Content Theft Controversy

Posted without immediate comment.

 

This thread will be full of levelheaded civilized discussion that will in no way escalate into a mudwrestling match about who can insult person X, Y or Z the most colorfull.

Edit: so far i'm both proudly amazed about and quite disappointed in all of you.

 

Plagiarism is bad.

I have three big problems with what Aaron (LSG) and no doubt other youtuber's have done.
1. Not crediting the original author
2. Wrongly claiming they did most of the work "inspired by" or "I've been working on this for a while", when at best they spent a few hours on it.
3. As they don't upload their versions of the content to the Workshop (which is good actually), but as they don't link to the original, none of us can have a copy in our own worlds.

As for the various claims of it was an "accident", utterly missing the point. Making a video titled "review of xyz I found on the workshop" but forgetting the link is an accident. Claiming it was your own creation multiple times throughout the video is deliberate.

 

This seems like the crux of it, really. "I built this inspired by" implies that, if nothing else, you built it from scratch using visual references to copy an existing design by hand with some modifications where required.

Outright pasting together ships from other people's creations (which is undeniably what is happening, see the tracked explorer with an absolutely identical interior) and claiming you were "inspired by" other builds is complete dishonesty and I'm very disappointed Aaron has been doing that.

 

I invite you guys to go look at LSG's channel. I just spent the last few minutes looking through his videos for the past 4 months and I'm seeing plenty of credit. In fact, I only saw one video from this year so far that failed to give both verbal credit and a direct workshop link, and that's the helicopter video. He did, however, show off everything in that video in earlier spotlights with links and credit IIRC.

Was this a problem? Certainly so, but it looks as though Arron has been on the path to addressing this appropriately for some time before this video was posted. Why is this video being posted now? Was there a delay in the upload? Did the poster just not do any follow up? Ravric did say that he hasn't tried to contact Arron, maybe that might have helped.

I can thank Arron from LSG both for me purchasing this game and for a number of his spotlight videos which lead me to downloading them from the workshop.

 

OMG ARRON LEARNED HOW TO DO SOMETHING FROM SOMEONE ELSE AND SHOWED US HOW TO DO THOSE THINGS IN VIDEOS!!



I learned how to do most things by watching youtube and looking at other peoples designs on the workshop

 

Should they spend more time linking credit? Yes.

Are they taking designs and using the the wrong terminology in their videos? Perhaps but I think they are sincere, I don't think they are purposely taking the designs without giving proper credit, perhaps they should have a link in the video itself at the time something has been used from the workshop.

Do I think that video is biased because the author has an issue (rightly or wrongly) with LSG? Yes. There are probably examples which could be made where due credit has been given with the appropriate links in descriptions etc... which have not been revealed in that video.

If LSG have realised they should be spending more time on getting the credits for content right then I see sincerity and nothing wrong (yet). They also (when done right) promote space engineers and the creations on the workshop. It's not all one sided.

 

Rodina has come on, hasn't it.

If I got one thing from this topic, it is to 'look at Rodina again'. (LSG channel)

Regards the topic, it would be a little naïve to believe that many of these YT channels make the stuff they show, concerning SE or other building games. They pop out a video every other day, so I'm not sure where they would get the time to build some of the things they show, certainly from scratch.

It happens.. I thought most viewers would work it out.
Just unsubscribe, complain directly and move on. There is little else you can do. Although you could contact YT and see if they could look into it.

I'm not defending him, if he's done that, then credit should be given to the makers. YT can be big business, lots of money.
__

Regards everyday SE players.
With building games of any type, you'll find that designs get picked up, even subconsciously without thinking about it, then it pops out in a design you build yourself some time later. Then you think, well that's a great design, thinking its all yours. When in reality, its partly the inspiration of others work. Just happens, there are soo many good designs about, many of those will have borrowed ideas.

 

Both video's make some valid points, while I feel Ravric's video occasionally went a bit off course with nitpicking stuff unrelated to content recognition, while at the same time I understand how Ravric probably felt very frustrated with the train thing. While I do agree LSG should probably do a better job with referencing and giving credit to workshop/mod authors, it probably more a matter of negligence on LSG's part then purposeful.

An idea I had some time ago to help content creators on the workshop would be for Steam to bring in 'Ad Support'. I know everyone hates ads and that I should burn in hell for suggesting it, and I'm just a greedy bastard, but YouTube is what it is because of Ad Support, and I believe that anyone who is creating free content that is being accessed by thousands of people should have the same opportunity to profit on that traffic in the same way that YouTubers do. Obviously this would create some of the same problems that we have on YouTube with people re-uploading other people's content and profiting from it, but I think there are ways to overcome those issues through a diligent community pointing out the offenses and quickly having them dealt with. Overall I think this would go a long way to supporting and encouraging more content creation outside of venues like YouTube.

 

Everytime I post something anywhere I should credit all the teachers that helped me to read and write...

 

Same... without them I would be an idiot...

I mean, I could probably color with crayons at least, I'm pretty sure I learned how to do that by myself... although I did get in trouble for drawing on the walls.

 

Stuff like the auto-follow missile, sure.

But saying he "built" things when what he actually did was create a Frankenstein's Monster by slapping together directly copy+pasted segments of two or three other people's builds with shoddy and incomplete crediting? That's not something to be encouraged.

 

He should be giving credit where credit is due of course.

I still don't know how to make auto-follow anything... or even how to script...

 

To be honest, I don't watch/follow those "youtubers" but the site LOVES to put them in my search results and recommended videos. Hence, my main dislike is the frequent doctoring of video thumbnails with things like extra flames, explosions, and missiles that don't appear in the actual game (or mod in question).

 

FOSS?
No theft has taken place on a yes. Regardless of personal feelings. That's the law. However social protocol says Wheaton’s Law applies in all cases.
License?
It depends on the license. Each layer if there more than one. That's the law. However social protocol says Wheaton’s Law applies in all cases. It is just easier get legal satisfaction if it does not. Sometimes. Youtube policy is guilty until proven innocent. They just can't be arsed reading any license now give passed battles.

 

I just spent a quick half hour looking at Steam/Valve, Keen Software House, and Youtube's terms of services and found nothing 'wrong' that is being depicted in the videos. I actually found that a bit surprising. I was sure some sort of policy or term was being broken here but apparently there isn't.

So the issue we have is who actually owns this stuff? If we make 'user generated content' on Steam Workshop, who actually owns it? The closest thing I've been able to see is that KSH owns anything made within Space Engineers. That makes sense usually. Most games with user generated content have this sort of policy. Unfortunately it means we can't rightly make a complaint to Youtube because of it and thus get the videos removed.

KSH could.. but they'd have to hire on an entire department to make sure what they are having taken down isn't actually original. They'd have to have some system of verifying. This is a case where we, the players have a better chance because there's a ton of us by comparison.

Best thing to do is when someone identifies and verifies such plagiarism. Is to have everyone riddle the video's comment section and downvote the crap out of it. Course if they remove comments and voiting, that becomes futile.

Ideally it'd be nice if there was a way for KSH to actually give people rights to their own Workshop content. If that's possible (seeing how Valve is the publisher), and then when someone claims work as their own. File a copyright infringement complaint with Youtube and take down the video. That would kick such activities in the teeth.

 

Like I said. Before people start relying on that video to form their views and drive their comments. I would like to see another video that shows a more balanced view. How many times have they given appropriate credit to the relevant people?

 

Apart from Youtube the OP also questions mods. Specifically in second video.

Mod distribution problems is a stickied thread. It has been well investigated before. Especially where a mod breaks your game because it is a fake version.

 

One could argue that crediting in comments isn't really enough, or is even irrelevant. Especially in those cases where the accused is shown saying "Here I spent a weekend making this." When in reality he subbed to something on the steam workshop and pasted it in. And this gets to be a real issue when such video is linked in a forum post somewhere. Comments aren't attached to links and you can't see them unless you click the video to visit the youtube page.

Personally, I don't think the issue is so much a plagiarism or content stealing one. But more of a misuse of assets. Content creators don't have control over their creations being used in videos. That's a larger issue that encompasses this one. I don't see any reason why someone who makes something can't have control over whether or not someone can make a video about it. Especially if such video is monetized. Credited or not, the creator should have the final say so. There's no good reason why this shouldn't be the case.

 

Shack (2nd video) pretty much nailed it. As a published author in the heat transfer field, it would really tick me off if someone took the work that my colleges and I dumped months and years of our lives into and claimed it as their own.

Did I financially benefit from the publications? Not necessarily. The publishers have though. Much like Keen financially benefits from people getting interested in and buying the game. If we kill the content creation community (both modders and builders) by disheartening the more skilled and prolific authors, both Keen and the community will lose in the end.

Let's be honest, the content creation community is one of the biggest draws of the game. Much of what is showcased in videos isn't possible without their support. When I want to show someone what you can do in Space Engineers, I don't point them to Keen's videos. I show them the Community Creations forum. Specifically this thread

Plagiarism is serious and should never be condoned or ignored.

 

Again, it's nothing new or occasional, the LSG thing have been spoken in this forums multiple times, it was precisely in this forums where i first "noticed it", time ago.
That doesn't mean he did it on purpose, of course, but well, i think that everyone with an age greater than 15-20 would expect the worst unless he/she had have REALLY good luck with people in general, which again isn't an argument or a proof of nothing, but it would be the more probable.

Anyway, it's not about if it's on purpose or if it's legal, it's just wrong, that's a fact.

It wasn't on purpose, so it was a fail(MULTIPLE fails across a long time...)? Apologize and solve it giving the credit and not claiming you have done it.
There're no more discussions, arguments or conspiracies, just apologize and solve it. No more.

 

I agree in all of the above. With the added caveats to protect a second parties rights in creating a derivative work. Or to protect future republishing of work previously explicitly distributed as FOSS or under an open ended creative commons. So if you publish a ship. Anybody can be inspired to create another significantly different variation. Or if any rights that are waived at any point in committing to distribution are gone forever. Unless explicitly stated otherwise in the license of course.

holy f...

I have been spending too much time playing KSP where everything has to be licensed. Or the mod will not get on the community forum, private distribution site or mod installer. If it is released. Nobody at any point. Is confused by the authors wishes and full respect is given.

TL;DR. Share stuff but lets not be a dick about where the ideas come from in the first place.

 

Hmm, always heard controversies about the YT channels, but never paid too much attention, I got my entertainment dose and no ads (blessed be thy ad-blockers), so in fact YT or users is probably not making much money with me. This is good to know however, thanks for the heads up @BlackUmbrellas
I've never been too much of an activist or justice enforcer, but I have to say that, with these videos in hand, it's difficult not to position oneself on the side of good. They may of course be a bit biased (due to the creator's own experience), but still have proven some good points. Therefore, I've unsubscribed from the LSG channel, I can always re-subscribe if they get away from the dark side of the Force.

 

I am pretty certain that any Blueprint/content uploaded to Steam no longer legally belongs to the Author there was uproar when Bohemia Interactive published Arma 3 on it because of this. I am not condoning somebody taking credit for others work this is just a downside to Steam.

 

Let me play Keanu Reeves for a moment - can you define "significantly different"?

Where does content rights (legally or just informally) start and end? Is the Amanda Tapping content theft? She's technically a slightly modified Andrew Probert design. But who owns the rights to her? Mr Probert? CBS? Paramount? Steam? Is the Amanda Tapping "significantly different" enough to save itself from content theft? Is so, why isn't there an anti-Rotal thread? If not, why is a replica looked at favorly or indifferent? Is she a rip off, a homage, an unlicenced replica with different name, a romulan knock-off? And what about the name, could Amanda Tapping tell me to change it if she knew about it? Would people agree with her? Although, since her marriage "Tapping" is technically a stage name, so does that even count?

 

This is complicated stuff enough. Steam makes it worse. There very careful after the fallout from the Skyrim scandal.

**** Readers please engage BS filter at this point. The following is speculation *****

Section 6b covers user content not connected to a Valve game. Warning. It will make people stick pins in their eyes if they read it.

Steam does not technically own anything. However if something is uploaded. You grant steam worldwide distribution of your work. If you remove it. Steam promises to stop distribution. If some has downloaded it before that they still get to keep it. You gave it away.

and

If that content uploaded is harmful. Steam does not technically own anything. Steam is immune to prosecution if they innocently distribute it. The DMCA offers safe harbour if they remove harmful content with haste. This also applies to utube. A take down request is always assumed to be honestly made. If the take down is faked. Tough. It is there to protect them not the end users.

 

Ultimately, I think arguments surrounding the legality of all this aren't winnable either way.

What matters out of this is the community, and what we permit in it. "Stealing" content, one way or another, is antisocial and hurtful behaviour, and we shouldn't be encouraging it.

 

Fair enough but "the community" can't even agree on what Space Engineers and it's feature list should be. For starters we'd have to reach concensus on whether or not what Aaron's been doing is "stealing" or not before passing judgement. And we're a lively and disfunctional bunch so i don't see that one going anywhere. It'd probably be smarter to let Youtube, Steam, Keen, LSG and whoever's been wronged (or thinks they've been wronged) duke this one out.

 

It is a work or art inspired by another work of art. In a original medium. Even then your humor is satire which has its own protection. Besides if they come looking for you. At least 50% of us will be shouting "I'am spartacus".

Yes. It all comes down to Will Wheaton's Law.

 

Legally speaking the Tapping is a fanwork and falls under fair use. In a sense, nobody owns it, at least monetarily. IIRC you have some copyright over it as you did make it and parts of it are novel, but being a fanwork no one can legally make money using it.