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Ship won't stand still, ever

Discussion in 'Gameplay Help' started by Cetric, May 4, 2019.

  1. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    757
    Creative mode. Single player. Large grid build.

    Problem:
    Large ship of battlecruiser size cannot be brought to a stand still in space. It will slowly accelerate into one direction (sidewards, to larboard, if there is also a pull to another direction added, I don't know) and this happens also with shut off engines. When they are engaged, exhaust flames occur on the side of the ship which is the direction of the pull.

    I have read so far that sub grids may be the reason for troublesome weight distribution or center of mass calculation, something in that style. And you should override thrusters to compensate for this. Is this correct? I don't seem to get a positive result when trying to fix that pull to one side, it's not even clear after some tinkering if thrusters of opposite direction or of same direction like the pull have to counter it.
    This pull is so strong that my basic ion thrusters won't stop it from accelerating the ship. I have to switch on separate thruster systems (much stronger ones) to get it close to a stand still, but 0,3 m/sec are always happening, no matter how many are firing.
    Yes, there are several piston-operated platforms on board and a couple of rotors. These have been switched off, to no avail.

    Question:
    How to fix? By thruster finetuning or is there a script for automated, immobile idling? If standard dampering fails?

    Goal:
    (primary) Making ship immobile when no propulsion is engaged.
    (secondary) Or at least kept at a place with help of thrusters successfully countering the pull.
     
  2. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,497
    You can also use Gyro over ride to compensate. You did not mention if you do have a sub grid. Rotors and sometimes pistons will make your ship move in one direction, even if you have them off and locked.

    Check out the Clang Summoner, before pressing the button to summon make sure piston and rotor are off, hit the button, and it will still clang. :)
     
  3. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    757
    I mentioned I have subgrids:
    Even several of them: platforms which expand out of bunkers and bring artillery batteries into the open.
    Is there a directional meaning of gyro overriding or they work in every direction simultanously?
    I remember there are several sliders on every gyro.
     
  4. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,187
    I’ve had the very same problem (also playing single-player, but in creative and survival mode) with ships not being stable (i.e., creeping in a certain direction), but usually in a planetary gravity well and not in space. My experience has shown that the problem has always been with rotors and/or pistons in the build. If I have any on a ship that just won’t stand still, I have found that removing them (not disabling them; that doesn’t work) always solves the problem. Inasmuch as I like to use rotors and pistons so I can make the ship actually do something (i.e., have some animation and movement), lately I’ve avoided them completely on anything but a station.
     
  5. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,755
    Gyros might compensate for roll, pitch and yaw, by they won't stop drifting. You might be suffering from SIDS (Subgrid Induced Drift Syndrome, aka Phantom Force). Subgrids attached to pistons and rotors will still behave as a separate grid, constrained only by their attach point. Any motion in one grid will be transferred and even magnified by the piston/rotor and drift may occur. You might try invoking Shared Inertia, but for me that usually results in an explosion.

    I recently re-designed my main drill ship with a number of large, heavy subgrids and the damn thing just will not stay put or fly straight. Before I can use it to drill an asteroid I have to tether it with a landing gear. It's a handful to fly but the auto-pilot seems to have no trouble. Since the landing gear and the auto-pilot seem to take care of my most pressing concerns, I'm willing to put up with a bit of drift.
     
  6. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    757
    Removing them? Too bad, that would annihilate the concept of this ship altogether. I liked that hidden weaponry behind hangar doors you move out and the ship suddenly looks much more bellicose. :)
    If it would only be creeping, I would not even have opened this thread. As a minor problem.

    She is accelerating, steadily, and if I let this go on, I end up with 100 m/sec sidewards, or beyond!
    --- Automerge ---
    As the pistons are already switched off, this will be my last remedy. Shared inertia and waiting for explosion.
    But first I try the gyro thing Mojoman talked about. As it promises me... less explosions. :clang:
     
  7. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    819
    Such movement sometimes happens when there is "tension" of a subgrid against the main grid

    like a piston that appeared to pull into a tight fit, but is actually continually straining- that=Clangian motion imparted. I often have pistons minimum distance be about .2m for this very reason

    Or a rotor left to "turn this way and ill just let the torque settings stop it when it hits the wall", then turning it off still "hitting the wall" also = Clangian motion
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,428
    Interesting... I've wondered why someone would not want to use shared inertia since for me it's always be the way to fix mechanisms to the point of me just switching them on by default now.
     
  9. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    435
    If any of the rotors and pistons have force values in the red I would start by unlocking them and lowering their forces down into the blue.

    If that doesn't work, lower the forces even further (maybe half to 1/4 of max blue threshold, or as low as they can go that still works for your purposes). Disabling shared tensor of the first subgrid block in a series may help with this as it will lower the force required by the subgrid blocks.

    If that doesn't work check for clanging grids. Blast door blocks wedged against armour due to rotor over extended is my worst culprit. For this you need to be aware of the 'effective area' that some blocks have, and not rely on just how they look. To see a clear example of what I mean place a rotor with armour blocks all around it (except the head). In terminal extend the rotor head +.2m and place a line of blast door blocks as if you were making a clock arm. In terminal retract the rotor head as much as possible and ta da clang mightiness. A related rare case is something blocking airtight hangar doors. Additionally, if you smash two connectors together when docking another ship this can be considered clang by the game. I always relax the controls and let the connector magnets properly park the small ship before I lock.

    If it still happens are you using grav generators? Loose objects weighed down by artificial gravity will also cause drift on an otherwise proper grid, and can also clang out when wedged into small grooves (like the slots of an inserted connector's skinny sides) or doorways. An object cleanup would fix this.

    If it still happens Keen has a totally not useless true story support site you can post feature notifications on.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
  10. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    757
    Thanks guys. That's a lot of suggestions for a single thread.
    When I build the ship, I had her anchored to an asteroid and turned into a station for undisturbed construction and no sudden jerks.
    This spared me earlier visits by Clang and messing things up. But also conceals the actual reason for this phenomenon now as she is close to completion.
    --
    By the way, all four main cannons on that extractable platform below have their barrels clipping through the blast door blocks when being retracted (no physical/damaging collision though). Could that be meaningful in regard of producing ghost pull to a side? - I shall extract the platform, this should be ruled out once the bottom artillery is in free space outdoors.
    --
    Anyway, I have a complete to-do-list now. Hope one of the ideas is the solution. Will report here when I have a result.
     
  11. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    819
    "Hidden deployable weapons" is a common clangian phantom collision motion (wow thats a tongue twister- needs an official term) culprit. Turrets especially appear to have only a 1x1x2 area, but is actually much bigger (3x3x3 im guessing)
     
  12. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    115
    First.. no expert here but yes, playing with settings, understanding the influence of blocks on others.. etc makes a huge difference. While it may LOOK like it is not interacting, you could potentially have block interaction you cannot see.
    Isolate would be my suggestion rather than seeing this as one huge problem, reduce it to a less complex version until it no longer occurs and then, viola!, this is your problem.
    You are in creative according to the post. If was me, I would copy the blueprint and paste it in again, or in another world and start with deleting those clangable blocks.
    I had a similar situation once where I could not isolate so I just made the mechanisms free standing and was able to determine that it was just my bad design.. not enough clearances, etc.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    819
    Or.. you know.. just build small ships about car sized, and large ships apartment building sized... and just be. hmm... whats the word??
     
  14. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    757
    Update (don't expect logical news...):
    (1) Copied and pasted whole ship. Surprise: this duplicate is motionless now after materialization. No drift at all. Once you start the engines (any of her three systems, one being basic ions, one hydro acceleration, one modular ion for maximum thrust) and move a bit and step off the gas pedal, the dampening brakes her down to 0.11 m/sec which is a huge progress compared to continuous acceleration with anything but modular ions switched off.
    (2) Removing all piston-driven platforms from the copy ship have no perceivable effect. Just the same 0.11 m/sec drifting.
    (3) Original ship continues drifting with 0.80 - 0.34 m/sec and can't be brought below that. Switching off modular ion propulsion will cause uncontrolled acceleration as before.

    Have not tried yet override by gyros.
    I want to believe the observed improvement has to do with major update the game received meanwhile.
    Cannot explain the behavioral difference of original and copy.
     
  15. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,187
    I think you've reached the point where the next logical step is to get a priest to perform an exorcism.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    819
    "modular ion propulsion" <--- ??

    thrusters on subgrids?

    Honestly just upload the grid and let us pick it apart like Clangs' very own auditors :)

    Theres always some block poking its hitbox into some other block that dont like it there... and it takes the experienced eye of someone who has suffered from it in the past to spot it
     
  17. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    757
    You don't know the modular ion thruster modpack? I think it is popular. Let's you build all shapes of thruster clusters. But makes a hell of a noise.
    https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?l=german&id=388525350
     
  18. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,187
    Hey, I've used those modular thrusters several times, but not in German. Maybe that's the problem... :p
     
  19. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,755
    It might be this:
    I remember my first attempt to get one large grid ship to stay put on a larger grid ship was to use gravity generators. I put artificial mass on the "small" ship and used the GG to bring the ship to the deck and hold it there. Since all this was happening in space and the ships were so large, it took me a while to notice that my large ship was moving. I had, of course, just built a troll drive.

    Gravity generators are not supposed to affect normal blocks. That's what the artificial mass blocks are for. However, it's Space Engineers, sooo....

    If you have gg's on, turn them off and see what happens. The fact that your copy doesn't move as fast as the original suggests that there may have been something loose that the gg could get a grip on that didn't make it to the copy.

    However, I believe your piston mounted cannons are the culprit.
    Once I abandoned using gravity to hold ships to my deck, the only other thing that has ever made my ships drift in my last 8000 hrs or so of gameplay is subgrids attached to pistons or rotors. There are some things in the game you may have to just live with.

    A REAL engineer would turn it into a feature :D
     
    • Late Late x 1
  20. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,187
    That's been my experience. Piston- and rotor-mounted anything seems to cause a ship to drift. Why, I remember once when.................
     
  21. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    819
    Wake UP, gramps, ya dozed off again re-re-re-re-re-re-re-retelling story #4 of 12 thats still rattling around up there.
     
  22. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,755
    If ya don't respect yer elders, whippersnapper, next time I'll tell the long version.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  23. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,187
    Boy, don't you go startin' again now!