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Blocks /ships to weak?!

Discussion in 'Balancing' started by Sagi, Jan 23, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    I was wondering how everybody felt about it but do you guys not think blocks are to weak?
    The slightest contact with the ground or another ships can already cause quite severe damage.
    als at higher speeds ships are mostly completly destroyed leaving almost no wreckage.
    I think blocks could be a bit stronger then this. We are not flying paper crafts now are we?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    667
    I've never done any testing but I've not felt that blocks are too weak. I mean if you're going 20m/s in a car and you hit something there is a good chance you would die and the car would be destroyed. 20 feels pretty slow a lot in SE simply because of the size of the ships you make.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Mattk50 Trainee Engineer

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    69
    as much as i like torpedos and stuff it does get a bit silly sometimes when playing space engineers, minor bumps can destroy huge chunks of your ship. I remember in the original trailer a fighter went in for a hard landing on a pad, these days if that happens the fighter and the pad just disintegrate no questions asked.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    exactly that.
    It is not even that i mind losing my ship or station with a collision i just like to have more remains and wreckage.
     
  5. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

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    I'd have to check, but I thought that the landing pads on the starting stations (like the green station) where made of heavy armor. I find heavy armor very resilient, but there's also a few things to limit damage that results in a ship being clipped in half.

    • Adequate spacing for fragile blocks. Don't have a large cargo container in contact with armor blocks. When they deform, they can damage/penetrate a container or object and send all those items as 'debris' obliterating the interior of your ship.
    • Blast doors are very good as they do not deform, they just disappear when they are destroyed. They make great reactive armor of sorts.
    • The type of impacts and vector at speed (along with gravity) really determines your damage. I recently had a close call at 58m/s, and my small ship 'skipped' the platform with some damage, but still survived. High angle impacts are debilitating, low angle was more prone to damage but survivable. For this reason I started mounting storage and thrusters higher on the ship and more armor below with crumple zones/skis. Skis of armor blocks work well if you tend to land hard and are cheap to repair. Wheels are also good but harder to control.
     
  6. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,207
    bumped a small miners drill into a wall at about 15 m/s

    i had small hydrogen thrusters all over it but forgot to account for the large one at the back.
    hit a wall between 10-20 m/s and the entire thing just exploded like it was made of warheads.

    i think the best part was that on the crash the entire game did that freeze as it calculates the heavy duty quantum theory of how much of my ship should instantly disappear with my engineer doing the death noise... "ohhhh ahhhh"

    the entire ship and game doing that frozen in point with the drill emitting a massive amount of sparks before the ship disappears from sight from such a small bump....pathetic

    A ship that size a crash of 15 m/s and only a couple of hydrogen thrusters are left....
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Mattk50 Trainee Engineer

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    69
    that trailer is from before heavy armor was implemented.

    Also i really think the whole "deforming damages adjacent blocks" thing should be removed. Kinda defeats the purpose of armor in many cases and makes everything more fragile. It would be one thing if the game supported big ships with big spaced armor layers but... it doesn't. The game stops working properly at those scales.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. Timuroslav Apprentice Engineer

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    172
    The thing is Cars aren't made of steel as much anymore. The Modern car uses more aluminum and and light alloys and uses Iron and steel as a frame for protection. Modern cars are designed to crumple to destroy energy. If some one was really pissed. They could literally punch dents into your car it isn't hard at all. The metal skin of your car has more in common with a soda/beer can that it does with a WWII battleship.

    Older classic cars are solid steel blocks which is why their gas mileage was horrible, they also needed bigger engines to push the vehicle. So the crumpling steel blocks is kind of pathetic. Steel and Iron are actually really quite strong. It's why we make skyscrappers out of Steel.

    An Adult human can punch a hole in an aluminum sheet.
    An Adult human can break most kinds of wood boards.
    An Adult human would break their hand trying to punch a hole in a steel sheet.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  9. SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

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    286
    For the Americans here (like me) 20 m/s is about 45 mph. Given that our ships typically exceed 20,000 kg on the low end, that represents a lot of energy acting on the handful of blocks that first make contact with the wall.

    Edit:
    If a WWII ship ran into the docks at 45 mph, you probably defeat its armor
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  10. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,207



    *cringes in having to rebuild these rovers in space engineers*
     
  11. SSVarg Trainee Engineer

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    7
    Why don't Keen just make parts strength moddable, or atleast give us a world option to change strength by simple coefficient. I guess that could solve many problems with people comlaining about thing being too weak or too strong.

    Sorry for the necromancy, but I got tired of gatlings tearing large ships to shreds in the matter of seconds :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    You can easily make ships more resistant to gatling gun fire with mods - that is based on a component Integrity system. Make steel plates have higher integrity or lower the gatling gun damage.

    The people above were talking about collision damage, which is a separate system.
     
  13. SSVarg Trainee Engineer

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    I'm not a moder myself, so can you, sir, point me towards such mods?
     
  14. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    I mean in all fairness a large heavy ship still tends to crumble into the ground. :(
     
  15. Oskar1101 Apprentice Engineer

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    Looks like you didn't consider weight of ships in SE...
     
  16. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    I kinda wish ships could just crash like this....
     
  17. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    I think that a well (heavy) armoured ship (let that armor count please crashing a pure refinery or pure armor doesn't make any diffrence now). Actually should be able to crash like this.
     
  18. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,207
    I'm sure heavy armor has its situations being able to tank more damage in a fight.
    but for the other 90% of the game i see it causing more damage when you crash and making you move slower. :p
    .
    I kinda hope heavy armor can become more impact resistant..because by the looks of this underrated testers video...heavy armor makes your ship more prone to damage due to the increased speed and mass
    .
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    2,788
    maybe a bumper block? doesn't deform, very impact resistant, shaped in such a way that it can be placed to gaurd edges and corners, but would not make a good pmw armor layer. like maybe a 1/4 block x1/4 block ramp. there is no way you could cover the face of a block with them, but you could put the bumpers on the edges most likely to collide with stuff. throw in a 1/4 block tetra as well to fair the ends as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Bumber Senior Engineer

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    1,018
    Wheels?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Sinbad Senior Engineer

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    too much surface area coverage. that could be exploited and used as armour against collision based PMW. (i might have to test wheels in that application...)

     
  22. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    We should not be looking for other blocks...
    Armour needs to be stronger period...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    agreed. :/
    there's a reason tanks can generally survival a building being dropped on them as opposed to say....a military jet.
    there's a reason the heavy weapons guy can survive an uncharged headshot as opposed to the scout. :p
     
  24. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    504
    The wacky part is, the density of armor, as represented in the game, is absurdly low. The density of light armor is 0.0320 kg/l, less dense than a real world empty aluminum soda can, at 0.0420 kg/l. Stepping on a light armor block should flatten it. Heavy armor is 0.2112 kg/l, less dense than real world light steel pipe. On the other hand, metal ingots, stone, and ore have about the density they'd have in the real world.

    I suspect some of the physics weirdness is using realistic numbers in some places, unrealistic numbers in others, and then tweaking things so it kinda works.
     
  25. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    Yeah and there is no water and the planet is to small and the gravity stops to soon and jumping isn't invented yet thrusters all give thrust in the same direction no watter where they are placed the sun rotates the planets instead of the other way around, you can be in a fixed location in space etc etc.
    This game has MANY unrealistic settings AS for that part it goes for most games.
    The point is it has to feel realistic.
    And right now they may give ships paper textures cuzz that's what they feel like if they hit something
     
  26. Oskar1101 Apprentice Engineer

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    As i said earlier, blocks are not paper. Game just calculates collision forces realisticaly and grid mass has huge impact on durability of blocks. My miner which has 10 tones can easily survive collision at 20m/s, but same miner when filled with ore which has 30 tones is schreded to pieces after 12m/s collision.
     
  27. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    wel considering all that perhaps we should be building them out of paper cuzz then they could do anything cuz they weigh nothing...
    This discussion is pointles, even the smalles collisions make everything break apart and vanishing into nothing.
    Ships easily damaged so you have to weld them back would be a much more logical step.
    Seeing your creaton explode only when it has a serious encounter would be far better.
    At this point there is absolutly no reason to use armour apart from making your ships more beautifull (at a high price if u ask me)
     
  28. Aguycalledhaney Trainee Engineer

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    21
    - 100m/s is just about 225 miles per hour.

    - "Light Armor Blocks" are represented as literally just thin plate steel welded into a cube.

    - The game doesn't have fancy structural integrity fields or magical bumper rays.


    ...If your heavy-AF, full of high-mass components, supported entirely by welded plate steel, moving at 225mph space ship slams into an asteroid... I think it's reasonable to assume it will fly in all directions.

    What really makes me giggle is when people load down a 4-wheel vehicle with two tons of ore and take it off a 20-ft cliff at 80mph and complain when it ends up in a dozen pieces.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  29. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,207

    true if you are going break-neck, body into mince meat speeds that bound to happen.
    but sometimes you barely touch something.
    like most commonly landing the default planetary lander and you bump the ground about 15m/s if the landing gears get destroyed chances are the large atmospheric thrusters also go and then the thing literally melts into the ground. :'(
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    What the game needs is rubber block for we have this mechanics.
    A block to take damage but regen based in deformation for each hit (excluding bullets shots and missile explosions).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.