Refineries, furnaces, assemblers, + more for small grids...

Word to the engineers out there...
I use the small ship mega mod pack as standard now for all my games. The reason why is because I have naturally grew to liking small-grid designs and wanted the large-shiplike utility that is not in vanilla... but... I'm here to ask and have answered one simple question...

Why is this not in vanilla?Some peeps gonna chime in saying "BALANCE" must realise that the 'smaller versions' of these utility blocks could obviously be tweaked to do less work than the big ones, making the large block utilities still necessary.I fail to see how allowing refineries, assemblers, furnaces and warp drives on a small-grid could be anything other than a good idea. If anyone can think of why this is a bad idea, chime in. What I am asking from the dev's is a re-evaluation on large-ship only blocks... is it really a good idea to restrict functionality to only the large grid? Does it not just impede creativity for small-grid builders? Is there a reason I am forced to visit a large-grid to process ore?

As this is space-engineers I kind of expect to be given the choice of what size of machinery I want to install, seeing as size, space etc can be critical in ship design.Along the same theme also, the gas tanks should get an overhaul so players get more choice on size and shape. The current tanks offer very little choice (none) and therefore creativity... i.e. you will install this ugly large tank, even if you need only 1/4 the storage.......Seeing as a tank is just essentially a hollow container, preferably the 'tank' block should be a one block context sensetive block that joins to other tank blocks, so you can make gas tanks of infinite versatility, spec'd to how much gas you need to carry. Make donut shaped tanks with a pass-thru hole. Space your 10 tank blocks evenly around the ship so there is no critical vulnerability. Whatever you want... choice... etc...Thanks Keen for reading and all engineers.Grapplehook +1Winch +1Tether +1Those are my Space Engineers thoughts anyhow I hope you help me answer the question!

EDIT: There are misunderstandings as to my intention on why Im asking for this, with new folks chiming in on what is now a long thread. I DO NOT<REPEAT> DO NOT WANT small-grid production capabilities for the purposes of making SMALL SHIPS GONE LARGE.
But for purposes of small-grid utility for genuinely small ships. TY

 

My simplistic view is this....

You like the small ships. I don't. You have added it as a mod and are happy. I haven't and I am happy. Why should Keen change this?

For me, it takes away the whole point of having large and small grids, encourages making much higher poly ships that will have performance issues sooner, and adds a gameplay dynamic that I think makes the game worse. Easier...and worse. You are enjoying the mod so clearly our opinions differ 100%, but as it stands we both have a way of playing the game we enjoy.

I would much rather Keen spent their time fixing the large issues with the game ( falling through ice, netcode issues, etc ) than duplicating a lot of resources on a smaller scale.

As far as tanks go ... a range of sizes analogous to the cargo containers would make sense, so you can pick a range of sizes to fill what space you have. 1x1, 3x3 etc. They are just visual assets with connectors on each face. With the current mechanic, you still need to connect them all and connect them to the engines/air systems

 

What about something more limiting for small grid refineries and assemblers? Certain ores and components only? Or way longer processing times? Efficiency changes?

 

That's a lousy double standard. You're happy about the current situation on small grids so screw who isn't, but since you're not so happy with the tanks (even though others may be), you want it changed.
Let's apply the same logic to the inverse situation: I also think that that mod pack should be added to vanilla but really don't care so much about the tank, as the hydrogen thrusters are more powerful and I'd have to take fuel up anyway, so I might as well just leave any surplus on a refuelling station in orbit. I am happy with the huge ass tanks, so you can't have smaller ones and that's it, if you don't liek it go get a mod cos it cant go to vanila cos i dont wanna!!1!
How did that feel? Nice, eh?

(Actually I do think smaller tanks are in order, and like the idea of modular tanks shaped like the basic armor blocks - both large and small. )

 

It's only a double standard if you selectively remove the bits you don't want and quote the bits you do. As I clearly stated, and you chose to ignore just to start a fight....the OP CAN ALREADY HAVE what he wants and is already playing with it. I simply stated my opinion. I clearly touched a nerve with you by expressing one contrary to your own.

Was it supposed to be an insult? If it was...I must have missed it. Nice to see a cogent response....just wasn't in this thread.

My view on tanks would be a simple mod...not vanilla. Actually very easy to do. Gives people choice.

 

It's not a choice if you try to take a modded ship into most servers. I'm not picking a fight about your taste, and have nothing against people preferring to build large. What got under my skin was the attitude: on one hand you ask why should keen bother with small grid stuff (not much bother, as it's already made into several easily portable mods) but what you want is

Meaning several models to be resized and retextured, connector ports redone, and all of it rebalanced for the different sizes. Since it's not many parts, it's also not much work, but it's hypocritical since just before you said

And that made me angry.

 

But seriously, why are you two arguing? Because of a few words on a forum page made you both cranky. I say drop it or this may happen...

 

I agree with the idea of smaller containers for both grid sizes (oxygen and Hydrogen) though im not really bothered if they give small ships the other blocks they are missing such as the production blocks but i wouldn't use them.

 

I think it gives you a little more to work towards as in order to have the capabilities these large blocks provide you need many more thruster components.

I enjoy large small ships but I don't think I'd encourage them to be made vanilla.

However smaller hydrogen tanks on both grid sizes would be something I can get behind.

 

Large ships can do everything. I dont see why small-ships should get a de-buff coz they're small? They should just get smaller stuff.
My current iteration of vanilla has this large-grid hanging off the back to give it the same capabilities as with modpack, it looks ugly as sin, and has more processing capacity than I would like to have in my ship design.
My ship quite simply does not need a 'large refinery' and 'large component assembler', it needs a small one, for smaller volumes processing.

Im thinking the small-grid processing blocks should take a hit on processing time. Compare the mass of a large to a small utility block, proportionaly attribute processing speed based upon mass/volume difference of blocks, and maybe slap 20% slower after the fact as a small-ship debuff to encourage exporting ore to larger grids, and to ease those who think such a change would make large-grids redundant...

 

Because it's what the developers wanted. It was their vision a long time ago that the big ships are the workhorses an small ships would be shuttles, fighters, rovers, etc.

That's why we don't have certain blocks for small ships like doors, machinery, interior lights, or pressurization. No matter how many times we ask for them.

 

It still seems like such an arbitrary distinction. Players can and have made large small-grid ships and also small large-grid ships.

 

That doesn't mean anything.

 

Seriously i NEVER understood why more conveyor options were not available, nor why we can't have Large Ship conveyors on the small grid and small not big.

there are just SOME things we SHOULDN'T HAVE to Rely on From / Through / By MODS.

 

I gotta agree with adding, honestly, ALL blocks for both small and large ships. Not because I think id use them, but because we need the option for people that do like to use them. Am I saying I want them right now and for Keen to take focus away from other things to make them? Of course not, and neither was the OP I don't think.

That being said, I find that once I build a small mining ship and gather resources, I actually don't even use small grids any more since I have the ability to construct large ships.

 

On subject of shipsize...

Thats entirely my point. It doesnt mean anything except which grid-size players would preferr to use. Except for a players choice to make a "whatever-sized-ship" out of small-grid they get less functionality.

Im not so interested in the 'interior' blocks for small ships although I'm not against those either. Just the blocks that are essential to survival.

Perhaps I'd like a playthru of Space Engineers with carrying the least possible to survive. At the moment, least possible to survive includes towing around a large grid like survival case. Its not a bad solution to my survival issues, its just not an elegant one that belongs in good ship design.

At the moment, its like the small grid is just a stepping stone to the larger-grid, instead of a design choice with regards to a survival experience and looses its shine as soon as you get to the "do-everything-grid".

 

It's not what I meant though. It was quite expected that players were going to make small large ships and large small ships, but it still doesn't change Keens vision on the roles they envisioned for each grid size.

 

Well that's exactly why I asked the original question. To get the answer for why. Im a man of reason so I cant accept "Coz Keen sez so it is what it is" as the answer and am asking fellow engineers to extrapolate on the answer a little more than that... Keen has changed their vision based upon what we say, so lets branch the conversation out instead of cul-de-sac'ing it.

Why is that good design decision?

Doesn't the large grid essentially make the small-grid completely redundant lategame?
Why has keen pre-determined these grid-roles?
Shouldnt that be up to each individual as to the implementation in an engineering game?
Why has keen decided we should not have this choice for ourselves?
Why should the choice be denied to others?

I have seen no reasoned argument against smallgrid utility blocks so far, and I'd love to see someone make the counter-argument with some substance if anyone wants to step up.

 

Your a man of reason and yet you can't accept Keens vision...

For the questions:

#1. That's up to you, the player. If you choose to only have large grid in late game then that's your choice. I personally prefer having a base of operations with smaller vessels coming and going. I know for fact that some of my drones would look real goofy as giant ships. Plus they would be harder to store.

I could flip this question around. Wouldn't small grid manufacturing essentially make large grid ships redundant? If you think about it, you are basically saying you don't even want to deal with large grids.

#2 because they laid out a plan and built around it.

#3. The mods have already done that for you. You wanted small grid manufacturing and keen opened up the API so you can tailor it to your liking. I already know this answer will lead to the circular argument of 'it shouldn't have to be a mod' so to anyone disagreeing with it just know I won't respond to that argument.

#4 because this is their game and their vision. You are more than welcome to design a single grid building game if that is what you would like to see. We already have several others popping up.

#5. It's not. You proved that in your op when you said you have the small ship pack mod.

And then you finished that post by saying you see no reasonable argument. I hate to say it but I saw that coming a mile away because you couldn't see the reason in your op as well. I'm afraid that doesn't make a man of reason, that makes a man who has already made up their mind. An objective man can view the discussion from both sides. The reason is there, you just refuse to accept it.

 

Technically the Devs have yet to make anything permanent with regards to the grids roles nor (as far as I'm aware) have they explicitly added or mentioned any additional content to them since the time they started work on the planets.

The only thing for certain that has been added block-wise (and that was not related to the universal hydrogen thruster and oxygen system (tanks, oxygen generator, etc.) was that of the smaller air vent AND the new smaller sorter. These two things at least hint at the idea that there are going to be other changes made to the small ship grid. The vents alone both depressurize and pressurize like the large-ship counterpart. Now this may be simply due to them having simply copied the vent and not changed that aspect, but it certainly opens the possibility that they wish to develop pressurized cabins for smaller ships.

The smaller sorter as well was added (I'm guessing specifically for ore), which also opens up additional possibly with a larger (or more enhanced) cargo management system. I guess the way I'm attempting to look at it is that the grids (small-ships specifically) have yet to have been focused on yet. Considering that the Devs like to focus on seeing IF something can work first and then going on to the next thing to see if that can work, they've already proven (as with the obvious mods out there) that they can shrink any large-ship part to fit the small-ship grid. After they've tested everything else they want to add and ensured that they can work, they'll likely start back up with including additional parts and pieces that are easier to implement <since again they know it can be done.

Now, as for the actual concept of the small-ship grid being given its own list of large-ship blocks:

My thoughts on the matter is not so much geared towards gameplay as it is common sense thinking.

Small-scale fabricators already exist today which are way smaller than the large-ship assemblers. The problem with the smaller version would be that it would not have to space to construct the larger components. Computers, plates, grids <those I could see being able to fit and be constructed with ease (if not at a slower rate). A Large and/or small steel tube however is very often done via boring through a large metal rod. Unlike a large-ship assembler which has the room to allow for this en masse, the small-ship variant would only be able to create one of these rods at a time and with a drastically increased timeframe for it's completion and possibly with added waste (<or requiring more of certain ore due to being ill equipped with proper recycling facilities). Also, I tent to look upon the large-ship assembler as an assembly line process while the smaller variant would only deal with one object at a time period.

Interior lights are also something that is kind of obvious as well. I expect these to be a given by the end of the game... unless performance really does hit an all time low with Havok.

Refineries would have to be limited in what they can refine. Not because it would do away with large-ship variants but because there is no way to possibly fit in all of the equipment and material needed to refine the broad range of ores that a far larger counterpart could. Either the small-ship refinery would have to be limited to say an arc welders capability, or it would have to drastically increase the refining/processing time. Also, modules would likely be off that list as there's only so much enhancing that can be done with smaller variants.

Small, wall-mounted med-bay thing... eh, at least something that could heal you at least... maybe not as a spawn point though. <saw it in a mod and was pretty cool.

I would go on (don't get me started on how badly I want glass windows and command seats to create better looking drop ships), but the concept that a small-ship should ONLY be used for transportation is terribly limiting in what should (by practical standards) have some other small amenities. Even the space shuttle has a shower and a toilet, I'm just asking that they throw in a kitchen sink as well

As for the aesthetic blocks, such as the windows and other blocks not directly involved with survival or function, I'd like to see the majority of them added. There's no real reason not to add them unless it causes too much lag or draw on the game engine.

The only major complication with adding the industrial parts I would see is with players deciding that they want the output of a large-ships version out of a small-ship variant. This doesn't make any sense what so ever and it would ultimately lead to more people ignoring the large-ships altogether. Small ships are far far cheaper and easier to build than large-ships and they can be made to look better too without having to get crazy with material cost. So yeah, there are some deserving concerns with adding too much to the small-ship line... and just to note, I am apposed to a small-ship gravity generator. <would much prefer "magnetic field generator" or something... but yeah, the mass-block/grav gen issue would be too much of a cheat here.

 

Kenn has balanced block costs in such a way that, in order to make large ships useful in gameplay, they need to have functions that the small ships lack.

Basically, in SE a large ship block is 125 times the size of a small ship block, but has only 25 times the "functionality". Large ship armor is 25 times stronger, thrusters roughly 25 times stronger etc. This was done, I believe, to keep the costs of large ships down (they are, essentially, 5 times cheaper than their size would suggest) so they could more easily be construced. It does, however, also mean that large ships will basically always be underpowered for their size (not their cost). You can simply fit much more functionality into the same volume on a small grid, without loosing maneuverability. Without any "large grid only" blocks, small ships would probably be used for almost everything where efficiency matters, with large ships only used for looks.

Basically, Keen has decided, via their block balance, on the standard "planes and ships" balance where the large ships are supposed to be our "carriers" and the small ships our actual utility craft.

 

You might also note that a large ship block is only 25 times more expensive, as well.

 

It's also worth mentioning that making large small-block ships are extra resource intensive so they try to not encourage people to do so, because they'll just complain. Technically the small grids require exactly the same resources as the large grids, but you'll need far more blocks to reach the same sizes.

 

Well, if there was to be anything that could be rigged to large-ships favor (aside from requiring large-ship assemblers and refineries for specific "advanced" components and ores), the other possibility is survivability. When you have a large-ship variant that can survive an onslaught of rockets while a small-ship variant would end up being torn to pieces, that could also sway players to ere on the side of caution.

Best bet though would be to provide a limited capacity. Realistically speaking, no small-scale assembler or refining machinery would be able to handle every task thrown at it like a super-sized Large-ship variant could. Not sure how everyone else would want the scale of "small-ship" assemblers and refineries, but I imagine them to be roughly the size of the small-ship oxygen tank or oxygen generator. The assembler is obvious (at least to me). There's no reason to assume that you couldn't have a small "emergency" manufacturing system integrated into your small-ship just in case. Emergency landing upon a planet in a small-ship or ending up stranded upon an asteroid is pretty much a one-way trip to nowhere if you don't have the material to build a refinery anyways.

Personally, if there were small refineries and small assemblers, I'd have them setup to deal with specific components and ores in a manner such as this:

Assembler:
Can Assemble: Steel plate, metal grid, construction components, interior plate, girder, etc. <anything that is made up of metal and/or would be able to be constructed out of a small plate of steel via small plasma cutter (or whatever). Computers, Bullets (as in 184mm and 5.56 x 45mm), explosives, display.

Can Assemble with sufficient time (as in it will take a while): Large Steel Tube, Small Steel Tube, Bulletproof Glass, Power Cells, Motor, Solar Cell, Rockets, Medical Components.

Cannot Assemble: Detector Components, Gravity Gen Components, Super Conductors, Thruster Components, Reactor Components, Radio Broadcasting components.

Refinery:
Can Refine: Iron ore, Silver, Gold, etc. <any form of metals really. Smelting isn't a very difficult thing to do. I'm also thinking silicon would be possible as well... not too sure... really I'd simply settle with a small arc furnace.

Cannot Refine: Uranium <centrifuges and a few other things would likely not make it into the design due to space constraints... not really sure what goes into refining uranium and I'm too lazy right now to look it up. Whatever ore may require a series of chemicals and/or excessive amounts of material in order to refine it.

Magnesium... not sure really. Don't see why it wouldn't be able to refine it but again, I'm not sure about the actual process of refining magnesium.

Anyways, we have 3D printers you can buy at a store that can sit neatly tucked in a corner on a table, so that's not too far fetched. Actual refining... well, aside from smelting (which can also be done inside of a tin can), that would be a little bit more difficult to manage for every single type of ore out there.

 

i feel i should point out something you guys all seem to be missing. There is no "large" grid. There is the base grid or normal grid, and then after that was created small grids were added. The game when first created was all about stations and spaceships and the working together of the two all on the same basic grid size. It was only after the fact that shuttles/fighters/utility ships were added in that a smaller grid was needed and as such designed entirely to operate inside the normal grid. This is why the small grid blocks evenly fit in the normal grid.

as for production blocks on all grids, ask yourself this question. Should the spacesuit have the ability as well? Every argument made for the small grid having the ability can also be used for the spacesuit to have it as well.

 

How is this relevant for this discussion? To be pedantic, technically they're all the same grid, there's only a scaling difference. But it has no bearing to what is being discussed.

 

It's completely relevant. I'm sorry if you fail to grasp it. There is no difference of scaling. There is the normal large grid that the game is designed around and then there is the small grid which is and always has been about making things to service the larger grid. IE: productions blocks were never intended or envisioned to be used on the smaller grid no matter how much someone likes them or wants them to be.

 

Well, according to yourself the small grid was also never envisioned at the beginning, and now we have it. And planets. and pistons, atmospheres, hermetic bay doors, turreted cannons... Sorry, your logic does not proceed; just because it wasn't there before doesn't mean that it's unnatural or something and cannot be done.

 

No they weren't, I agree with that. And frankly I couldn't care less, I personally need no refineries on my small ships. But trust me, I have quite a good understanding of how the grids work. I have worked with the source. They're exactly the same grids. It's a simple property value that decides whether they are the one or other scale, and equally a simple property which decides whether a block can be placed on a certain grid scale. This is exactly what the small ship block mods do, alter that setting. The scales are 2.5 and 0.5.

Since I "fail to grasp" the relevance I guess I'll need you to explain it to me.

 

We all know nowadays (at least those who have stayed here a certain time) that keen read the forums, so many thinks that wasn't planned and wasn't by any means in keen's first idea of the game, are now part of it. So, guys, it isn't a thing about keen's first idea or what keen planned or that type of things, i don't think that doesn't matter at this stage, that type of arguments are just... rhetoric, useless.
The thing is what's better for the game, what's funnier, what's less performance hungry, etc.

Personally i couldn't care less about this, i would like glass and cabin for small grids f.i., but i really don't like small grids, too many blocks to put for something that small, i get bored and frustrated pretty fast. But yeah, why not? Apart of the performance hit, i can not see any logical reason for small grids don't having a debuffed version of assemblers and refineries. Honestly, the only one is performance.