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Update 1.180.6 Minor - Beta Improvements

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by flexx, May 25, 2017.

  1. flexx SE Asst. Producer Developer

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    Hello, Engineers! Once again, we’ve got a minor update for you today with more crash fixes and a couple of improvements as the team battles with the last few remaining issues in the next major update.
    This particular upcoming major update has many changes to the code so it also requires a huge amount of additional testing which of course adds to production time. The majority of our programmers and testers are working on this which is why the recent minor updates have only contained a small amount of improvements. The image shown here is a good example of what searching for and trying to reproduce a crash in the game can look like. But we are expecting significant increases in performance from these changes so it’s still definitely something you can look forward to and we appreciate your patience with this.

    Next Tuesday we will be streaming at 8PM CEST on the Keen Community Network over on Twitch. This stream with Marek will be focusing on the vision for Space Engineers as well as giving a more detailed update on the progress of performance improvements.



    Fixes:
    - fixed Campaign crashes
    - fixed MyProgrammableBlock crash
    - fixed welder radius
    - fixed missing rotation cube arrows
    - replaced NaN value on HUD for 0.0
     
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  2. PoeticInjustice

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  3. Anunnaki Nibiru

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    I can't wait till major update.

    I think, this game is not for "action arcade" players (those are playing graphically and in MP far mor better arcade games), but for other two kinds of players:
    a) builders (in creative mode, just fun from building)
    b) survivalists (in realistic scenario, playing to survive), in SP or MP (I personally preffer MP on huge PvE servers)

    For builders (creative mode):
    Can you enhance building options, like posibbility to do following:
    1) Cut and paste this way:
    a) selecting block/blocks
    b) by pressing hot key removing selected block/blocks from grid and putting it to clipboard (to CTRL-C)
    2) option to "copy" all "terminal" settings from one block to another block (by looking on source block, pressing one hotkey, looking on target block, pressing another hotkey)!
    3) Allow us to arrange terminal blocks in "terminal console" to "tree" structure, via something like "container groups".
    4) Visual help: some king of "filer" to semi-transparently color selected type of blocks on the grid. For example, you should see whole grid semi-transparent, and "all heavy armor blocks" colored solid RED. So you can easily see mistakes and etc.
    5) Option to sort terminal blocks in terminal console by distance from player. So if you need to change something on doors right beside you, those should be first in list.

    For survivalists:
    Can you enhance survival part of the game?
    1) atmospheric pressure
    2) temperature (changing during day/nigh on the planet)
    3) radiation (waves of solar radiation from star, some areas with higher rads on planets)
    4) eating (food processing/printing, food producing block, maybe later growing/hunting/gathering/cooking)
    5) drinking (clean water processing)
    6) CO2 (clean AIR processing)
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
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  4. gimmilfactory

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  5. KingdomBragg

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    Thanks all :D
     
  6. Commander Rotal

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    Two observations to the teaser.
    1.) If you're not 110 percent sure a feature will make it into the game, don't tease it in an update video.
    2.) We have more than enough power production blocks. You are wasting time and resources on redundant blocks while the game is missing essential ones like a halfblock slab.
     
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  7. DigitalStone

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    I still don't get what this engine would be doing so massively different.
    One can switch it between H2 and ice?... Isn't H2 within ice?
    What's going on?
     
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  8. gothosan

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    I guess in the case where you have extra hydrogen and low ice you may want to conserve ice for oxygen production while still having power.
    Also in emergency cases where batteries, solar and reactors are off you could use this.
    I can't wait to fit one on my heavy carrier :D
     
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  9. Darkthought

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    I want that generator so very much.

    One quick thought though, the moving pistons and spinning fans implies hydrogen combustion. It should require piped-in air (oxygen) to function in Hydrogen mode, or at least be within an atmosphere.

    I'll also suggest adding a smaller hydrogen tank for small ships. That big thing is too big. :)
     
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  10. Xellon

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    It will likely produce much less power in Ice mode because it uses part of it's output to turn the Ice into Water and split that up int H2 and O2 before using the H2 to produce power.


    Also, I have to disagree with Commander Rotal on the second point. We have exactly two kinds of power production blocks, being Nuclear Reactors and and Solar Panels. Batterys only output power that has been produced before by some other means.
    Adding more Power Blocks to the game gives us additional options for powering grids, and depending on the output, Ice/H2 consumption and build cost the Hydrogen PowerGen might be a viable option for certain situations.
    Also, I wouldn't call the halfblock slab essential, really. It's surely missing, but it's not a gamebreaker.
     
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  11. odizzido

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    Ah man rotal, I am sorry but I disagree with you again :( If anything I would say that they should just throw the magic generators into the game right now and see how they play. If they're good, keep them. If they're bad remove them. You can never really know how something will play until you try it so they should just jump right in. Maybe in a test branch or something if people can't handle blocks being removed from the main game.

    Also isn't the blast wall(125 plate blocks) kinda like a half block? I actually don't know what you mean by that.


    One more thing I just thought of....maybe we should call ice hydrocarbons now. Either that, or we should call the new generator the Fairy Generator because it runs on magic dust. I'd be happy with either.

    edit-----------
    You could get oxygen from feldspar it seems.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldspar

    Also silicon. So ice would be hydrocarbons and give hydrogen and carbon(to make steel, BTW) and silicon becomes feldspar which gives silicon and oxygen. Feldspar also contains aluminium if you guys were interested in making lighter blocks in the future.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
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  12. Lord Wraith

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    intresting but let wait and see if it comes in, and if it does will it break the game and make it unplayable again (see pasted updates)
     
  13. Phoenix84

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    I completely disagree with all that.

    1) The developers tease features to see how the community will react. If there's overwhelming support for it, they are likely to add it. If there's overwhelming kickback, they might drop it.
    It's part of how EA works. However in this particular case, I think xocliw was saying the design isn't finalized, not that the block itself isn't.

    Preface for 2: I know you don't give two hoots about survival, and that's fine. However a significant portion of the player base does.
    2) We have 2 power production blocks: Reactor and solar panel. Batteries don't count, since they must be charged by one of the previous two. We know there's a survival revamp coming, so this is directly related to that. We have multiple power generation methods IRL, why not in the game? Each have their pros and cons, it's part of survival balance.
    Keep in mind this isn't just a single block we're getting, it's part of a revamp of an entire gameplay system.
    This is far better to do early. New decoration/armor blocks are trivial (aside from modeling), and can easily be added to the game post-release without breaking changes.
    Changing survival after release is bad, and will break things.
     
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  14. Anunnaki Nibiru

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    I can't wait till major update.

    I think, this game is not for "action arcade" players (those are playing graphically and in MP far mor better arcade games), but for other two kinds of players:
    a) builders (in creative mode, just fun from building)
    b) survivalists (in realistic scenario, playing to survive), in SP or MP (I personally preffer MP on huge PvE servers)

    For builders (creative mode):
    Can you enhance building options, like posibbility to do following:
    1) Cut and paste this way:
    a) selecting block/blocks
    b) by pressing hot key removing selected block/blocks from grid and putting it to clipboard (to CTRL-C)
    2) option to "copy" all "terminal" settings from one block to another block (by looking on source block, pressing one hotkey, looking on target block, pressing another hotkey)!
    3) Allow us to arrange terminal blocks in "terminal console" to "tree" structure, via something like "container groups".
    4) Visual help: some king of "filer" to semi-transparently color selected type of blocks on the grid. For example, you should see whole grid semi-transparent, and "all heavy armor blocks" colored solid RED. So you can easily see mistakes and etc.
    5) Option to sort terminal blocks in terminal console by distance from player. So if you need to change something on doors right beside you, those should be first in list.

    For survivalists:
    Can you enhance survival part of the game?
    1) atmospheric pressure
    2) temperature (changing during day/nigh on the planet)
    3) radiation (waves of solar radiation from star, some areas with higher rads on planets)
    4) eating (food processing/printing, food producing block, maybe later growing/hunting/gathering/cooking)
    5) drinking (clean water processing)
    6) CO2 (clean AIR processing)
     
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  15. Legas

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    H2 fuel generator is meaningless....

    Please add another type of fuel, otherwise it's not a new source of power but instead just a reskinned battery.
     
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  16. Commander Rotal

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    Batteries start with 30 percent charge. It's not going to keep you going forever but in an emergency it's better than nothing to power a little lifeboat. Specially in Survival.

    Meanwhile you will never get rid of all the Uranium in your cargo bays unless you run an iso-ton of uber-mod blocks. Look, i'm usually the last person to decry more options but we already have three and now they're working on at least two more if we take Xocliw at face value and the Wind Chimes really are wind-powered power generators. There's options, and then there's overkill.

    I would, in addition to a good few Armor Ramp connection pieces that're still missing. SE is, before all, a block building game. Getting shapes right is what i'd call essential to that, and especially for the Large Grid's rather huge blocks it is important to get that fine detailling right.


    That's fine, i'm used to it :D

    Never, ever remove something from a game that you've previously given to the player. Test it internally, sure, that's what the internal testing is there for.

    Most SE-related Chats light up like christmas trees if you say the L-word, so my oppinion's got that going for it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Lurch84

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    I just don't get why it's internal combustion and not a fuel cell design. Fuel cells are more efficient if I remember right and more in-keeping with the future current tech thing... I do like the actual switch you can physically flip, nice touch that, immersion and all.

    If I may make a suggestion, a option on oxygen generators to only produce O2, so we don't run out of ice for O2, as hydrogen production eats ludicrous amounts of ice at the moment imo (can be a problem early on in a space start if RNG hates you) (Obviously there may be other things planned to address this that we're not aware of).

    At the risk of sounding an idiot, what does this mean?
    - replaced NaN value on HUD for 0.0
     
  18. R41D3R

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    Im liking the small and large generators. Just nevermind the breach in laws of thermodynamics of using burn product as a fuel :p

    Im looking forward to parachutes and MP optimizations the most though
     
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  19. Timotei~

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    How would it be possible to produce power from ice? Is there some real life concepts being studied. Would it be like some kind of fusion reaction within the generator?
    I mean if you just invent magic. Then this game will go from scifi-ish to pure fantasy. I tough this game was suppose to be realistic. I want explanations please.
     
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  20. Hekutoru

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    1000% agree!! This game IS a block building game, if you have power problems, deal with them, use your ingenuity and don't ask the developers to create a solution for it.

    Don't get me wrong, I still love and enjoy this game, but feels to me like the engineering part of it is fading away from the picture...
     
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  21. Commander Rotal

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    And if there's no overwhelming support for it they'll either implement it anyway (looking at you, Lense Flares, Scratches and probably a dozen other examples i'm too lazy to think of right now) OR they don't and they wasted a good chunk of development time, especially for the art department which we know to be rather on the small side. Imagine the community turned into a flock of Rotals and everyone said "NO ICE GENERATOR MAH IMMERSION!".

    [​IMG]

    Suddenly they're standing there with that block nobody wants. The correct course of action for what you say is to ASK players first instead of wildly developing into the blue and hope to Clang they don't hate it.

    Possible but certainly not how the wording comes across.


    Not technically true; i care enough to call it a mistake when nobody is listening. And it's not like i've never played it.

    Technically they still generate power when you place them because they start with 30 percent charge, unless they change that. As a stepping stone for early Survival that works fairly well until you get a Reactor or Solar Panel started.

    My problem with that is: it's not wrong per se but if the old blocks have balance problems, than that's a balancing problem, not one that should waste valuable art department time while we don't even have a Slab or Table yet. I like options. I wish there were more options for everything, but i can't even choose between two tables yet because i don't even have ONE table, unless i use mods, and if i was a little more of an asshole than i am i'd probably just tell people who want more Survival Options to use mods instead, with a big fat smug Kappa on the end of the sentence.
    Balance-wise, what IS the problem with Reactors and Solar Panels that necessitates additional blocks? Every time i play Survival i do one, maaaaybe two Uranium raids and i'm done for a couple of weeks. The answer to that isn't "add more Reactor types", the answer is "make Uranium less efficient".

    Considering the state they slapped the "Beta"-label onto it (and the release of the Paid Ladder DLC) i will have to see them add decoration blocks after release to believe it.
     
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  22. odizzido

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    Ohhh I understand why you want them now, that picture made it very clear, thank you :)
     
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  23. Phoenix84

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    You are making judgements based on adding one block to the game as it is now.
    That's not a fair comparison, as everything in survival could be changing (they said 'revamp').
    You can only compare to how the new block will fit in with the game as a whole, which we don't know yet.

    EDIT:
    Ok, fair point.

    The graphics options for example were added without notice, which I don't agree with. Especially since I couldn't turn them off.
    How things are presented to us seems to depend on who makes the change, or if it requires design work.
    New blocks typically have to go through game designers, however additional graphics options don't necessarily need to. (not that I agree with that).

    Apologies, I didn't think you did.

    They come with power, they don't generate it (unless you are getting very technical on the definition of 'generate'). For gameplay, I don't count them as generating.

    As I said, they haven't told us, but perhaps they did go over the balance of the game, and decided that part of the balance requires some new blocks. Parachutes are one, hydrogen power generator is another. We don't have all the information.

    I have no doubt they'll add paid DLC post-release, that's the direction game developers have gone historically to continue the revenue stream. Question is whether those deco blocks would be paid or not (I hope not).
    The would have to wait until after, as if they did it before players would revolt.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  24. Commander Rotal

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    Steampower perhaps?
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, the OTHER big problem i have with the way @Xocliw does his teasers is exactly that missing context so i guess you're preaching to the choir on that point.
    Besides, i doubt Reactors and Solar Panels are going to stop producing power after the revamp.
     
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  25. Anunnaki Nibiru

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    I think power system needs to be tweaked:
    1) added wind turbine for planets/moons with atmosphere
    2) removed small uranium reactors, and those existing reactors should be bigger and far mor heavier, so those should be used only on stations and maybe very big ships, which are not able to fly in planets gravity.
    3) hydrogen thrusters should be far more powerfull and weight less, and should use both hydrogen and oxygen.
    4) there should be new type of very light thrusters: RCS, those should use oxygen or hydrogen (you should able to select which one), but with much lower thrust than hydrogen thrusters, because RCS are just "vents".
    5) ION thrusters should be far much heavier. Should be maybe 30-100x less powerfull than hydrogen (per 1kg of weight), less or the same thrust as RCS!!!
    6) There should be 1x1x1 block of batteries and also the same size oxygen and hydrogen tanks, because "size" does not matter, stored capacity/volume is always "per kg" and even biggest batteries are made from the same small battery units). This way we can utilize any empty space on the ship as fuel/electricity storage.
    8) that new power generator is good thing, but it should use both, hydrogen and oxygen too, like hydrogen thrusters
    9) maybe alternative of atmospheric thrusters consuming O2 and HYD should be also added.

    That means you need to think like in reality, which king of "power" system you will use on which ship. Ship with nuclear reactor and plenty of batteries and ION thrusters would never have enough power to get from surface to space. You need OXYGEN+HYDROGEN tanks and RCS+Hydrogen thrusters to fly to get from surface to space.
    But, maybe also OXY+HYDROGEN tanks + POWER GENERATOR + no batteries and electric atmospherics thrusters should be light enough to get to the space.

    Batteries and ION thrusters should be used only in space. You can have infinite constant energy from solar panels, so those ships can accelerate/decelerate indefinitely, so can accelerate to huge speeds in time. Excessive weight is therefore no problem there. But, because thrust/weight ratio is very bad, those should not able to "fight gravity", event not at the moon!

    Currently, there is no point to waste time for specialized ships, if you can put "everything" on GIANT ALL USE CASES SHIP with EVERYTHING on it ... and fly everywhere from surface-space-surface ....[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
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  26. odizzido

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    You can turn ice into oxygen and hydrogen
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis#Electrolysis_of_water

    You can burn hydrogen for energy, which you do in hydrogen engines or in various rockets
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V#S-II_second_stage

    The problem with the generator using ice is that it could never gain energy because it has to create the fuel it's burning which takes more energy than it generates.
     
  27. Phoenix84

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    Maybe? Anything is possible at this point. They're adding this block for a reason. I agree, if nothing else changed, it would be useless.
    However you did mentioned uranium before, maybe uranium is OP and won't be available early game? It kind of makes sense. Why would you use this new generator if you can just get a small stockpile of U and be set for life? I guess my point is something else big must change for this block to have any use.
    The windmill thing is also useful at night, though I don't know why I would use solar panels over that in the daytime, unless that windmill won't work in the day. We don't know that yet either.
    They said a revamp, so it could be small, or it could be massive overhaul. I'm leaning towards massive.

    Sorry, I also quoted more of your stuff as an edited post above.
     
  28. Lord_Anubis 2

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    Sorry...wait...this is just a Minor Update...why so much people hyping. Is it really necessary to produce a 3:38 m video to say "yo guys we have fixed some shit out of this game and messing around with a 8V experimental Hydrogen Motor, but we don't implemement any Features by the tim the next Major Update will released".... This Minor Update are fucking bug fixes....only bugfixes... I can't still build airtight Shuttles with small grids. And when I say my opinion, then you are called Hater, but no one can see that I play the game at 5700 h from the beginning and I know exactly what a space game is the best to feel you ARE in Space. And I deal with the Science of Space but nobody is interessted in. Its Game okay. You will build an Have fun. But i if it is a game in Space, then it has to teach how you try to survival in Space and a 8v Experimental Hydrogen Motor doesn't help in nay kind. What about the Fusion Reaktor, Plasma Jet engines they are developed right now. Are those things they could not exist in 2077 but they are almost invented??? How about a Radar. Every Ship has a Radar, not only an Antenna. Oh and what about our pistol that was teaserd. Or did I forget, that it is sooooo Difficult to make hold a Ragdoll a pistol in right position, cause the with this Model it is more difficult to make any Animations correctly? Tim for example said a A very unique sentence to Medieval Engineers that fits Space Engineers as well, because they have not inserted a bow:" We don't implement it cause with the Character Model it was easier to create a Crossbow cause of the animations. Okay, this is it. Is it so that Keen gives up on such difficult animations, cause they are to diffcult? you grow with your tasks. An it is no Wonder that we dont have a Tribute to Leonard Nimoy with the Vulcan greet, cause it is to difficult to animate it, but You KEEN, Invented your difficult Ragdoll Model and now DEAL WITH IT.

    I know that I will get any Kind of Shitstorm with this post, but it is my Opinion and if somebody refuses this, than he is not better then Erdogan. And I Think I may have this Opinion, cause I play THIS GAME from the Beginning. I bought this game and I love it and It annoys me that so much potential is wasted. Space Engineers could be soooooo MUCH more!!!!

    Have great and Nice Day

    your Sincerely

    Lord_Anubis
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAm7AoAZB7pupKLfIjArlCw
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
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  29. tchubel

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    NaN stands for not a number. A lot of programming languages give it as an output when you ask for the numerical value of a string of characters or do something like divide by zero. I'm not sure why the HUD was ever reporting NaN as a value for anything.
     
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  30. kcjunkbox

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    (When you read this post, imagine me yelling and screaming and jumping up and down)

    Please, please, please DON"T make it run on ice!!! That is completely stupid!!! You are completely throwing physics out the window!

    1. It costs energy to melt ice into water
    2. It costs energy to split water into Oxygen and Hydrogen
    3. It will produce less energy to combust (or even recombine with a fuel cell) Oxygen and Hydrogen then it took to perform steps 1 and 2.

    You will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER get more energy from step 3 than you consume in steps 1 and 2 above when you recombine Oxygen and Hydrogen so your Hydrogen combustion block would simply be a energy consumer in ICE mode. You won't even get more energy from step 3 if you only had to perform step 2. You will ALWAYS consume more energy in steps 1 and 2 than you will ever get from step 3.

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE remove the ice option. I love the switch and all that is cool, but it CANNOT run on ice and still produce energy. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.

    You guys very smartly build in the 20% loss to charging batteries. Now why would you do the exact opposite for hydrogen? Seperating and storing hydrogen in a tank is just like storing energy in a battery. It costs more to put in it then you will ever get out of it BUT it is a convenient storage method and you will never get more energy out of it then you put into it to seperate the hydrogen in the first place. Never, Never, Never!
     
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