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Small batteries are vastly superior to large batteries. This is a problem.

Discussion in 'Balancing' started by odizzido, Sep 13, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. odizzido

    odizzido Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    684
    The biggest problem is simply that there is no point in building large batteries. I made a short video to demonstrate.
     
  2. tankmayvin

    tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,864
    Bunch of the small grid blocks are vastly superior to the large grid ones.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. SilentShadow

    SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    286
    Haven't watched the video, but are you referring to fact that 3 small batteries equals ~1 large battery, but at a cost of 60 cells vs 120 cells?

    In theory, it should make sense but since SE doesn't do voltage it gets funky. If 20 cells get you ~1MWh, then 60 (20 * 3) should get you ~3MWh. But at the same discharge rate (same voltage) as the small. This assume cells are in parallel. Double the cells (this set in series) to double the discharge rate (voltage).

    The game mechanics don't really delve into this. My best guess
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Robotnik V

    Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    382
    In terms of mass vs power output, a large ship small reactor easily beats a battery. A small ship batter easily beats a small ship large reactor in power vs mass. Last time I checked there was a decent amount of non essential components that can be removed from the large ship battery in order to make it lighter and increase its mass vs power output.
     
  5. McTraveller

    McTraveller Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    118
    Space Engineers is terrible at consistent or sensible scaling between various sizes of blocks and their required components. Look at the armor blocks for instance; the masses of the large blocks is 25 times the mass of the small ones (e.g., 500kg vs 20kg) which suggests they are built like surface area, but a light armor slow (1x1x1) mass is 260kg / 20kg isn't consistent with that - the large grid variant scales like volume (half the whole block - if the armor is a hollow cube you'd expect a mass of about 367kg, not ~250) but the small one has the same mass as the full cube (instead of either 50% or 73% if based on volume or surface area).

    Thrusters - the same size grid variants take 12 times as many thruster components going from small to large for 12 times the thrust, but going from a small grid to a large grid takes 80 times as many for only 24 times as much thrust.

    Small cargo containers - the large is only 13 times as massive as the small but has 25 times the surface area, so it's should be worse than half as strong. Also, I can't think of why a large grid cargo container needs 2 computers instead of 1. It's also kind of baffling that a small grid large cargo container - basically the same size as a large grid small cargo container - weighs less than the large grid variant (and also requires 6 computers instead of 2).

    Suffice it to say, arbitrary construction requirements (and therefore masses) are arbitrary and often result in counterintuitive optimal designs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. retep998

    retep998 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    43
    In my personal mod I counted how many power cells were actually visible in the construction models (2x4x3 for small and 7x7x4 for large), and then multiplied that by a constant factor to get the power storage and input/output. The end result is quite balanced. (It also contains the tweak to get back power cells and not scrap from batteries)
    Code:
    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
    <Definitions xmlns:xsi="https://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="https://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
      <CubeBlocks>
        <Definition xsi:type="MyObjectBuilder_BatteryBlockDefinition">
          <Id>
            <TypeId>BatteryBlock</TypeId>
            <SubtypeId>LargeBlockBatteryBlock</SubtypeId>
          </Id>
          <DisplayName>DisplayName_Block_Battery</DisplayName>
          <Icon>Textures\GUI\Icons\Cubes\Battery.dds</Icon>
          <CubeSize>Large</CubeSize>
          <BlockTopology>TriangleMesh</BlockTopology>
          <Size x="1" y="1" z="1" />
          <ModelOffset x="0" y="0" z="0" />
          <Model>Models\Cubes\Large\BatteryLarge.mwm</Model>
          <Components>
            <Component Subtype="SteelPlate" Count="20" />
            <Component Subtype="Construction" Count="10" />
            <Component Subtype="PowerCell" Count="196" />
            <Component Subtype="Computer" Count="25" />
            <Component Subtype="Construction" Count="20" />
            <Component Subtype="SteelPlate" Count="60" />
          </Components>
          <CriticalComponent Subtype="Computer" Index="0" />
          <BuildProgressModels>
            <Model BuildPercentUpperBound="0.33" File="Models\Cubes\Large\BatteryLargeConstruction_1.mwm" />
            <Model BuildPercentUpperBound="0.66" File="Models\Cubes\Large\BatteryLargeConstruction_2.mwm" />
            <Model BuildPercentUpperBound="1.00" File="Models\Cubes\Large\BatteryLargeConstruction_3.mwm" />
          </BuildProgressModels>
          <BlockPairName>BatteryBlock</BlockPairName>
          <EdgeType>Light</EdgeType>
          <BuildTimeSeconds>45</BuildTimeSeconds>
          <ResourceSourceGroup>Battery</ResourceSourceGroup>
          <MaxPowerOutput>19.6</MaxPowerOutput>
          <ResourceSinkGroup>BatteryBlock</ResourceSinkGroup>
          <RequiredPowerInput>19.6</RequiredPowerInput>
          <AdaptibleInput>true</AdaptibleInput>
          <MaxStoredPower>4.9</MaxStoredPower>
          <InitialStoredPowerRatio>0</InitialStoredPowerRatio>
          <InventorySize>
            <X>1</X>
            <Y>1</Y>
            <Z>1</Z>
          </InventorySize>
          <Public>true</Public>
          <DamageEffectId>214</DamageEffectId>
          <DamagedSound>ParticleElectrical</DamagedSound>
        </Definition>
        <Definition xsi:type="MyObjectBuilder_BatteryBlockDefinition">
          <Id>
            <TypeId>BatteryBlock</TypeId>
            <SubtypeId>SmallBlockBatteryBlock</SubtypeId>
          </Id>
          <DisplayName>DisplayName_Block_Battery</DisplayName>
          <Icon>Textures\GUI\Icons\Cubes\Battery.dds</Icon>
          <CubeSize>Small</CubeSize>
          <BlockTopology>TriangleMesh</BlockTopology>
          <Size x="3" y="2" z="3" />
          <ModelOffset x="0" y="0" z="0" />
          <Model>Models\Cubes\Small\BatterySmall.mwm</Model>
          <Components>
            <Component Subtype="SteelPlate" Count="5" />
            <Component Subtype="Construction" Count="2" />
            <Component Subtype="PowerCell" Count="24" />
            <Component Subtype="Computer" Count="2" />
            <Component Subtype="Construction" Count="3" />
            <Component Subtype="SteelPlate" Count="20" />
          </Components>
          <CriticalComponent Subtype="Computer" Index="0" />
          <BuildProgressModels>
            <Model BuildPercentUpperBound="0.50" File="Models\Cubes\Small\BatterySmallConstruction_1.mwm" />
            <Model BuildPercentUpperBound="1.00" File="Models\Cubes\Small\BatterySmallConstruction_2.mwm" />
          </BuildProgressModels>
          <BlockPairName>BatteryBlock</BlockPairName>
          <EdgeType>Light</EdgeType>
          <BuildTimeSeconds>30</BuildTimeSeconds>
          <ResourceSourceGroup>Battery</ResourceSourceGroup>
          <MaxPowerOutput>2.4</MaxPowerOutput>
          <ResourceSinkGroup>BatteryBlock</ResourceSinkGroup>
          <RequiredPowerInput>2.4</RequiredPowerInput>
          <MaxStoredPower>0.6</MaxStoredPower>
          <InitialStoredPowerRatio>0</InitialStoredPowerRatio>
          <InventorySize>
            <X>1</X>
            <Y>1</Y>
            <Z>1</Z>
          </InventorySize>
          <Public>true</Public>
          <DamageEffectId>214</DamageEffectId>
          <DamagedSound>ParticleElectrical</DamagedSound>
        </Definition>
      </CubeBlocks>
    </Definitions>
    
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  7. SilentShadow

    SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    286
    I believe the power cell to scrap thing was simply to prevent ppl from grinding and welding batteries for free power.
     
  8. retep998

    retep998 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    43
    Which is why I have <InitialStoredPowerRatio>0</InitialStoredPowerRatio> to get rid of the free power.
     
  9. SilentShadow

    SilentShadow Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    286
    Nice. Doing see that at first.
    Yay for hackable batteries
     
  10. Michael_6748967

    Michael_6748967 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    95
    I guess it works fine until you accidentally drain the batteries to zero and the connector loses power. Guess you could just slap a small reactor on there to get the connector locked again, and set some of the batteries to recharge. I'll keep it in mind as a supplemental power source; having dockable battery banks is not a bad idea anyway. With the smaller size and ability to connect to either grid type, they should be more reusable, too. I always disliked duplicating battery construction (for both grids).

    It's worth mentioning that small ship weapons can be connected to (and fed by) a large ship using a connector. You can make some rather potent weapon pods this way, and fit in little cameras for zoom/accuracy.
     
  11. ViroMan

    ViroMan Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,123
    Connectors do not loose lock unless both grids die... or bug happens.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.