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Add back Safety lock To rotors

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Te.name, Nov 18, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    Ok so i had this game since it came out on steam right ive taken breaks from it and missed some stuff but this is possibly the biggest mistake ive seen keen make in a while. Ok so safety lock why do we need it well for 1 the physics are still buggy i mean AS I WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT IT A KITCHEN FLEW THRU THE SIDE OF MY SHIP RANDOMLY GIF EVIDENCE HERE " https://gyazo.com/400cd7596e721132c1cf4e5cb6d2b91a ". Two Most furniture made on ships use safety lock Some may say oh well just set limits well first of theres thousands of ships people spent a long time making on the workshop already that cant be fixed as they imploded on spawn are to laggy or just get fucked beyond repair on spawn. Three safety lock is more stable less laggy and keeps the shit from moving no matter what . Fourth Why remove it in the first place alot of people use it like ALOT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    @Te.name, you should share your world > follow the Guide on how to share the bug details and the world with the Devs so they can try.

    The Guide on how to share :
    https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/k...-fight-against-clang.7397921/#post-1287076772

    ***
    No need of Safety lock anymore ;
    For me it's much better now, well for what I've made with rotors it works fine now, tho it may not work for some creations so sharing the world with them will help a lot to see what is going on! ;)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    Again the no need for safety lock is a complete lie look at the gif at the bottom left you will see a kitchen rip out of my ship randomly also clang has increased most of my builds are to laggy to even put in a world my vtols do not work anymore the engines spaz randomly and become out of alignment there is still a need for safety lock
     
  4. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    @Te.name
    That is why it's important to do a good bug report (in bug report section) >> Add the world + the problem details = :tu:
     
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  5. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    I can not place the ships as they destroy them selfs seconds after spawn
     
  6. w0lf3y Apprentice Engineer

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    @Te.name you need 3 options in a poll if you want it to survive. I'm just saying...

    My physics is behaving much better, but I still miss the idea of Safety Locking. I've had to add landing gear onto my VTOL, and locking options into my hotbar so i can force my VTOLs to remain in the desired position. If KSH doesn't bring back safety locking I'm going to work on a PB script that will lock the landing gear for me when the rotors reach the desired position so i can get some actions off the hotbar.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    @Te.name

    Some got this fixed by loading their ship in the previous game version to do some modification so they were able to load and play in the current game version.

    Tho you can wait for the update cause I'm sure Keen Team will do something about this, well they already told us on Discord :tu:

    ***
    Even broken ships can be shared as Blueprint if you can't load in a world.
     
  8. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    WHat would option 3 be
    --- Automerge ---
    Update Attempted Shared tensor, Max break , 0 limit upper and lower Still high clang unstable vibrates breaks off explodes and all that jazz
     
  9. w0lf3y Apprentice Engineer

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    i think the obvious choice is "I don't care". Other than that, it's up to you.
     
  10. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    Update Attempted Shared tensor, Max break , 0
    Then dont go to the thread
     
  11. w0lf3y Apprentice Engineer

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    The third option of "I don't care" keeps you poll legit and keeps the thread open. weather someone visits it or not is irrelevant.
     
  12. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    I doubt it counts as a meaningful option.
     
  13. Dan2D3D Moderator

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    To help and add more details.

    After testing a lot of my ships I've noticed :

    1- Ships having handmade turrets on are moving a lot when flying = not good :(
    [​IMG]


    2- My rotating hangar for 2 small ships (figthers) is not locking anymore = not good :(
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    3- Well done for my rotating stations and rotating ships that for those I dont want to lock = Very very Good :tu:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    4- Conclusion, we now have to use the old concept to lock the rotor head using landing gears :
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    Congrats you found out why i want safety locks back
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. Malware Master Engineer

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    You're disagreeing with someone who's deliberately supporting your argument ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. Allammo Apprentice Engineer

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    Have you tried to load world with indestructible blocks and check rotor displacement? Perhaps values you've put changed to default or are incorrect and require adjustingt? Had some similar problems, fixed it with patience... Althou I support idea of reinstate block override option, cause more options give us players more possibilities to handle things, vol engine types are good example. Shame limits are not working like they supposed to, once you lock both angles at the same value and rotor reaches this value you may notice huge rise of torque. This haven't damaged anything in my builds, but I avoid locking rotor position via narrow limits.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    They are all the same there is no way to fix my problem without re adding safety lock no matter what i do they vibrate around on even the slightest movement and are prone to bug out
     
  18. terribleperson Trainee Engineer

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    There's been some discussion about this on reddit and most people seem to be pretty satisfied with setting rotor limits. You don't just set limits to 0, you set the limits to a tiny range where you actually want the rotor to be.

    I understand the removal of safety lock renders a lot of blueprints unsalvageable without loading them in an old version of Space Engineers, but you're not going to convince the devs to reverse the removal. They removed it because it caused a bunch of other physics problems and didn't properly fix the one thing it was supposed to fix.

    Also, personally, I *like* the idea of having to mechanically lock things in place with a landing gear. I'd like more choices of landing gear, though.
     
  19. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    BRING IT BACK!

    Don't care about "physics problems". There never were any when the grids were fused together THROUGH THE ROTOR. Landing gear sticking out of my ships ass to hold the thruster pods on there and keep them from wobbling is complete BS.

    I held off on commenting to see what the guy was talking about. This has not just ruined the blueprint(s) and everything they were suppose to do, but the handling and response has been rendered less than useless. I do not need "some" wiggle room. I need the damn things to remain stationary.
     
  20. Allammo Apprentice Engineer

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    338
    Have you checked what is happening in a world with indestructible blocks and voxels? I suppose it shakes but perhaps you will have enough time to try to change rotor options, maybe sharing interia tensions will fix it, or adjusting, displacement, setting limits differently or maybe blocks are to close to each other at some point. Forcing blocks to each other beyond hit box zone create tension which usually ends with fantom force causing dynamic grids to roll or move in some direction. Static grids can't be moved so additional grid takes all heat caused by colliding blocks. Usually there is a way to fix things in God mode environment, send me a BP to email gottago@o2.pl and I'll take a look into this, cause I don't believe there is no way to fix it. Everything that worked before works now as well with couple tweaks, and some of my devices are really complicated, made of dozens moving parts,worked before, works now.
     
  21. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1126778359
    There is nothing exploding on my ship, what is happening though is that the once fused sections are now free to roll around and move about. In addition, the setup that I had for the damn dropship bay with the pistons is now useless.

    The fact that locking grids via rotors was removed for no reason (non what so ever as the feature to lock separate grids is still there with landing gear) is pissing me off to no avail. What exactly was/is their intent? Why was it removed at all? They improved rotors and pistons I can see that; but why in gods name did they think that the ability to fuse the grids together was a problem or should have been removed?

    That link takes you to just one example of many that now has zero functionality where it was actually entirely operational before. Without the new "tensioner" feature, it was simple. Set the rotor to align the pod, wait for it to get into position and then lock it. No phantom "flapping" around like it does now, no fighting against the gyros (<which did actually work before until the damn grids disconnected). I don't know what that new checkbox is suppose to do but it doesn't do half what the actual "Safety Lock" did.

    Angled, armor hull-sections via rotors and rotating sections on ships: Are they still possible and do they still function exactly the same as being merged to the same grid (without having the hull sections impart forces or cancel out gyroscopes on the main body)? If the answer is yes, you can get these sections to not impart any extra or excessive forces on the rest of the ship and in turn have all of these parts act as one solid grid. Then please, by all means, tell me the secret for that tension BS checkbox so that I can adjust whatever I need to. And god help you if you say "Use Landing gear".

    http://blog.marekrosa.org/2017/11/physics.html <seriously that ship is their example of why safety locking was removed?
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  22. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,979
    Knowing Keen it's not a lie, just a lack of imagination and actually playing the game. If we can get them to understand there's a decent change it will come back in some form.

    Doesn't really matter; it's a problem with "Yes/No" polls not being allowed and liable to be deleted. Probably has something to do with keeping the threads' posts above "I agree" and "I disagree" posts.


    That is not true either. Safety Lock was terrible bugged as it liked to screw with copypasting, didn't really STAY locked when the force enacted on it was big enough (for example a Small Head locked to a Large Base would completely disalign if used with a small grid Merge Block as a docking pad) and occasionally lead to CTD.
    Having said that: they removed a problematic feature without a replacement. This is what happens without Rotor Locks:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/TardyNeighborlyBunnyDerp

    Well, technically there was a reason, it just wasn't a good one imo: it was bugged (and a "horrible hack" to begin with) and they couldn't get it to work properly, so they ladder'd it.
     
  23. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    I don't know what sort of "bugs" there were that could not be fixed. Never in all of my creations did they fail to work. Locking and unlocking.

    Safety Lock made chains of pistons and rotors rigid enough to function without a single wobble or deviation; now pfft, fat chance in that. It has completely ruined several designs that require complete and total rigidness in the design. Damn things flex like a bird flapping its friggin' wings everywhere now and it screws up the controls and response as the now LOOSE hull sections bounce around. SURE they don't break (never had that problem before when they were locked too). But they are completely useless now, when before, they were actually functional. And the timer blocks that I had setup are worthless now. So again, fun time reworking it. Hell, not even feeling up to trying to rework any of it. I can accept it being a strain on some things (not really, damn things don't have any problems unless you are being stupid with em as in their "example" videos) but to remove them flat out without TRYING to offer a reasonable solution and replacement has turned me off and pissed me off more than I thought it would.

    I don't care what they do from here on out, they need to make it possible to build a rigid structure and lock these pistons and rotors to other grids (and again, by god not through landing gear<the hell did they actually "fix" if you can still do the same thing; but with one extra block needing to be in the way?).

    Also, I'm calling BS on that video (nothing against you Rotal). That is a stupid move to show off how stupid Keen thinks players should be. Whoever that was, they disconnected a rotor head that was inside of a ship with ZERO give as it was flushed against the other grids sides. It's again a "NO SHIT" depiction of what not to do.

    Had to correct myself a bit. What that person built is exactly what was possible with locked rotors. Now, if he/she want's to accomplish the same thing, they have to use landing gear. They didn't fix a damn thing, they didn't do nothing but ruin preexisting builds that were 100% functional. In fact, it is still completely possible to fuse grids. All that they have done is made it a damn hassle to do so... unless they later decide to remove landing gears ability to fuse grids together; which will probably ruin and destroy the remaining ships I've designed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  24. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Well, you know, good for you but just because something works for YOU doesn't mean it's not broken. As i said, the Safety Lock had three major problems, and those are just the ones on the player level; who knows what it does that only programmers can see:
    1.) It fucked with copypasting
    2.) It didn't stay in place when using enough power (like using Merge Blocks on sub grids)
    3.) Occassionaly it would lead to CTD when the game didn't like the resulting merged grid.

    I'Ve got a cheeky little video for you regarding 1.) here:

    Browsing my channel for stuff for you I guess we could add 4.) It didn't like Merge Blocks in general:
    And then there was that one time i used them for voodoo magic:

    Again - Safety Lock wasn't perfect. It was bugged as shit. Still doesn't excuse removing it without alternative.


    I'd say "agreed entirely" except i don't trust Landing Gears any more than i trust Rotors.


    Ahm. Actually that IS something against me, Rotal, because that IS me, Rotal. It's a clip from a little stream i did to do some investigating regarding the possibility of using the Rotor Trick for interior design using the Inertia Tensor option.

    Nope. What i did was place blocks. Literally nothing but placing blocks; that Rotor Head wasn't touched once after the first block placed upon it.
    One of the problems with removing the Rotor Lock is that placing blocks on small grids connected to Rotors apparently leads to some inertia in the subgrid. We saw that with a smaller build in that very stream; it wasn't until we tried it on a big build that it turned into the problem you see in the video. That's the problem here. Share Inertia Tensor is fine and dandy and all but what it DOESN'T do is prevent inertia for sub grids that are NOT SUPPOSED TO MOVE.


    Actually it's not. For all the flaws the Rotor Lock had, this exact building method worked fine while we had it.


    Heh.


    I'm not so super-sure that Landing Gear and Rotor Lock share the same code; i never had these problems with Landing Gears. I DID have plenty of other problems with Landing Gears which is why they're equally as banished from my important builds as Rotors and Pistons.
     
  25. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Allow me to apologize fully for that. Looking back at it, I was rather focused in my rant there and didn't see that it was the new "tensioner" setting rather than the previous safety lock; which I know would have prevented such shaking and destruction. I failed to notice that and was under the impression that the detach button was pressed. Sorry.

    But that's what has me so peeved right now is that it not only broke major exterior appendages of many of my ships, but also entire interior sections that now are impossible to work with without negatively affecting the ships controls. I'm glad they have now "tamed" the problems but if they cannot find a way to implement a now NEW fix to what they took away, I have about lost my interest in trying to keep up with it. From the Depths is looking to be a far easier game to understand and play than SE at this point. <At least I don't have to worry about any of those designs being completely scrapped by some random decision. ...

    ok, so I may have had to go back and replace and adjust a few things that are no longer needed or used in that game, but they are things that were and are not needed now but they still have them there even if only as decorations and place-holders.

    You know, even a small heads up from Keen might have prepared me for this.

    "Hey, you know all that time you spent working on setting up those timers and crap, well, funny thing... it's not going to matter now since you cant lock them anymore. Also, FYI, You might want to uninstall all those rotating thruster pods, small-ship furniture and rooms, and stuff..."
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  26. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    Connectors?
     
  27. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Honest mistakes, happens to us all :)

    Dude, i REALLY wanted to get into that game but i just... the options menu alone was too weird for me :(
     
  28. Levits Senior Engineer

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    Again, the ability to fuse grids still exists. They fixed NOTHING by removing the locking mechanism. You can still achieve the same thing but you have to use a completely separate block either via landing gear (which is BS!), or even through connectors (again complete BS!), Hell you can even go back to using merge blocks (all complete BS!). They had grids that would explode but could be made to keep those grids from moving around, now they have grids that wont explode but will now move around randomly.

    Rotors and pistons are more stable now, why? because they unlocked the sub-grids speed cap and they are now Indestructible when colliding with their parent grid/supported grids. That's it. That is all well and good (amazing even) but it is in no way a valid reason to take away the ability to lock those grids down when they need to be locked down. No reason to remove the ability that has been working (without any problems that I've seen) since locking rotors and pistons inclusion. When you hit that "lock" button they did not move or explode. If anything, their fix and the safety lock would have worked far better together.

    Now, my ships sub-grids are right back to where they were even before the fix. They don't explode now, but they flap around like damn birds and exert forces on the main grid making any control sluggish at best and impossible to work with at worst. All of the time I spent calculating, guessing and tweaking the time on the timer blocks for precision stopping and retracting is also completely destroyed. I've never had a BUG impact my stuff so negatively than in this update. Feel like we are still in Alpha at this point.

    I want precision machines in this game, not flapping birds, not friggin' space squids (^check their video again^). When I set that torque up max and the braking force up max, I want that thing to stop and stop permanently from moving any more. When I tell that thing to "STOP" I want that thing to no longer move at all until someone straps a bomb to the joint and blows it off or it breaks off from me disconnecting it. <then and only then will I be ok with it flying around randomly.


     
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  29. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    I am not arguing for whether rotor lock needs to be readded, just saying you said no other way to do it by landing gears
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Te.name Trainee Engineer

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    Disconnects on power failure bigger less stable way buggier all in all just doesn't work
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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