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Serious talk... Scratched and "damaged" blocks.

Discussion in 'General' started by LFCavalcanti, Aug 11, 2016.

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Do you like the new textures being scrathed and/or damaged in some areas?

Poll closed Aug 25, 2016.
  1. Yes, I like the textures showed to us until now.

    25.0%
  2. Yes, But I think only metallic parts should be scrachted.

    20.5%
  3. I don't have a preference on this.

    4.5%
  4. No, let me choose if I want them scratched or not.

    38.6%
  5. No, textures should be all undamaged and shinny once created.

    11.4%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Okay... after this week's update video I found myself asking why they are making every block texture with scratches and/or some damage.

    First it was the Glass blocks, it's clear a lot of people don't like, including me. Time went on and they never fixed it or gave us an option to choose between normal and shinny glass or the ones apparently attacked by Space Cats™.

    I think it's about time we talk about this, because aesthetics has been a BIG... no a HUGE part of designing ships in this game from the start, even when pistons and rotors weren't around to explode in our faces, we were concerned more than anything on the looks of our ships.

    What are your thoughts? Do you like how KSH is doing it? Is it too much? Too little?

    Personally, I think we should have the option, like using the welder on the block would turn the textures on "clean" ones, at a little resource cost. If that's too much to implement in the game, at least make the texture having transparent, electronic or glowing parts not scratched, leave all the dirt, scratches and etc to metallic parts of blocks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Bahroth Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    173
    Should probably add an option to include, "indifferent, I would like these new blocks as variants"

    I think with the design choices its almost a "Miner Wars"-esque gritty future, but at the same time I wouldn't mind having cleaner interiors.
    I'm on the side of contextual use of grit.
     
  3. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    Biggest problem with scratches right there. Then again they don't want us to have interiors so i'm not expecting any changes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    They want the game to have a used, industrial feel, and weathered textures work excellently for that. Usability issues such as the "fogged" glass (which I remain convinced is more an issue of some weird reflectivity bug than the presence of scratches on the texture) can be ironed out where they crop up- I don't see any compelling reasons why the game should spend a lot of resources modelling block "decay" from clean and shiny to pitted and scratched, or to overcomplicate block placement with switching between texture variants- surely that can be better accomplished through modded blocks or texture packs?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  5. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    Jesus Rotal you are starting to get really damn annoying. The game was never meant for building full size star trek ships with full interiors. Get over it.
    I for one like the "dirty future" look they are going for. If that is the way they want it, I'm fine with that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    There's an ignore option. I suggest you use it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Late Late x 1
  7. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    You're pretty bright- the shame of it is that you insist on gearing all your critique towards how well the game lets you totally ignore its design goals and do your own thing.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    It's true that i focus on problems that hinder my own playstyle, but just about everything i suggest to counter those problems would help everyone else out in some way, shape or form, even if it's as mundane as upping performance a little. I do not see a problem with that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  9. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    "Scratches because I say so!" isn't my cup o' tea. Let's have interchangeable materials or decals, leave the clean/dirty choice up to the player. Expand the functionality of the block painting mechanic to support scratch addition/removal as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  10. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    I'll agree a lot of your suggestions have some degree of "trickle-down" to them; the issue is that, as I believe I've occasionally phrased it, you're effectively playing an entirely different game to the rest of us (or the one the devs want to make), which means your priorities do not line up effectively with the ones the devs have set or which would improve general playability for people that accept the game's designed gameplay.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Krougal Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,012
    I could give a fuck less about rebuilding some monstrosity that was designed for cinematics instead of the game engine and even less about how it performs, so Rotal and I should naturally disagree constantly on just about everything for this game...
    And yet she has been pretty much on point about everything.

    Snuck in while I was writing!
    Yeah, this exactly.

    And there's my point exactly. Her priorities don't line up and yet her suggestions do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    See Rotal, I agree with some of the things you say. The problem is you are a broken record endlessly repeating yourself. The whole forum knows you don't like scratches, you tell us so several times in each update thread.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    They get plenty of feedback from people playing it "correctly" as-is, they don't need my input on that (though i occasionally offer it when i see a problem). I would also argue that treating SE as a ship-building-tool first and foremost is actually more in line with the design goal than playing Survival is, seeing how Survival was a later addition that still lacks stuff to survive other than overspawning NPCs and meteors that either home in on you or can be ignored if you hide behind an asteroid. We can argue about scale but considering where the idea of SE came from... it's not my fault Keen didn't expect replicas in a spacebased block-building game.
    --- Automerge ---
    Probably because they keep refusing to do anything about it. And be fair here, it's hardly just me who hates the scratches.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  14. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    417
    I am well aware that more people dislike the scratches than like them, and I do feel that they need to be toned down a bit. But keen is well aware of that.

    As a side note, while I may find some of your posting annoying, I am not gonna put you on ignore. I try to listen and be open to all points of view, even those I don't agree with. Putting someone on ignore just because they are mildly annoying is immature and childish.
     
  15. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    I'd consider scale an entirely valid critique against your building goals- that the game doesn't support full-scale replicas is entirely unsurprising and not something I'll hold against it, because people can and do still build practically big things, including replicas. Hell, there people making absolutely beautiful small-grid replicas of Star Trek ships, and I'd consider their practicality and more readily-appreciable levels of detail (not to mention the clever use of limited scale) ultimately more impressive and worthy off appreciation than a half-complete behemoth like your Enterprise that exists solely to look cool and spite the developers.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
  16. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    She's not the Enterprise. Also i'd like to take offense about the fact that you seem to think i only build big ships. That is not the case.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    It's the only thing you ever talk about- you can't blame me for that.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  18. Seff Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    236
    I'm fine enough with the scratches to wait and see how everything looks when implemented into the game. I think they've made a safe, general-usage decision on the textures and I'm willing to see how it plays out. Plenty of people will have an, "I just welded this, why is it scratched?" reaction. However, that only lasts for a little while. After you've had your ship and been playing for days/weeks, and the ship is still shiny and new after you've gotten hit by a meteor, scraped three asteroids, and and bumped into it repeatedly with your small ships, you might then question, "Why is my ship still shiny and new?" Essentially, for any ship you don't immediately lose, the state of being unmarred is likely to last less time than the state of having encountered wear. They chose to leave out the brand-spankin-new state and focus on trying to make the worn state look good.

    I believe that decision is backed with good artistic reasons, as well - the scratches, stains, variances in reflectivity, all add visual interest to what might otherwise be fairly mundane blocks. Everyone asking for absolutely untouched blocks should think carefully about how uninteresting those blocks would actually look. Trying to make them interesting with additional greebling may blow whatever poly budget they're working with, or might muddle the visual design with too many shapes. As for people demanding some kind of wear system where the armor starts out new and then gets more scratched... seriously? With all the problems with the game, that is what you want them to spend time working on? New models and textures can be done independently of all their other work on refactoring the VRAGE engine and fixing MP and everything else they're doing behind the scenes, but adding a completely aesthetic, null-gameplay feature is important enough to you that you want them to task coders to that instead of making the game playable?

    What do you think this is, Star Citizen?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  19. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    Well, the small ones work fine, there's nothing to say about them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Krougal Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,012
    Yet they continue to add more scratches...
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  21. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Scratched glass (which, again, seems perfectly usable to me when not suffering from glitchy lighting rendering it glowing and opaque) is a different beast than scratched armour textures. Complaining about scratched glass (while redundant at this stage) is complaining about an actual usability concern. Complaining that they've chosen to make their general textures look worn and dented is not.
     
  22. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,841
    I don't mind or care about the aesthetics of opaque blocks. Keen can have a field-day changing their looks. I actually like the camo'ed look of the current style of heavy armor but if someone changed it, I wouldn't be upset.

    What blows my mind is when their aesthetic decisions affect functionality. Window'ed blocks are designed to be seen through. They server a FUNCTION. Sticking a big blob of space-crap and deep scratches all over them severely hampers performance. It's one of those baffling decisions where the boss makes a decree and the minions are afraid to challenge the wisdom of such a decision; especially when so many of the CLIENTS dislike the revamp.

    Windows are for seeing through. Smudge the corners if you must, but at least let us see through them. Even in the grittiest of of worlds... the squeegee still exists.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  23. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Accentuating the negative is exhausting to be around. There's a reason there are people who bring up your constant negativity, you know.

    I mean, I can't force you to stop complaining about your Enterprise (sorry, "Amanda Tapping"?) not working- but its never going to, and I think a lot of people would absolutely love to see and hear more about your less frustrating creations.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Capt. Favio Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    101
    Chill out guys, this is the path the game has taken, and this desition comes from inside Keen (marek?), and there is NOTHING we will be able to do about it (saddly). Besides i just cheked Natiq Aghayev past work and he is very inclined to make worn/scratched textures and destroyed enviroments, it is a choise made. I do agree that Spacecraft its not worn/scratched after a few battles, but we will not get any atention to our votes.

    [​IMG]

    We may see the game turn on this on the upcoming months.

    And the discution with @Commander Rotal , I agree with her posts, they are usualy on point and for the player base.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  25. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,976
    It's hard to stay positive when the game keeps cutting down the stuff you love about it. Like, to adress this one:

    Yeah probably not but it'd be nice if it ran as good as it used to. Sure, the Conveyor-fix upped her SimSpeed up to 1.0... but ever since they tied Ship Speed to Sim Speed (which, yes, also effects Offline Mode by nerfing acceleration, just not reducing maximum ship speed) she has turned into an imoveable object. A full 42 Deck version is never going to work; i know that, i'm not an idiot, but it'd be nice if they didn't screw her over in some way every couple months. As an extention my currently biggest beef with Keen, the Forced Station Voxel Support, is cutting directly into the way big ships are built. Am i just supposed to say nothing?

    I've got a thread for that. They can go there or ask.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Captain Broadstairs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    469
    I think the real grievance is scratched glass, other than that I am in agreement with Seff. Its more efficient to make blocks look worn because that will be the most appropriate appearance for the majority of the blocks lifetime in game.

    While dynamic wear would look nice, I don't think the time investment in building in such a feature is an appropriate use of development resources.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  27. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    I kindly ask to cut off the Flame War that is starting please...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. noxLP Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    729
    I like scratches, they remember a decadent/cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic sci-fi look that i love so much, and fits so much better a SE survival environment, where you have not a maid that kindly cleans your ship every time you come back to the base, after mining tons of ore while rocks, pirates, robot-dogs, alien spiders and what not(clang) are trying to get your ship to the ground.

    I agree that glass scratches are too much though.
    The amount of glass scratches we currently have should be like the first deformation step due to damage. The scratches in the blocks we saw today at the update video looks pretty nice to me.

    Edit:
    Also, i wouldn't mind if they come with a system to choose scratched look or shiny look, something like what material you want to build the block, but a complete system to change the texture in time... seems overkilling to me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  29. RayvenQ Moderator

    Messages:
    562
    On armor blocks I like the scratches and dings, I feel it gives the blocks a bit more life and character, though I do think the glass shouldn't be scratched.

    And I will be reviewing this thread and handing out warnings approppriately.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  30. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    I like scratched and dented ships ....especially well worn and used mining craft. They are utilitarian, and would have the systems maintained, but not the cosmetics. Maybe the occasional paint over the scratches to stop rusting.

    BUT

    I don't want to build everything like it's been in use for years. I want to have shiny new ships too.

    IF we had an option, maybe that would be nice .... but really...what I would like is for ships to start off shiny and new, and get scratched and dented with time. System resource heavy, I suspect...and more complex... but it would mean scratched and beat up blocks would make sense. Maybe...if a block gets damaged and re-welded....then it should be scratched. It also needs to be random. The windows look dumb with every pane scratched the same! The same goes for artificial damaged blocks. If the pattern is clearly repeated, it just looks fake
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.