Request for Roadmap [Open Archive]

First of all: I tried to search for similar requests, I did not find any. If this thread is a duplicate, then please bring that to my attention. Thank you.

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See conclusion
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TL;DR: We need a roadmap. Constantly kept up-to-date. Badly. Really badly.

Since I did not find any similar requests, that is even more troubling, than I thought. Let me explain;

I haven't been monitoring the SE (and even much less the ME) community, but even I can notice trends, that show the comunity in sort-of a disarray.
Go no further than (most of) the update threads, which is extremely troubling, since I have a feeling that for the most of us in the community (me included) those are the threads we see almost exclusively.
Communication on the updates is pretty bad, it's common to see heated debates between the comments, and (I'll risk it) some community members seem to turn pretty ignorant.

Having something unite us is really important, and for that, we need to have something in common. For one, we have the game itself, and that's great and all, but only the game itself is not enough.

The anticipation about every new update (yes, both minor and major ones) is way bigger than what is humanly possible to deliver. This is because every single member of the community hopes for some change, fix, content deep down. These might not be big one-by-one, but as a whole, they are a massive "want". And when a new update arrives, the community members whose wishes didn't get granted are keen (pun intended) to communicate their disappointment.

Now, if only there was a way to disappoint inform people ahead of time, so they know what to expect, and aren't thrown off when they see the changelog...

There is.

A Roadmap is the answer.

A roadmap would allow us to see ahead of time, to expect only what the developers think is possible, while you guys at KEEN could still hold us a few surprises, for example, a few bugfixes or features you didn't include in the plans for the next update.
With this, some of the disarray would naturally fade away, as there would be no reason to complain about stuff that didn't get included, since it wasn't even in the public plans for the update.

This way the pressure buildup in the community and around the game would ease; we would have more on-the-ground expectations, and I think it would be a big step towards a healthier community.

Preparing us, making us lower our expectations to reasonable levels, and keeping us well informed are all key aspects to keep a community healthy.

Obviously, this won't work if it's on a too big, or too small scale, or if it's not kept up-to-date constantly. This is key to success with a roadmap.
Also, it's very-very important to keep the already achieved points on the list, so it is easier to see and appreciate the progress the game made. (which is pretty big, to be honest)


It should look something like this:

Code:

Roadmap

So-far achieved:
- feature1
- planets for ex.
- feature2
- feature3

Before <date>:
- feature1
- feature2
- bugfix #bug-hash
- bigger feature1
	- detail1
	- detail2
- ect...

Later:
- feature
- feature

Update plans:

Next minor <version num>

- bugfix #bug-hash
- bugfix #bug-hash
- feature


Next major <version num>

- bugfix #bug-hash
- bugfix #bug-hash
- feature

(I was assuming an open bug-tracker here, I seem to recall one, but not sure if I'm imagining things or if it still exists)

I am trying to think through the possible downsides for this, but I do not seem to find any.
The two things that come to mind are:
1. It needs maintenance
2. It could throw off people if they see a wish of theirs really far down the road

But these shouldn't be holding you back because:
1. Yes it does, but so does everything in the world. Maintenance of a roadmap, in contrast with, say, a car, can be automated though.
2. Obviously it will hurt some to see "Orbiting planets" only in a 5-year plan, but let's be honest and realistic. Orbiting planets, for example, are not easily feasible in the game currently. This goes for everything else in the same fashion. Some realistic to implement, some, not so much.

This aside, I wish to gain traction, and for that, forum users, I need your help, if you think my idea isn't completely stupid;
Please show KEEN how important this could be with a reply, and a vote.

 

Firstly, as a software developer, they already have an in-house roadmap, they just aren't publishing it - can't do software without a plan; even the most flexible method, Agile, requires a plan.

One drawback I can imagine which may not be relevant for Keen is a public roadmap may defer interest or even turn prospective customers away if, as you said, they didn't see anything they liked. SE is a sandbox game so you're already reducing down to a niche of gamers. If Keen at all depends on the funding stream from Early Access gamers, then this might be a problem

A roadmap might also discourage certain gamers not wanting to get involved in testing/bug reporting issues with certain features on the roadmap, so that slows down progress and hurts the likelihood they finish the game at all. As it is now, they can depend on the element of surprise and the general participation of everyone as long as they can keep the complaints from the community down to a dull roar.

On the other hand, there's no doubt a roadmap would generate a large amount of excitement but it could discourage the larger population for less interesting features which are still critical to the overall success of the game.
--- Automerge ---
Not including the Update Plans on the roadmap would make it a lot easier to maintain.

 

Well, obviously, they do have an internal plan, how long or detailed it is... That is not a question for us to answer.

Yes, I think we agree that some might lose interest in the game, if they know "Feature A" won't be included, at least not in the near future, but this is a double edged sword: some might gain interest explicitly because a feature was listed on the roadmap - not to mention, it also makes for less disappointed customers writing negative reviews on steam, ect.

As for a roadmap slowing down bug reports... I do not think that would be too likely. The previous point of yours, that some might lose interest is what comes into play here: If they lost interest, they, obviously, won't fill bug reports.
Should this alone hurt the community so bad, that the game dies... Then, if you think about it, it would die without a public roadmap too, sooner or later.
Aka. If they don't publish updates that interest people, they let the game die, just like if they told us that "nothing interesting is coming up".

About critical features, I think everyone has to understand how important physics, multiplayer, and simspeed / framerates are (for example). If they don't - they will find updates boring anyway, and leave the game, one way or another.

The update plans are the ones most easily automated.
Practically they need to mark a few bugs that are going to be fixed in the next update (As they probably already do) or the same thing with features, and when it's complete, they mark it completed. This just needs to be exported into either a human-readable format, or a json or something, and the latter could be used to generate a HTML page, or something similar.

 

We found this confidential internal document...

 

Okay, that legit got me to laugh out loud. You're amazing

 

I doubt that's a real roadmap... it's not shiny and covered in dirt smudges and particles.

 

They are following Valve's recommendations of not talking about future happenings. It's part of the Early Access developer guidelines. I've linked to the site before, don't have the link here on my phone

[edit]
In order to not have to repeat myself
https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/...e-future-of-survival.7399776/#post-1287087033
https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/what-to-expect-in-2018.7399271/#post-1287083142

 

I can see the point of that, yeah, so they don't have to worry about delivering promises that just aren't feasible after all.
I, for one, would be perfectly fine with that, if they told us "Sorry guys, but this feature just isn't going to make it" - I am open to a "conversation" of this sort - but I do understand that some people wouldn't be so flexible about this.

Then again, telling us literally nothing, and keep promising (or implying) major updates "soon", well, certainly won't help the situation.

One way to get around this problem is to not promise anything, yet tell us what we should expect;
Only make the Update Plans public.

That way they are still following Valve's guideline: they aren't talking about the future, they are simply informing us to "expect this, but not that in 2 weeks or so".

 

@zakimano Saying anything, or even lightly implying something will be seen as a Gospel promise by the Almighty Gods of Keen. Look at Compound Blocks. They were implied very very VERY lightly, and has also been completely shut down, and people still think Keen promised it at some point.

Also, they have the problem that if something is promised, and isn't delivered properly, then people will always bitch, moan and whine and would lead to even more negative reviews.

There is no "win" in this situation.

 

@zakimano The issue is, they have already tried to be a little more open despite Valve's guidelines. Just a little bit. Two cases as example: Planets, and the not yet released Survival update. Both backfired and badly. Planets got released too early because the community nagged their ears to the bleeding point, with all the concequences that entails, and I am scared excrementless that the same might happen with survival... because if they botch that update... well. Thankfully they've stopped teasing survival. I still have some hope they'll be left alone to do that as good as they can.

So understand that I'm not defending Keen, nor protecting their interests... but my own. I need the survival update to be good...

 

Yeah, I remember those. Now that you mention it, it is true, some of us in the community just can't wrap their heads around the concept of a "concept".

I did state that they should only include stuff in the update notes that they think is possible to deliver - but after thinking this through, that would eventually lead back to the current release cycle.

There's just no pleasing of the crowd, is there?

But the problem with me giving up on this wish of mine is, that if we can see no clear goal ahead of us, then what is there to look out for? If no promise binds the developers to deliver, then will this game really reach a state that can be called finished? Or even Release Candidate?
I, for one, bought this game because it promised Multi-player deep-space exploration, exploitation and combat in a sandbox world where I could engineer and build with minimal limits.
Most of this is still problematic.
After all this time, I think a roadmap was a realistic request to make. For the aforementioned reasons.

You know what. I want that survival update too. I'll let myself be fooled yet again, in hope that they can deliver a miracle.

All this aside, I think we can reach a conclusion to simply ask keen to do what they think is best to deliver said miracle.

Ps.: I'll mark the topic as an archive, but leave it open to discussion in the future, should someone have similar ideas / interests. Vote stays open too, just as an experiment. The devil never sleeps...

 

There are some things Marek has suggested on his developer blog that they hope to include in both Space Engineers and Medieval Engineers, for example, the fruits of their separate work at GoodAI. This isn't a promise but certainly something they've made known to the community.
--- Automerge ---
I would also add that I suspect doing the update videos and before that, the developer videos, was a way for them to stay more in touch with the community. Stopping that effort has very likely allowed them to turn more attention to the development itself.

The problem is, there's been heartburn on both sides of the fence and both sides need to just drink a little cup of forgiveness and press on (bug reporting, developing, and having a good time together doing that - paving the way for this amazing game). The community also needs to realize this isn't their game, it's Keen's, but they are interested in our feedback so we're not completely out.

 

This, this is important. So many have allowed themselves to be blinded to reality and simply expect instant gratification. It strikes me as similar to many petty tantrums, like the horror stories one might hear from those employed by service industries.

I would consider this a bonus. It would discourage those who are simply not suited to the role of Early Access gamers.

As long as people are unrealistic and childish about these things, aye.

An excellent attitude, and the only realistic and fair expectation.

The only problem with this is that one side of the "fence" is regularly and actively disturbing the peace and the other side is rather tired of the crazy neighbors who won't shut up. Once the neighbors chill the fuck out we can all move on with our lives. Forgiveness is only deserved once a change is evident. Barring that, the neighbors ought to be fucking evicted.

 

Welcome to humanity ;P

 

Xocliw just pinged everyone on discord that they'll be doing a "State of Development Stream" @ March 13th, 3PM CET.

I think this is more than welcome, at least from my part - and let's hope everyone stays civilised this time.
Priority is the survival update above all else...

https://www.facebook.com/events/327258464432572/