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what is the time period for medieval engineers? i'm thinking 12th

Discussion in 'General' started by ibisgrunk, May 11, 2017.

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  1. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    what is the age period for which Medieval Engineers generally is intended? all dates general... i already love the guy that is going to post the smack down timeline at me!

    "Medieval" implies 400 a.d. to 1499 a.d. like the middle ages?

    my logic: crossbow makes it at the earliest 10th century, and no gunpowder means before 13th century. no bows pushes that time gap to late 12th century.

    Gunpowder rose to more use starting 13th century and the matchlock pistol around 14th century. pre-gunpowder makes this before 13th century? sound logical? no matter what this game is not a gunpowder thing... and we can trace gunpowder's use in europe and the rise of the cannon for siege.

    [yes insert the idea of a gunpowder game element, needing components, smelting large cannons? it would be a different game or would it, and modders go for it!]

    the crossbow is a weird thing because of how different its model has changed over time compared to lets say the history of the bow. the crossbow model for which we use in ME "feels" like a one-person-easy-repeating-crossbow (we don't have to put the crossbow on our foot and hand crank it between shots which i think makes it for a much later model crossbow imho)? regardless of the crossbow model its the fact there are NO BOWS that is more time interesting imho. and the bow was pretty much dead by the late 12th century, all dates broadly used here. i could argue we are using a too late model crossbow for the era that ME sit in....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_engineering

    My dude was born in the year 1273 a.d. is now in my head... i just need that clarification from y'all!
     
  2. Köbi 2 Apprentice Engineer

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    Well your dude is born in the 13th century. But I think you are about right. (That is the nice thing about imagination and fiction, he can be whatever you want him to). Maybe it could be even a little later. Because for example the "large round tile roof" has an destinct stile, that I would put in between 1450-1700, but not earlier.

    It would help, if we knew when water was invented in the real world. And horses and stuff. Also my dude just did a sex-change so it could be today.

    But otherwise if you only build caves, you could have a stone age dude. Or a roman or viking.

    I will put my dude later as yours. Maybe born in 1407 or in the 1420s. (So he will be death when the columbus thing happens. Or the reformations and things.) But still has that engineering renaissance glimps. Also he lives in an area where gunpowder has not reached yet.
     
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  3. tmike Apprentice Engineer

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    Some things make it kind of vage, stone tools, where not used much after the bronze age, Though the romans useed stone and even bone tools for mineing. the romans also had cross bows, And we dont know what else there going to add, I am hopeing for more bows, and maybe some throwing spears. to let us hunt before Reseraching metal Hardening. that being said I wouldnt object to adding Gun powder at least.
     
  4. wesleybruce Trainee Engineer

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    3000 AD some of the space engineers guys crash landed and had to re-invent the wheel. lol.
     
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  5. RayvenQ Moderator

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    I remember reading on one of the early Blog posts about medieval engineers that the timeframe of the game was, 5th to 15th century. I took that to mean that it wasn't specifically set at a date between those two times, but more using things that existed between those times as inspiration for gameplay things, features, items and elements, so you would get things present in the game side by side somewhat anachronistically.

    For me personally, while I wouldn't mind things like matchlock weapons as a personal weapon, much like the crossbow currently is, I personally would prefer no larger, powerful gunpowder weapons (simply from a gameplay experience perspective where things take a while to build, they should take a while to destroy too), but instead stick with the current siege weapons, as they can destroy stuff, but it takes a fair bit of effort to not only build them, but to maintain a siege ingame, with damage being more spread out and not just a few hits destroys everything. In my personal opinion, large scale gunpowder weapons would alter the balance of play too much.

    As for crossbows, and I must point out this is my own personal thoughts, it's possible in the game instead of bows because it was much easier and quicker to put it in the game as the ranged weapon than bow mechanics would be, especially in terms of minimal animation needed vs needing to do quite a bit of work for bows, especially when trying to implement draw and release mechanics based on when the player released the attack key. Thats my own interpretation on why we have crossbows rather than bows.

    As for stone tools and now the varying types of metal tools, I think personally thats just a gameplay element to give players a sense of progression and an easy way to get some starting equipment gameplay wise.
     
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  6. DragonDoom Trainee Engineer

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    Considering a find I made the other day.... you may very well be right...
     
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  7. TheBedla Trainee Engineer

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    Well, even if we disregard the easter egg and the fact that the planet looks nothing like Earth, there is one item that makes placing ME in any historic era impossible - that is the Pumpkin. This is a New World plant, not a European one, and as such was not available in the Middle Ages (practically "by definition", as certain definitions of the Middle Ages put the end date to the discovery of the Americas).

    Other than that, it could be anywhen. Crossbows were used since 12th century, but we cannot build gothic arches which were also being used from that period... so I like to build more early- and mid-medieval looking structures than late-medieval buildings.
     
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  8. scouterdude Trainee Engineer

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    There does seem to be quite a mash-up of, basically, pre-technology stuff. (yeah, we'd have to better define what technology means, but you get the idea.) Perhaps it's easier just to look at it as 2 sides of the Keen coin. SE - much technology, with heavy startup needs, flying from place to place. ME - no tech, start chopping trees and work up from there, walking where you need to go. Either way, at it's heart it's a sandbox game, e.g. building stuff to gather more stuff to build bigger stuff. What kind of stuff do you like better, stone castles or metallic space stations? Solar powered batteries or solar powered wheat? I guess the biggest challenge for the devs are the appropriate physics for the environment. Science works everywhere, even if the player/engineer don't understand it.
     
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  9. Pigeon Trainee Engineer

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    If I remember I heard it was meant to be based around 9-15th century...

    It not like stone walls went of fashion right away with cannons they did make star forts after all. Also reality sortive has to be bent a bit or you can argue the climate of the planet, the lack of water, having just deer and random barb. dudes with random broken swords trying to shank you ever 10 minutes. Honestly I just wait for barbarians to get easy iron similar to dwarf fortress and goblinite.
     
  10. tmike Apprentice Engineer

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    Also keep in mind the Romans had cross bows, They where also in use in Asia and the middle east, I think they where even employed against Alexander the great in India.
     
  11. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    Horses. Huge clue.
    There are no beasts of burden, so its obviously set in an advanced pre ice age civilization from earlier than 25,000 B.C. because there is no standing arrangement between the humans and beasts for the domestication policy which enabled the terrestrial animals to overcome the crab people. Learn your history folks!
     
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  12. Lupinemaxx Trainee Engineer

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    Fun question. You could say that it's not at all locked into a limited era considering a survival game starts you off in the Mesolithic age. 10,000 year old Celts would envy your prowess breezing to and through he Bronze and Iron ages. Building blocks allow anything from (almost) Meso/Neolithic huts to Roman era to Gothic to (almost) Renaissance structures. Hell, in my games, I tend to make my first proper house with a Colonial style blueprint. As far as the world goes, it's certainly not Earth (not yet, anyway). So that's open to unlimited interpretation based on whatever you could imagine. I did like the one suggestion that ME avitars are SE refugee avitars stuck on some alien rock without oodles future of tech. My first impression when I started 4 months ago was Dayum! This is Skyrim! Half expected to eventually wander into Falkreath or see Whiterun appear in the horizon.
     
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  13. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    We are spanning over a huge time, as the game starts with being in stone age and you have to 'discover' various metal processing techniques one after the other, meaning you wander through bronze age, iron age and final steel age (while I doubt this is historical when you think of the appropriate melting devices for pure steel requiring high temperatures being located somewhere in 18th century - but I am already glad they did not introduce Aluminium this way :D)...
    --- Automerge ---
    Actually the looks of armour on the warrior would tell the time he is in*, but in absence of vanilla armour and relying on timeless leather aprons and skull caps, it's impossible to say something about the medieval war fashion localization in time...

    *like the helmet type in my portrait picture is a noseguard type becoming obsolete in mid 12th century, at least for knights who went á la mode.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_helmet
     
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  14. Lupinemaxx Trainee Engineer

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    Two things seem to stand the test of time historically.....leather. You've seem to have done serious homework so you know chain mail was wicked difficult and time consuming to make and full on plate armor was rare even among the 'knights'. The other is the conical cap or conical helmet.....found in celtic sites from Turkey to the north shores of Scotland. Poor bastards, rich and poor, ordered off to war.....but had to pay for their own armor.
     
  15. MorshuArtsInc Apprentice Engineer

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    "The middle ages" is a very vague definition. As a starting point, one could set the decline of the Roman Empire. But this could either be the fall of the Western Roman empire in 476 (Odoaker dethrones Romulus Augustulus), or the Eastern Roman Empire in 1453 (the Seljuks capture Constantinople). The latter is used as a popular ending point by several historicians.
    Here's a list of commonly used ending dates:
    • Sometime during the 14th century: Rise of humanism in Italy. They were also the first ones to use the term "medium aevum" ( therefore: "medi-aeval"), describing that "nasty, uncultured" time between Roman antiquity and their "new age", the "renaissance", which means rebirth, in this case the rebirth of the values and fine arts of the Ancient Romans and Greeks.
    • 1307: Decline of the Knights Templar, one of the last remnants of the crusades.
    • 1330-ish (+/- 5 years): First known use of gunpowder in Europe.
    • 1419-1434: The Hussite Wars in Bohemia, today's Czech Republic.
    • around 1440 - 1450: Johannes Gensfleisch, a.k.a. Gutenberg, invents the movable type printing.
    • 1452-1519: Life time of Leonardo da Vinci.
    • 1453: The aforementioned fall of Constantinople.
    • 1492: End of the Reconquista in Spain.
    • also 1492: Columbus "discovers" America, the most commonly used ending point.
    • 1517: Martin Luther publishes his "Ninety-five Theses" and initiates the reformation in the German countries.
    • 1519: Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I, known as the "Last Knight", but also as the "First Cannoneer", dies.
    • 1532-1539: Henry VIII of England introduces reforms that lead to the establishment of the Church of England.
    There are several more, of course, those are just the ones I could think of right now. Feel free to add some more.
    The Bavarian ministry of culture and education, by the way, has defined the middle ages as beginning at 00:00:00 on January 1st, 500 A.D., and ending at 23:59:59 on December 31st, 1500 A.D.
    Apparently, the people on New Year's Eve in 500 and 1500 were like "10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2....1... HAPPY NEW ERA!"

    These dates, however, only apply to Europe. In most other cultures, there was no thing as "the middle ages". Even in Europe, there are different opinions on this topic, as for the Italians, renaissance started as early as the 1300s, while in Britain, it took some 200 years longer, mostly because of its kind of isolated position.

    How does this affect Medieval Engineers?

    Uh.... I guess MedEng is all of that. I personally play it like late middle ages to early renaissance, like 1390 to 1515, I guess. Altough you could also perfectly build Roman forts with the given blocks.
     
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  16. tmike Apprentice Engineer

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    I tend to true to do more of a dark age or early middle ages, I do how ever use the gave me the thatched roof peaces to build a Celtic round house.
     
  17. Lupinemaxx Trainee Engineer

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    @MorshuArtsInc: That's the beauty of the game, isn't it? The player is offered to choice to allow imagination to place themselves in any historical possibility with no limitations or boundaries. The title is certainly more of a vague reference point then a guideline. Spot on with your history and truth: your list of dates could be added to, almost ad infinitum.
     
  18. torgo Apprentice Engineer

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    That also explains the lack of water. It's all frozen! Atlantean Engineers Confirmed!
     
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  19. DragonDoom Trainee Engineer

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    We're doomed!
     
  20. MaxTheBuilder Trainee Engineer

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    Or the gods had another planet and took a hand full of people and while sleeping moved them to this new planet and watched them as they evolved in their new home as they tackled problems of survival.

    This is what goes on when the Gods don’t have cable TV, they mess with mankind….


    P.S. This was a nice thread to read, very educational, you mortals are doing well.
     
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  21. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    Does Update 0.6.3 advance the estimated time period with the new plank and log walls?
     
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  22. MorshuArtsInc Apprentice Engineer

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    Ummmm... I'd say it rather expands the scene to the east and to the north.
     
  23. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    This, or the estimated time period is getting expanded to the past. Building houses from mostly unhewn logs is a rather crude technique. Log homes are typical for borderland settlements in northern hemisphere, of temporary character, set up by pioneers or woodworkers who need a shelter and don't want to spend too much time and effort on detail work on the logs (like sawing into planks)*.
    I think the white plastered wooden walls we have since start of the game are culturally more advanced.

    *had a revival in the pioneer days of America.
     
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  24. MorshuArtsInc Apprentice Engineer

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    Not only pioneer homes, but also pioneer churches for the recently christianized heathens!
    The new plank walls are splendid for Nordic stave churches, for example (a bit weird considering the vikings did not have saws, yet they were very proficient axe wielders).

    Some carved wooden pillars would make them even better, don't you think? *nudge nudge Keen nudge nudge
    Wolfgar7474 nudge nudge*
     
  25. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    this thread has to accommodate that ME is not historically accurate, but a general appreciation to that era... having said that i want to talk construction history and continue this discussion permanently! the pumpkins thing being proof we have to take the fun with it all... this is why i love people that play ME! lets get historical...

    further research i will do on the following: (all focused on EU in middle ages)

    i found this and honestly have never heard this term ever, can anyone chime in on this ----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_of_the_12th_century, which has:
    • The earliest written record of a windmill is from Yorkshire, England, dated 1185.
    • Paper manufacture began in Spain around 1100, and from there it spread to France and Italy during the 12th century.
    • The magnetic compass aided navigation, attested in Europe in the late 12th century.
    • The astrolabe returned to Europe via Islamic Spain.
    • The West's oldest known depiction of a stern-mounted rudder can be found on church carvings dating to around 1180.

    history of construction (motivated by above posts from you all) > "... Most buildings in Northern Europe were constructed of timber until c. 1000 AD. In Southern Europe adobe remained predominant. Brick continued to be manufactured in Italy throughout the period 600–1000 AD but elsewhere the craft of brick-making had largely disappeared and with it the methods for burning tiles. Roofs were largely thatched. Houses were small and gathered around a large communal hall. Monasticism spread more sophisticated building techniques. ..." [We Need Religious Architecture imho, ME for me is christian europe 1270ad and its all about cathedrals really... we need to build the heck out of monasteries, chapels, et al.]

    brick? thinking of mud and straw, in essence the game can handle anything in past history but not future --- and here is why this thread is cool -- anything pushing let's say late 13th century EU technological means can be dismissed [proof of dismal can be found here] >>> "...Brick architecture became prevalent in the 12th century, still within the Romanesque architecture period. Wooden architecture had long dominated in northern Germany but was inadequate for the construction of monumental structures. Throughout the area of Brick Gothic, half-timbered architecture remained typical for smaller buildings, especially in rural areas, well into modern times. ..." and "As the use of baked red brick arrived in Northern Europe in the 12th century, the oldest such buildings are classified as the Brick Romanesque. In the 16th century, Brick Gothic was superseded by Brick Renaissance architecture."

    also, and pulling in beyond construction:

    history of paper (starting thinking about the scroll making) (i learned that 12th century is the rise of the University which makes me think of tech progression in Civilization games) > "By the 11th century, papermaking was brought to medieval Europe, where it was refined with the earliest known paper millsutilizing waterwheels. Later Western improvements to the papermaking process came in the 19th century with the invention of wood-based papers."
     
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  26. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    From what I have found the 12th is when things begin coming out of the dark, possibly due in part to monks from France, had not heard of the 12th Renaissance, religious doctrine is still the rule, though its my preferred ME period of comparison. Here we also start finding written music. Music of the medieval period does not exist in writing until around the 12th (not lyrics/hymn but melody). The earliest historical music I could find was from around 1100, but most everything else appears over 100 years later, and even that comes from mostly a single manuscript. Shocking religion was benefactor of these records, indeed. When you have paper and standard methods of record; that's a good start. Too bad about all the plague and inquisitions lurking just ahead, probably set things back a wee bit.
     
  27. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    It's not been mentioned here yet, but a BIG influence turned into progress comes from Roman, especially East-Roman or Byzantine knowledge coming back to Europe in two ways:
    (1) Jewish scholars taking over the heritage into Islamic societies and from there back to Europe. At that time they were esteemed by Muslim rulers and held important positions in courts. Totally different from their treatment in Christian medieval societies, where a Crusade usually started with the mob slaughtering Jews at local ghettos before going for the Holy Land.
    (2) Byzantines fleeing from Muslim conquest and bringing with them their cultural advances to Europe.
    That is very apparent in fields of Medicine and the establishment of universities, the progression of some key technologies.
     
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  28. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    Very nice. One can almost see the ideas spread on a map if you look it up, coincides with the dates of Byzantium furthest reach into Europe, which is significant, as well as the sacking of Constantinople in early 1200's. Perfect storm for the spread of ideas attributed to this period. I wonder how much architectural knowledge came back, there seems to have been a shift in building style by Monks from the Burgandy region around this time, may to have to take a look and make some comparisons.
    --- Automerge ---
    Confirmedish, there was a couple of hundred years where east and west commonly exchanged ideas. Take a look at Périgueux Cathedral in France and note the architecture. It was consecrated in 1047. Indicative of the span of time and influence Constantinople had, probably where we get Romanesque architecture and the crossbow.
    Wikipedia says crossbow is invented in Europe around the same time as China, which is wrong. Greeks got it from the east, same for Romans in silk. Why do historians act like boats are something new, rudders my arse!
    :)
     
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  29. Lupinemaxx Trainee Engineer

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    I don't like to limit ME to Medieval the era. I'm hoping for some new blocks and tools. In particular, large rounded clay (mud maybe?) walls and domed thatch roofing like at Cosmeston village in England. While Cosmeston is primarily Saxon in nature and predates classical the medieval age, the game affords it's reproduction fairly well sans some building blocks. In one documentary, Bettany Hughes featured a 5000 year old Neolithic settlement showing homes of both layered stone and another with bent, rounded thatch and stick walls. Angled clay or wooden walls might also afford the better construction of both Nordic and Danish Viking structure building - rounded wooden support beams and such. As far as Gothic construction goes, adding long, sloped walls and long sloped wall arches to create flying buttresses would be pleasant.

    The tool in mind would be the bow itself, predating the crossbow by 3000 years and reigning as a premier weapon for hunting or war for common and inexpensive use for much longer. I doubt in any age a crossbow would be the 'commoners choice' for hunting. Far to clunky to hunt with and a bit expensive to make.

    The fact that 'Medieval' Engineers is so wonderfully open to architectural interpretation could make almost any historical era acceptable up to the Renaissance possible.
     
  30. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    >>> i say we can always go back, and this thought spurs me to ask "what would be the LAST possible date ME could push itself into, the latest period?" a tad fun twist to it all, we can always use historical building practices but where is our stop date, and i focus on gunpowder? i say this game with the exception of the pumpkins stops at 1399 a.d.; i havent researched that date but will later because i am bored. maybe its 1396...

    @lupine, you're just a mod away from a Saxon Building Set. So in my mind this game should be forced finished this year, then with the foundation i believe ME will spawn a plethora of different archi/cosmetic building sets from our great mod folks, but no one will do this yet because ME is a moving target.... Also, i would like to build a fortified farm lupine in your world like at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokesay_Castle .

    Also regarding weapons -- we need all peasant weapons usable!!!! also spear and all the standard fair needs adding, i want much like the Mod folks to see this expanded deep into pole-arm types etc. There are several good televised historical series which always depict that milita set of farmers with their field tools. We all know a sword was as rare as a .50 sniper rifle today? but hoes, scythes, pitchforks were commonly used (and we know in East a lot of the martial art weapons are villagers commoners farmers implements). So lets get a bow, but also a glaive-guisarme... no wait, scheisse only if its before 1399 a.d.?

    [​IMG]

    @Ghost, the first melody music was by Jars of Clay c. 55 a.d., they were live in Tyre by the docks. some argue Judas Priest played Vienna c. 1386 a.d.

    (p.s. on the bow - this is dumb me asking but why cant we just take the crossbow graphic in ME, turn it 90 degrees, and remove the stock and voilà we got a bow? seriously cant a crossbow in a game/code always go back to a bow - its just removing some graphics, the coding is the same as far as i care, this is so simply weird to me, someone slap me why you cant strip a crossbow into a bow)
     
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