Universal Hull Designations For Space Engineers

High Ground has been nice enough to make us a new chart that seems universal enough to use for most things of a military nature. Let us know what you think!

Here is a "revised" ship classification system that is more practical for multiplayer/tournaments. While this is not perfect and a work in progress, it does give us the ability to create a level playing field under certain conditions.

So for example we are going to have a friendly little game where each opposing fraction builds a ship with in the limits of say a Corvette in this case. so the weight limit is between 500,000-1,500,000 kg. This could lead to some interesting scenarios, for example, if you want your ship to be decked out in weapons you can do that but at the expense of armor or vise versa.

While I never see everyone adopting this system is nice to have some sort of guide to classify ships under "certain" conditions like a tournament. Another example would be we are having a fighter competition to see who is the best at dog fighting. The rules are 1 rocket launcher, 4 gatling guns and a weight limit of no more than 30,000 kg and only light armor, Now go build a fighter. Now you have to choose between a lightly armored ship build for speed, a balanced craft, or a slow armored ship that can take a beating. No way to say who would win in such a scenario but I makes for a level playing field of sorts. Which is all most of us seek to create.

And from a historical perspective, weight limits where agreed upon by the major powers in the world at the Washington Naval Conference (Nov.1921 - Feb.1922) which placed limits on how much tonnage each nation could possess and on how heavy a Battleship could be. While the treaty lasted it created stability during the 1920s up until 1936 when the Japanese officially dropped out.


*Original Post Below*

FIND OUT THE SIZE OF YOUR SHIP!!!

I posted this over in the Craft Class thread and it got a positive response so now I'm posting it for everyone's consideration.

Did you ever wander just what kind of ship you built? How big is it? Is that the same as in the real world? The answer is that ships in Space Engineers are relatively heavy for their size. Add to that nobody has managed to build a ship that's anywhere close to the biggest ships that exist on Earth today and things get really out of hand.

What I did was research hull designations online and found out their tonnages. Then I did a bit of rounding and compared them to the ships I found in Space Engineers. The biggest ship I could find was less than half the size of a Nimitz class supercarrier. I checked out the ship and it is absolutely huge for gaming purposes. So I decided that half scale was good enough and divided my numbers by 2. I checked other ships I found against the new scale and it wasn't bad. I moved a few numbers around and here is what I came up with.

(BTW, I know the whole dreadnought/leviathan size is made up. I just wanted something to match a supercarrier in size)

 

Get some more input from other players and when the community agrees on something, let me know and I will sticky this thread.

 

I have made a mistake, I like this idea. Meant to vote "It's not bad, I could use it"

:rolleyes:

 

I was tempted to vote burn it with fire for fun, the realised its a potential for sticky

You know I back you up in this since it was born from my thread I know where the basis of the information comes from

So yes from me, it makes it easier for beginners or casual players to 'title' their ships
Which should encourage newer players to share their creations which in turn increases activity which increases traffic, which makes us higher in googles books, which means more advertisement for the Devs, which means more money and more updates and more fun which makes everybody happy!

Except him... He's never happy... *points at the local forums pessimist!*

 

I can't get behind anything that has such bad cropping...

 

I promise I'll crop it shortly

EDIT: Done

EDIT #2: I believe the forum is using a cached copy of the image so it doesn't appear to have changed.

 

Hmm mine doesn't fit in that chart... she's 9.5Mkg but a carrier. I suppose if she's docked with her two ARMD support carries she'll be around 15M kg combined. I suggest a lighter Support carrier class be added just below light carrier.

 

I didn't want to make something up and most modern small carriers are VTOL which, as a distinction, doesn't exactly apply to spacecraft. I wouldn't want to call your baby a helicopter carrier. So if you read the note below you'll see it is a light carrier.

 

This classification won't change your build in anyway. If you want to call it a super carrier you can. It's just giving everyone an idea on how to classify their creations. Many fleets will call their largest carrier it's super carrier even if it's small compared to others.

 

Winkie, I cropped and pasted the new photo in there for you. Hope it works well. If you have a higher quality one, I can put that in there instead.

 

I do not think carriers should be restricted to the red category. There should be some in the green and blue range as well. I will support a community standard of general classification, but I doubt I will use it to classify CUE Corp ships. I will however link and mention the standard in my CUE Corp thread when it becomes official, to clarify I do not use the standard.

 

So are you guys asking for 'all up' carrier designations for smaller ships or just for any ship with a landing bay? I intended that any ship could be a carrier but I figured only ships that were primarily carriers would need the carrier designation. If you really want smaller carriers I could add pocket carriers or I could do a group of carrier cruisers.

In my own shipyard notes I have role types for full designations which include things like escort.

I want this to belong to everyone so I'll take your advice

 

I not see very clearly this way to differentiate the ships. To what category it belongs this ship? https://forums.keenswh.com/post/my-space-freighters-6597254. This ship has a mass of only 4038792 kg, but 336 is capable of carrying large containers. What weight is a, light hauler, but load capacity, there is nothing as big in the forum ... Now I ask out of curiosity. Is that ship is a light hauler, or is a heavy freighter? I have it published as in Steam like a "Super Heavy Freighter".

I differentiate my otherwise military ships. I have in mind shielding, maneuvering, weapons, or their role (if for patrolling or for fighting directly for example) in addition to the mass.

 

Gona be interesting seeming how one of my ships has 35mil KG and my "uber scale project" is estimated to end up in the 800 mil KG range!

 

I do not think carriers should be determined by size/weight but by hanger capacity. I could build a small carrier that has a hanger capacity of like 20 or so fighters and have it only weight a few million kilos (or less), it has the weight of a DE or FR but it is not either of the two.

Likewise, my fighter classes currently are:
Approximately 5,000Kg = ('Pocket') Light
Approximately 15,000Kg = ('Standard') Medium
Approximately 25,000Kg = Heavy
50,000Kg range is = ('Assault') Super Heavy

Currently I am trying to find a preferred size for my large ships. I don't go off of weight as much as I go off physical size (with armament, mobility, mass, defenses, etc as secondary constraints). You could very easily have a CV with more firepower/defenses than a DE. What we need more than just mass is approximate lengths, firepower, and armor specifications. For example if we could all agree on a standard (reasonable) amount of firepower, mobility, protection quality, size (L*W*H), in addition to mass I would be more on board. With a general baseline of these qualities we can better define ships.

I would like a universal standard, but the fact of the matter is that no one will get their preferred classifications, and we are all going to either have to make serious compromises or just have a universal standard that some use and some don't.

 

That's an interesting ship you have there. I'm glad you picked up on the two possibilities here. All things being equal I'd say it's a small ship that hauls a lot of cargo. It's a very efficient light hauler.

The thing is, we don't need to haul cargo yet. We may mine lots of resources that need shipping or we may never be able to fill that many containers. Until that question is answered I think it could go either way. Wouldn't you agree?

 

I guess it's a general guideline then. I can live with mine being a sub-category carrier under the general light carrier class.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the weight designations in regards to carrier. I'm kinda siding with AdmiralYuki in that carrier size should be determined by the number of craft held. Everything else looks interesting, though.

 

I would agree with Sandtrooper and Yuki - cargo carrying vessels are usually classified by their payload capacity.


So a freighter may weigh 30,000,000 kg but have 15,000,000 cargo capacity - or even 5,000,000 (maybe its heavily armored reducing cargo capacity).


I do not, however, have any suggestions what scale to use lol so what is there is a awesome start, very good chart!

 

If any of you guys have some numbers for how many small craft carriers should hold or how much cargo freighter classes should carry I'm open to alternatives. There's no reason we can't include it all and let people pick whichever is most applicable.

 

this is a very nice start for giving everyone a general idea of what is what, but I am holding off on actually classifying my designs until more weaponry is added and enabled because I prefer to classify things based on their Firepower, Armor, and Role rather than off of just size.

 

Ya I would make my suggestion to switch to crafts held. The smaller the carrier with more craft storage is a much more efficient strategy than making one that just weighs a lot for "super carrier" status.

 

How many fighters do you guys have on board and what would you call your carrier?

Also since we have magnetic landing gear, what's to stop someone from attaching dozens of fighters to the outside of the hull? Do those count?

 

They should count. If they built a structure with intent to carry other craft then it will be labeled carrier.

If their design follows that they will have a craft stuck EVERYWHERE then so be it. Bad design, but if it holds the 150 craft required to be super carrier then it's labeled as such.

My suggestion on craft count.

<10 <- Pocket Carrier

10 -50 <- Light Carrier

51 - 100 <- Heavy Carrier

101 + <- Super Carrier

 

I would say yes also - actually that would allow for some cool possibilities - now would it be effective or practical? who knows heh

 

But in order to do this we need to first understand the average size of the fighters and small ships. A Carrier that holds 50 Light Fighters could be noticeably smaller than a carrier that holds 50 Heavy Fighters. We should come up with a "hanger capacity value" that is given to small craft. That way, instead of saying as carrier has capacity of 50 small ships, we might say it has a hanger size of 50. This way we can simply say X carrier has Y hanger space, which could carry any combination of ships A, B, and C up the capacity of Y hanger space. Hopefully that made sense. How we decide to translate this is up to the community, but I am partial to 1/2 for light, 1 for medium/standard, and 2 for Heavy or something similar.

 

External hanger capacity should not be part of the 'capacity' unless it is internal. There is nothing to stop people from putting small craft on the outside of the hull, I have actually made a few ships that were designed for that exact purpose. Now if you are talking about having an 'open air' flight deck, like on modern aircraft carriers it would make sense to include the small ship capacity of this deck to the overall hanger capacity of the large ship in question. Possibility adding a note in the ships capacity rating to something like so, Hanger Capacity: I-50, E-20.

 

Here is what I know about aircraft carriers (in the U.S. - sorry rest of the world but I need a nap)

These are wartime numbers. It looks like Midway wins in aircraft, Enterprise in length, and Nimitz or Ford in weight.
Langley was a collier originally
Lexington was a battlecruiser


<table width="1065" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 799pt;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><colgroup> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td width="1065" colspan="11" style="height: 15.0pt; width: 799pt;" class="xl69" height="20">United States Carrier Classes</td></tr><tr style="mso-height-source: userset; height: 30.0pt;"><td style="height: 30.0pt;" height="40"> </td><td>Class</td><td width="81" style="width: 61pt;" class="xl66">Hull Designation</td><td class="xl65">Year</td><td width="64" style="width: 48pt;" class="xl68">Weight in tons</td><td width="64" style="width: 48pt;" class="xl66">Length in meters</td><td class="xl67">Crew</td><td class="xl65">Armament</td><td class="xl65">Aircraft</td><td class="xl65">Elevators</td><td class="xl65">Catapults</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">1</td><td>Langley</td><td>CV-1</td><td class="xl65">1920</td><td class="xl67">12,900</td><td class="xl65">165.2</td><td class="xl67">468</td><td class="xl65">4x50cal; 4x51cal</td><td class="xl65">36</td><td class="xl65">1</td><td class="xl65">1</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">2</td><td>Lexington</td><td>CV-2</td><td class="xl65">1927</td><td class="xl67">37,000</td><td class="xl65">270.7</td><td class="xl67">2,791</td><td class="xl65">4xtwin 203mm; 12xsingle 127mm AA</td><td class="xl65">78</td><td class="xl65">2</td><td class="xl65">1</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">3</td><td>Ranger</td><td>CV-4</td><td class="xl65">1934</td><td class="xl67">14,810</td><td class="xl65">234.4</td><td class="xl67">2,461</td><td class="xl65">8x25cal AA; 40x12.7mm</td><td class="xl65">86</td><td class="xl65">3</td><td class="xl65">3</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">4</td><td>Yorktown</td><td>CV-5</td><td class="xl65">1937</td><td class="xl67">19,800</td><td class="xl65">246.81</td><td class="xl67">2,217</td><td class="xl65">8x38cal; 4x75cal; 24x.50cal</td><td class="xl65">90</td><td class="xl65">3</td><td class="xl65">2</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">5</td><td>Wasp</td><td>CV-7</td><td class="xl65">1940</td><td class="xl67">14,900</td><td class="xl65">225.93</td><td class="xl67">2,167</td><td class="xl65">8x38cal; 16x75cal AA; 24x13mm</td><td class="xl65">100</td><td class="xl65">3</td><td class="xl65">4</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">6</td><td>Essex</td><td>CV-9</td><td class="xl65">1942</td><td class="xl67">34,300</td><td class="xl65">270</td><td class="xl67">3,200</td><td class="xl65">12x38cal; 32-74x40mm Bofors; 55-76x20mm Cannon</td><td class="xl65">100</td><td class="xl65">3</td><td class="xl65">2</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">7</td><td>Midway</td><td>CV-41</td><td class="xl65">1945</td><td class="xl67">45,000</td><td class="xl65">295</td><td class="xl67">4,104</td><td class="xl65">18x54cal; 21xquad 40mm Bofors; 28x20mm Cannon</td><td class="xl65">130</td><td class="xl65">3</td><td class="xl65">2</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">8</td><td>Forrestal</td><td>CV-59</td><td class="xl65">1955</td><td class="xl67">60,000</td><td class="xl65">330</td><td class="xl67">4,378</td><td class="xl65">8x54 cal</td><td class="xl65">90</td><td class="xl65">4</td><td class="xl65">4</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">9</td><td>Kitty Hawk</td><td>CV-63</td><td class="xl65">1961</td><td class="xl67">60,933</td><td class="xl65">326</td><td class="xl67">5,624</td><td class="xl65">24 Sea Sparrows and RIM-116 RAM; 3-4x Phalanx CIWSs</td><td class="xl65">85</td><td class="xl65">4</td><td class="xl65">4</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">10</td><td>Enterprise</td><td>CVN-65</td><td class="xl65">1961</td><td class="xl67">94,781</td><td class="xl65">342</td><td class="xl67">5,828</td><td class="xl65">2xSea Sparrows; 2x20mm Phalanx CIWSs; 2 RAM</td><td class="xl65">90</td><td class="xl65">4</td><td class="xl65">4</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">11</td><td>Nimitz</td><td>CVN-68</td><td class="xl65">1975</td><td class="xl67">100,000</td><td class="xl65">332.8</td><td class="xl67">5,680</td><td class="xl65">16-24x Sea Sparrows; 3-4x Phalanx CIWSs or RAM</td><td class="xl65">90</td><td class="xl65">4</td><td class="xl65">4</td></tr><tr style="height: 15.0pt;"><td align="right" style="height: 15.0pt;" height="20">12</td><td>Gerald R. Ford</td><td>CVN-78</td><td class="xl65">2015</td><td class="xl67">101,600</td><td class="xl65">337</td><td class="xl67">4,297</td><td class="xl65">AAM(2xESSM; 2xRAM); Guns(2xPhalanx; 4x12.7mm)</td><td class="xl65">75-90</td><td class="xl65">3</td><td class="xl65">4</td></tr></tbody></table>
I couldn't get enough info on deck space. Basically it's like this...they find out what works and they stick to it. In game we just build whatever pops in our heads. Everything is apples to oranges so here is what I recommend. We have weights and we have fighter numbers (even if they do seem a little high)

&lt;10 &lt;- Pocket Carrier

10 -50 &lt;- Light Carrier

51 - 100 &lt;- Heavy Carrier

101 + &lt;- Super Carrier

If we can get bay sizes also then we can list all three systems and go by either the most permissive measurement or the most limiting measurement based on what seems right. That's everything I've got. Now I have to figure out how to build something nasty to break your ships

 

Well, the problem is, my carrier can hold 300 small fighters and 4-6 frigates (using the red in-game default cruiser as the cruiser size) or 500ish dedicated small fighters...I'm not sure what this entails, to be honest, but I don't want to break the game.

 

I'd like to see that. In fact I'd like to see it full of fighters. That has got to be the size of a canyon