because its liable to be visible, and have some sizable above ground portion to unload the drones) proceeds to take: all of your refined materials, your components, and whatever unprocessed ore you might have, and then torches the place, destroys or captures the drones and destroys all of your mining equipment. I ask you: Now what? you have lost everything, you no longer have a way to get resources, so you have to respawn in a lander and start over, because you probably can't go back to that base, its location has been compromised and they could easily return.

    i would go as far to say this actually HURTS player interaction, because it encourages piracy/raiding, plus you'll be so far behind in general terms of resources you probably cant even compete with others.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    You just described everything that SHOULD be in the game cuzz right now it is fucking next to nothing cuz the only way you ever encouter another player is 99% someone who accidently turned his antenna to wide and 1% random encounter...
    p.s. piracy and raiding IS player interaction.
    p.s.2 if you don't set a automated drone transporter you can always get the resources yourself when you are online.
    Right now everyone only makes one base with all his ships or one big ships with his small ships attached, if they find that then everything you had is gone directly, if you have multiple bases then at least you will still have something left.
    Built a medbay in each of these stations and you have a pretty good vieuw if you have lost a base.

    In space engineers there is almost nothing to be find and i think it should encourage people to built stuff other people can find!
     
  14. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This is honestly what I feel here I'm reading here. Most people seem to have a basic instinct to protect their base through various means because they understand what happens if somebody finds it. But you, you want to paint a giant bullseye and throw out a welcome mat.
    The general objective is to find and destroy the other guys base. And they way to accomplish that is to quickly build a defense platform of your own and then get to building combat ships, not plop down a slow mining device and grab some marshmellow's for the campfire. Especially if regular mining is still evolved. Whoever goes the autominer route may as well get a fatality message posted on their screen because they just set thrmselves up for failure.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    Once again, i have to disagree with that statement.

    Yes, more player interaction is probably a good thing, however given the lack of mechanics currently geared toward that end, we don't have much.
    You also seem to forget, you're not the only person who plays this game, others would prefer just the opposite, to be hermits and stick with your friends only (like myself for example)

    Yes, and like I believe i said, just because its interaction, doesn't necessarily mean its positive for the game, i very seldom play on PvP servers, mostly because i don't really feel like getting my hard work destroyed by some 12 Y/o griefer who can afford to be on all day looking for peoples stuff.
    However when i did, i generally kept to myself and hid away whenever possible, especially when i wasn't liable to be on very often, and you know what? it worked out pretty well for me, i only got raided once, and they didn't take everything, non did they badly damage my stuff. I got lucky

    And what happens when the inventory of the resource pump (and any attached containers) fills up? you'd probably just be wasting energy for no reason. while this system should never be able to do that, as that would be ludicrous for a short period of time (or you left for like 2 weeks)
    And if that base/mothership can remain undetected, you're going to have a great time, if you build small enough it should never be a problem, one thing i am generally good at is making a literal brick of functional blocks, with little to no air gaps, this means my ships can be reasonably small and concealable, hell my basic refinery set up is the equivalent of 6 refineries and 12 assemblers, but is substantially smaller. #modulesfordays

    I'll also say that your thought of using a miner base to rebuild is somewhat flawed:
    1. if a single [miner] can only get one resource at a time you're screwed, you can have literally all the iron in the world, but without all the other ores you can't build anything and you cant exactly salvage your miner to build a drill ship.
    2. that means a much larger logistical set up, i now need to include more plumbing for oxygen, maybe more of an enclosed area (assuming no atmosphere) and this is times however many ores there are.
    3. before you even say it: No, spreading your resources amongst these bases is a pain in the ass and means you have to travel to get more parts for repairs if you don't have enough at main base.

    I don't want to say it: but "Their's a mod for that" the exploration mod adds lots of other things and npc ships to the game, but i suspect keen will add something like that before the game is finished.

    I also don't see how setting up a magic auto miner to do the work is fundamentally any different from setting up a mining outpost, a small little base with your basics for prolonged mining expeditions near a large vein of ore. other than i'd probably get alot more ore faster with manual (ship) mining.



    i laughed much harder than i should have....
     
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  16. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    What I should be saying is Space Engineers is not really a game for you. Space engineers is about construction and building whatever comes to mind. While the vast majority of designs are ships, we are in fact not limited to them. There have been some amazing machines created that in no way would function reliably in pvp, and they were never intended to.
    This game does have a few weapons, but it does not make it a pvp game, nor will it ever. It is a game of free choice.
    There are games out there that cater to your 'preference'. Games like Rust or Ark survival. I would suggest moving to one of those games to find your particular playstyle than try to shoehorn others in this game into that playstyle.
     
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  17. DJToxica Apprentice Engineer

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    Yeah go play ARK Survival or Rust we don't want yo stoopid ideas in this forum we want space engineers in its current form and bugfree nobody wants stinky drills or economy.
    Man i hate those naysayers....a big advantage of EA Games is that you CAN suggest new ideas to a game you like.
    But people like you (and i mean you in form of you all) bashing on them is bullshit. And if i want to play a spacegame where i can build a cool ship and stuff like that then someone suggesting i should play something else what doesn't have anything in common with it is just stupid. The game misses a lot of stuff in survival it is to grindy and the endgame comes to fast especially without PvP.
    I hate this "space engineers is about construction and building" are you kidding me? If that is the case why are 80% of the ships in the Workshop battleships? And stuff that isn't a battleship is some form of self built weapon system.
    What point does a destructible enviroment and big as battleships and weapons have when they just sit around and never do anything? Why even bother with a survival mode?
    I don't want to offend the dev's but at the moment survival is a joke. It just a grindy form of creative with lifepoints the only feature that works more or less is mining and it is as grindy as it can be.
    And for the creative mode there is not that much more that can be done excepts for bug hunting. So we should go Beta right? Nope...
    Survival lacks a lot and the devs should look for it maybe take some ideas from the games you mentioned without stealing them completly.
    And if you want something where you can build and create i'd suggest Blender. There you can build all the ships you want and you're not bound to any Block Forms and the best is: It's nearly bugfree!
     
  18. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    The reason most things are battleships and weapons is because that's what people want to build, so they build it. That's exactly what a game about constructing and building whatever you want is all about. Most space games are about combat, so that is what people are used to and what they want to build. The forums are all about discussion and opinion sharing, and to be honest other than you and a few other people most of us are keeping it civil and just trying to get reasoning behind ideas for why someone thinks they would be a good addition to the game or why they are any different than what is already in it. Also suggesting blender as an alternative is far different than suggesting another survival game for someone who wants a survival game. By the way no one is shooting down economy in the game or suggesting it doesn't need a lot more added to survival to make it a complete game, so instead of getting super hostile throw in your own suggestions or your own reasoning why an idea would work well in the game. That's how forums are supposed to work
     
  19. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    He's got a point though, this game is an absolute joke as a spaceship game. You basically have three obstacles to overcome:

    1. Meteors destroy your stuff. Defenses require more stuff than they destroy as ammo. Solution: Put stuff behind asteroid.
    2. Pirates destroy your stuff. Defenses require more stuff than they destroy as ammo and get destroyed. Solution: Put stuff inside asteroid.
    3. Players destroy your stuff. Defenses are entirely ineffective against a determined attacker. Solution: Hide stuff (in some asteroids).

    None of these actually involve building or piloting spaceships in a particularly clever way.


    I think the game would be way cooler if the enemies weren't space pirates, but instead there was some kind of oppressive government that decreed that all space resources belong to them and free spacers aren't allowed to build things, so they have all these drone ships clamping down on asteroids. You'd have to dismantle these drones to get to the resources, and then periodically when you destroy too many of them some battleships and what not would show up and hunt you. You'd have to design various offensive and defensive measures to get around the defenses that these drone bases have, like in the beginning you might encounter just a few anti personnel turrets and light armor, with some small scale drones, but later you might encounter missiles and large ships. They would have to add some extra weapons, like railgun turrets that have long range so that NPC bases can't just be smashed easily with gravity weapons.

    That's the kind of thing that would make for an interesting spaceship game. But we're probably going to get some farming garbage where you have to forage for roots and tubers every ten minutes, because muh realizm!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Now see what you posted there is actually a decent idea and would be ideal for a campaign map. And then you ended it with insulting sarcasm. But still, decent idea.
     
  21. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    Good summary. Except pirates are a farmable resource, and you left out cybers and spiders.
    Sounds like a great idea...for a mod. :p

    Oh, I dunno if it was insulting sarcasm. Maybe we'll have to progress all the way through ME before we can build spaceships in SE. How's THAT for progression :p
     
  22. Widowermaker Trainee Engineer

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    You could also throw in a neutral or rebel NPC faction that you could pay off with random resources to delay battleships from finding you, or blow stuff up somewhere else so you have time to mine without any drones wandering past to see you or anything. Make it worthwhile to keep mining stuff after you already have a battleship with large containers full of enough resources to build a small battlemoon
     
  23. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    Or create a faction affiliate program. Performing certain tasks raises or lower a rating with a faction, like attacking one faction lowers the rating of it to hostile but raises that of another faction.
     
  24. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    Maybe you could get building missions where a faction hires you to create a habitat or something like that, and they basically put down a projector somewhere that projects what they want built and then you are put in charge of creating it for them. That way you might actually see cities and stuff pop up over time.

    The game does lack some kind of mechanic that gives you bigger goals than just making the ship, you need a reason to actually use your ships. Liberating resources and planets would be step #1 toward making the progression toward a really powerful ship more fun. But you inevitably get to the point where you have more resources than you need, and then the reputation thing comes into play.

    Character customization options like faction specific space suits could be fun, so you can show off your allegiance with something like a military suit with ballistic plates if you work for a merc faction, or a spraypainted punked out suit if you're working with raiders or whatever.

    Another thing would be crew and colonists. I personally am still of the opinion that it's a huge mistake to not implement crew at all until we get perfect AI for them (because that will never happen, sorry). Some system that lets you collect followers as your reputation grows would be nice though, because that could be a solid reward for creating stations and habitats and what not that attract people to live in your space sector, so you can then recruit a crew. If people start moving into the habitats you build there is suddenly a lot more reason to actually create stuff, similarly to how in Starbound you can turn the base you built on a planet into a colony and have NPC move into it, which gives you a reason to not just dig a hole with some crafting stations in it. Building a functional and cool looking colony has a payoff, you can even set it up so the settlers send products they create to market.

    There should definitely be money in the game, like some kind of futuristic cryptocurrency that is used as a medium of exchange in free space. That way you can start implementing all the basic X type missions of just killing some guys or moving some cargo around, and let the player buy resources. (Which is of course less efficient than mining them yourself, but an option)

    Money could then also be used to purchase anything else that gives the player stuff to shoot for in the game.
     
  25. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    I've also have liked the idea of crews. From the very first ship I've built, I've built it with a crew in mind. Of course the early models only have barren rooms but since mods I've been able to build actual crew quarters. Now I just need the crew.

    Of couse I've never been picky with my ai in that manner. One thread had people assigning even the most redundant roles wheras I believe that keen can start a foundation and let modder's advance them.
    And by foundation I always think of the villagers. All they do is wander around, and when night comes they know to seek an area that has 4 walls and a door. Didn't actally do much for the player but it was cool to turn a village into a huge city with a castle and have like 50 of these guys runnin around. So for me even if they start off simply running around the ship sitting at random consoles it would be a good start to the immersion.
     
  26. Michael_6748967 Trainee Engineer

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    Crew would be great, just as long as they don't take their helmets off until someone makes additional faces.

    Crewman 1: Hello, I'm Bob.
    Crewman 2: Huh? I'M Bob.
    Crewman 3: No way, I'm the real Bob.
    Crewman 4: I'm Bob, too.
    *remaining crew takes their helmets off*
    Crewman 3: Whoa.
    Crewman 4: ...maybe...we're all Bob?
    Crewman 2: Effin idjot.
    Crewman 57: W-T-F, man, WTF?

    Hmm...building a clone army might not be a bad thing either. Wonder if a modder will add cloning machinery and some bio-resources to mine/grow.
     
  27. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    The problem is the huge complexity of making NPC effectively navigate around in a ship that doesn't have to conform to any specific rules on how to get around in it. It can have standard decks if you're building it like something out of Startrek or Starwars, but it can also have a bunch of tubes designed for jetpacks and no discrete up or down if you're going for more realism. Lots of ships I build have interior spaces that aren't meant for people to be in at all, unless you're doing maintenance, but are things like belt armor or gravity chutes in case of loose cargo.

    Ideally you'd have a system that works something like Dungeon Keeper where you just build the dungeon and your minions know what's what and where to go, but that simply only works if there is no way for the NPC to misinterpret what they are navigating. In a game like Space Engineers where you can set up M.C. Escher style labyrinths with gravity going 6 different directions there is just absolutely nothing forcing the player to create things the AI can understand.

    Starmade has an interesting system for fighters and drones launched from ships, where you can basically build a kind of invisible rail that they will follow to and from their docking bay so they can navigate through hangar bays and internal corridors correctly. Maybe we could have something like that, where you designate the interior spaces via a kind of cube that doesn't cost resources to build and is only visible while you're in designation mode. That way you might be able to at least start making sense of things for the AI, tell them what direction is up in any given section of your ship and so on.


    Personally I wouldn't even have a problem with crew not actually walking around at all. You would simply build something like a gunnery station, it looks like there is a crewmember sitting at it, it increases the range and accuracy of a turret that you assign to it, and it requires certain resources from your ship, like a bunk. The crewmember never actually walks between their station and the bunk. Similarly something like a security station would simply spawn an NPC that attacks intruders the same way a turret would, but that person never moves far away from their post. Having crew actually move around on the ship would be nice, but in practical terms, moving around is not actually their function. There is a reason why crew is called to stations when the action starts, because everyone has to be at their post. Simulating the crews leisure time isn't really a priority for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
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  28. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    Why do so many people grab so fast to npc's or ai faction idea's?
    No doubt will they create more lag then they create good gameplay + variaity will always be much less involving npc than actual player creations.
     
  29. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    Just to fully derail your thread? :p
    But hey, we made it to page 4 before going completely off-topic, that's something to be proud of!
     
  30. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    The base is still that there is not enough going on in MP survival so it's not entirely off-topic. The drills where only an option that in my opinion could do the trick.
     
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